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cavallino

The Schumacher Thread

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That alone shows how religious you two are about MS... And dont tell me you call me these things because of my mistakes about 2002, cause I know that if I made these mistakes in order to hype him, I am sure you would be very nice to me...

You're getting too defensive. All I meant was if you make a big statement like "Schumacher hasn't proven enough in F1" it won't hurt to get basic facts right.

But of course, convincing everybody I am stupid and dont understand anything about F1 is easier than to answer (for instance) how come MS did not destroy Nelson Piquet in Bennetton... And actually got beaten by the only serious competitor...

I could make a long post post about NP beat him by HALF a point and he had car issues, was in his rookie year straight out of Sports car, didn't even know some tracks. But I can't be bothered. If you want to find out how good he was as a driver in a 15 year long career, you don't make much of a point even if you can prove that NP beat him comprehensively in his first partial rookie season. It really isn't that important.

For God sake, is it that difficult to admit his 2003 season was not that brilliant? And that in 2006 he was not WDC because there was a better driver out there? And that 2002 and 2004 (despite my brainfade) was easily won because of a dominant car? (Nothing wrong with that: Prost also won in a dominant car which does not make him any lesser...)

:wacko: Ok, what exactly is it that you are asserting? All of this has nothing to do with what you posted earlier :S

So it is inexcusable to make mistakes on statistics, but it is excusable to say that BAR back in 2004 should be excellent because it was designed by the same team that designed Brawn2009????? (Cavalino said it... Do you want me to copy and paste quoting him??? It is in the same thread)

I didn't say that. And you got your basic facts wrong that time too.

Well, if you have a look, you will see that Schumi's first race in the 91 season was in a Jordan and he didn;t even get to do the 1st lap because the car broke. Then he went to Benetton for the next race and in his 2nd race in his 2nd team he actually finished ahead of Piquet in the race. They had 5 races together and Schumi didn't finish 2 of those races, 1 was an engine break down, I think and the other was either a collision or a mistake at Adelaide (I can't find out how he went off) in torrential conditions, they only raced for 16 laps, I think. Piquet finished on 4.5 pts (due to only getting half points for the Adelaide race) and Schumi finished on 4 pts for the races they had together.

Wow, you actually bothered!

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So it is inexcusable to make mistakes on statistics, but it is excusable to say that BAR back in 2004 should be excellent because it was designed by the same team that designed Brawn2009????? (Cavalino said it... Do you want me to copy and paste quoting him??? It is in the same thread)

I didn't say that. And you got your basic facts wrong that time too.

Yes, you did.

Here are your exact words:

You would also know that the same BAR team under a different name was responsible for the design of last year's championship winning car.
All I meant was if you make a big statement like "Schumacher hasn't proven enough in F1" it won't hurt to get basic facts right.

By "not enough" I meant no one have seen him against a real competitor...

Wether you like it or not, this IS a fact.

Well... not quite... we could say we have seen against FA in 2006 in similar cars, and MS lost because of his mistakes. FA made almost no mistake that year...

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I could make a long post post about NP beat him by HALF a point and he had car issues,

Oh... I see... Now the circunstance matters...

How about Kimi in 2003... How many "car issues" did he have???

So you admit Kimi was a better driver in 2003, even driving a one-year old car? Please answer this and I promise I will stop debating "sensitive subjects" :)

Anyway, I said NP and MS battle was well balanced, with a small advantage to NP. Again, as I said it before, did not prove NP was better. Only proved it is not clear cut that MS is that much about everyone else...

(Once again, my point is not to say MS is not superb... but there are media-fed myths and religions about him... I just want to show that there are other drivers who may be even better, they only did not have the same opportunities.)

About rookies excuses...

There are also the "retiring excuses" for the other side...

LH faced FA in Mcl. Not an old and retiring FA...

Edited by shields

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Oh... I see... Now the circunstance matters...

How about Kimi in 2003... How many "car issues" did he have???

So you admit Kimi was a better driver in 2003, even driving a one-year old car? Please answer this and I promise I will stop debating "sensitive subjects" :)

Car issues that stopped him finishing a race?? Errrrmm.......1 ??

