So!!! What About Jpm? Huh!!!

[ecapdeville 0]

P17 instead of P7? You must be kidding. However, if I had a choice, I would prefer P17 too. 

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

P9 would be enough...out of points...

[Jenson_Rules 0]

P9 would be enough...out of points...

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

indeed

[Shadow 0]

gosh from your posts one would definitely think Montoya's Mclaren drove on its own. the guy clawed back from 20th on the grid to finish on the podium why compare a performance like that to JB( who also drove a strong race). in my opinion comparison should be to something like Barrichello's win in germany and even that i think you can't do because these are induvidual performances that come not too frequently and in varying conditions( weather etc) so just praise it and be done.

[Jenson_Rules 0]

gosh from your posts one would definitely think Montoya's Mclaren drove on its own. the guy clawed back from 20th on the grid to finish on the podium why compare a performance like that to JB( who also drove a strong race). in my opinion comparison should be to something like Barrichello's win in germany and even that i think you can't do because these are induvidual performances  that come not too frequently and in varying conditions( weather etc) so just praise it and be done.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

If raikonnen had not retired JPM would have been more than 40 secs behind the winner! Also JPM deserves no praise as he could have won this race but instead make such a silly error in quali. He deserves little praise!

[Sato 0]

Great race, a shame about Saturdays effort though, he relly could of won, even if Kimi had stayed in the