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By "not enough" I meant no one have seen him against a real competitor...

See, that's a stupid thing to say. And however many times you say it, it will still remain stupid. Just because he hasn't driven in exactly the same car with your favourite driver as his teammate doesn'tm ean he has never faced competition. In 15 years he raced against the best, sometimes in better cars, sometimes in worse one, sometimes in similar ones. And his record is there for anyone to see.

FA made almost no mistake that year...

Are you f#$king kidding me? Go back watch the 2006 season or read autosport's detailreviews. You're ignorant. If you want to argue that overall Alonso was probably just the better driver, it would be worth discussing. I am not gonig into the Alonso doens't make mistakes myth :yawn:

So you admit Kimi was a better driver in 2003, even driving a one-year old car?

No he wasn't. And he lost the championship. Isn't that how you measure the who is the better driver? So Kimi lost in 2003 therefore he is the better driver, whereas Alonso won in 2006 so he is the better driver?

Please answer this and I promise I will stop debating "sensitive subjects" :)

Why do you assume I want you to stop? I don't, you can go on embarrassing yourself for all I care.

Only proved it is not clear cut that MS is that much about everyone else...

You don't get it. Even if you wrote a 300 flawlessly argued Phd thesis about NP vs MS, it wouldn't prove a damn thing. A handful of races in his rookie year have very limited relevance in making an overall judgement. You are not short of data to help you reach conclusions, there's 15 years worth of it. Why you are picking a small outlier to make a point is beyond me.

but there are media-fed myths and religions about him... I just want to show that there are other drivers who may be even better, they only did not have the same opportunities.)

And you are doing a crap job of it. You're doing a crap job of convincing anyone that he didn't race against the top drivers of the last 15 years and do bloody well by any standards. You're doing a crap job of proving your insinuation that he made it to F1 due to something other than his competence as a driver. You have some weird conspiracy theory notion in your head that the media and the media is conspiring to make MS look good. You are obdurately obstinate, and utterly unwilling to approach things with an open mind.

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Yes, you did.

Here are your exact words:

Yes that's exactly what I said...

EXCEPT FOR THE "shud be excellent" you sneaked in to alter the entire meaning of what I posted. Intellectual dishonesty at its finest.

You are arguing semantics, and being intentionally obtuse, I clarified what I said perfectly well in an earlier post, if it bothers you so much, go read it.

By "not enough" I meant no one have seen him against a real competitor...

You haven't. Everyone else seems to have. You have some rare extreme form of myopia that the only car you can see on the grid is his teammate.

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Car issues that stopped him finishing a race?? Errrrmm.......1 ??

No car issues that hampered his chance to get points that would make a difference in the WDC...

Like being crashed by others without any fault,

Like engine switch with grid penalties, or any of the likes that might have happened to him that season...

Not even talking about FIA-tyre "adjustment"...

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No car issues that hampered his chance to get points that would make a difference in the WDC...

Like being crashed by others without any fault,

Like engine switch with grid penalties, or any of the likes that might have happened to him that season...

Not even talking about FIA-tyre "adjustment"...

Ok, I'll go for 2 then. How many is it??

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Yes that's exactly what I said...

EXCEPT FOR THE "shud be excellent" you sneaked in to alter the entire meaning of what I posted. Intellectual dishonesty at its finest.

You are arguing semantics, and being intentionally obtuse, I clarified what I said perfectly well in an earlier post, if it bothers you so much, go read it.

So what was your point then?

(When you said, in the context that BAR was a serious threat, that

"You would also know that the same BAR team under a different name was responsible for the design of last year's championship winning car."
)

Were you saying that for nothing????? Just to make longer posts??????

(Note I am still being polite with you... despite all your frustrated tentatives of insulting me... You know you wont win any discussion that way, dont you? :) )

You may know every statistics about F1, and I take my hat to you...

But that does not mean that you know how to think and use them unbiased and appropriately...

For instance, the smallest tiniest slightest mention of the fact that BAR and Brawn were the same basic team under different names (as you said) shows you dont know anything about what is F1, its key essence, how it is run and ultimately what makes a driver win and be worshiped by millions...

So what is worse, not remember when FIA changed the points system (they change the rule all the time, and I am sick of it) or thinking there is ANY RELEVANCE in mentioning BAR and Brawn was basically the same team, forgetting how often engineers and designers switch teams carrying secrets and other stuffs... ???

I dont know about you, but I sincerely prefer not knowing all the statistics, but to be able to think and understand what F1 is all about...

Edited by shields

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Ok, I'll go for 2 then. How many is it??

Enough to get 2 or 3 more points and be the WDC in a car that clearly was not the best... (Of course a one-year old car even with updates could not compete with a Ferrari in the same level... More so after FIA making Michelin redesign and produce several new tyres for all their teams in a short time frame - one week? If I am not mistaken, in a coincidently good time to give Ferrari a good chance at Monza...)

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I am indeed fully aware that rectums has a c not an s, but it was just too satisfying so I thought I'd slip it in.

EDIT (in the interest of clarity) slip the word 'rectum' in the post, not the post in the rectum.

Just so we're clear then, you are gay? Is that what you are trying to tell us? Why not just type "I am Adam and I am gay". Be proud.

Are we talking about sex here?

Not with you, freak.

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About rookies excuses...

There are also the "retiring excuses" for the other side...

LH faced FA in Mcl. Not an old and retiring FA...

Not an old and retiring FA... Just leaving McLaren ASAP.

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Enough to get 2 or 3 more points and be the WDC in a car that clearly was not the best... (Of course a one-year old car even with updates could not compete with a Ferrari in the same level... More so after FIA making Michelin redesign and produce several new tyres for all their teams in a short time frame - one week? If I am not mistaken, in a coincidently good time to give Ferrari a good chance at Monza...)

Without factoring in what happened to his rivals, it's a fairly moot point to make. It's very rare for any driver/team to go through an entire season without some mis-haps, it's all part of the ride. For example, how many failures, bad luck, etc did JPM have that season? He was in with a shout of the title too.

Regarding the tyres, it is only like most of the other incidents in the FIA circus, moveable floors, flexing wings, mass dampers, etc, etc.

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Ahhhh...so thats how Andres lost his hair......

Yes. Rankin-Bass even made a TV show about it.

I have difficulty in memorizing facts, I confess, as I am a technical guy and a short number of neurons quickly got occupied with technical things like aerodynamics and turbulence (I work with CFD) and engineering in general - That is what F1 is about... Not if this driver is better than the other - or should I say "my driver is better than yours".

With all due respect, F1 is nothing without the drivers. It's all about the drivers. The machines they drive just make it more interesting. Case in point, what would be more interesting to watch 1) All the F1 cars, without drivers, being driven via computers or 2) All the current F1 drivers in a kart race. Most would watch the kart race and look for the computer race results in the morning paper.

Cav, reading this little dance between you and shields, I'm reminded of our past dances........did I ever sound that idiotic? Probably........(and I probably still do...ah well)

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With all due respect, F1 is nothing without the drivers. It's all about the drivers. The machines they drive just make it more interesting. Case in point, what would be more interesting to watch 1) All the F1 cars, without drivers, being driven via computers or 2) All the current F1 drivers in a kart race. Most would watch the kart race and look for the computer race results in the morning paper.

Probably the winner would be case 3).

All the current F1 drivers, driving 2005 V10 3.0 L. cars (more than one set of tyres allowed for the race) on a superrealistic simulator where they had high voltage attached to their #[email protected]##@ to make them stay awake and flat out.

Actually, don't let Bernie&Max read this. Pheeeew... Max's gone. We only have to worry about Bernie. unsure.gif

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Just so we're clear then, you are gay? Is that what you are trying to tell us? Why not just type "I am Adam and I am gay". Be proud.

sorry to disappoint, but I like vaginas.

EDIT - so in theory, I should be all for a schumi comeback.

*runs and hides*

Edited by adamstrags

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Breaaaak time!! Remember when LDM said Kimi's twin was racing in 08. And then he said somewhat similar for Schumacher when he signed for Mercedes. This guy named Mikael came up with this story, its quite funny!

Monte: All the Alonsos of my life:

Montezemolo looked at his wife over his morning coffee and rememberedlast evening for a moment. During a business meeting and while having adrink afterwards his wife had clearly been keeping up some kind of aflirting game with a youngster. Monte was thinking while the coffeesteam was vibrating between him and his wife if he even knew his wifeanymore - or was the woman from yesterday some other wife he didn'tknow about. One can only guess what she is up to.

Oh well, Monte shook off all the gloomy thoughts off his mind whiledrinking the last drops of coffee and started to think about thetesting week's challenges. The journey to the track went well, themorning rush was only beginning. It didn't take more time than it takessmoking a cigarre when he already heard the singing sound coming fromF1-engines through his open window. Then he forgot all about the lovedones who had changed their form, his wife, Schumi and Kimi - not tomention his children.

Monte saw straight away his proteg

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You haven't. Everyone else seems to have. You have some rare extremeform of myopia that the only car you can see on the grid is histeammate.

I tend to avoid comparing to drivers in other cars, cause fan-boys usually are convinced that whenever their idol got beaten, it must have been because his car was not able to compete and their driver did an amazing job putting the car where it does not belong...

Do you want to give it a try?

Let us see how you will behave:

1- FA was a better driver when he beat MS.

2- Mika too...

To avoid this childish and never conclusive discussion about who had the best car, I tend to be objective (dont know if you understand this word) and keep concentrated on the similar cars... which is the case for teammates (even so, teammates car may be very different, as in the very least, one car maybe more suited to one driver than to his teammate... unless you believe Rubens was 1.5 seconds slower than Button when he arrived at Honda. You probably dont believe so, since you already stated that Rubens was a top driver)

By "not enough" I meant no one have seen him against a real competitor...

See, that's a stupid thing to say. And however many times you say it,it will still remain stupid. Just because he hasn't driven in exactlythe same car with your favourite driver as his teammate doesn'tm ean hehas never faced competition. In 15 years he raced against the best,sometimes in better cars, sometimes in worse one, sometimes in similarones. And his record is there for anyone to see.

First of all, I dont have a fav driver. I love to see all fighting, no matter who wins... I recognize however there are overated drivers and underated ones. I tend to be more happy and the underated ones win for the sake of justice only.

For the hundredth time you call me stupid. So let us see how many forumers really think that MS teammate drivers really provide a good reference for comparison, as they were all top drivers and all of them were clearly allowed to fight... (as if Austria 2002 was just some twisted creation of this stupid guy called Shields)

Please, every forumer recognizing a teammate (other than NP) clearly was allowed to fight MS, write your name here...

(about Austria2002 - I am not against team order cause it always existed in F1... But when some driver receives an order like in AU2002 which was almost a threat, it becomes evident (for those who can and want to see) that Rubens would never be allowed to "compete" with MS, and that his job was to help him...)

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1- FA was a better driver when he beat MS.

2- Mika too...

....aaaand that's why Schumi won many more titles than both put together, is it? To be honest, I'm not saying that Mika and Alonso are bad drivers, but I really find it funny how people say "Alonso (Or Mika, in this example) is a better driver than Michael". For me, the numbers speak for themselves. Everything else comes down to opinion. And on numbers alone, Michael is comfortably a better driver than both.

Edited by JHS

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You missed the context in which I said FA and Mika have beaten MS.

Cav complained that I only compare teammate drivers, and I explained him that if I compared drivers in different teams, a fanboy would always say that whenever his fav driver was beaten, it was because of the car... It would never be because he was not that brilliant that season...

Cav (the guy who keeps calling me stupid) cannot make his own mind...

He cannot admit FA was better and beat MS in 2006. Yet he keeps saying that I am miope because I cannot see competitors outside the team...

I always find difficult to tell exactly which was the best car, apart from a few dominated seasons. But if there was one season where the main competitors had very similar-in-performance car, it was (or at least one of them) was 2006.

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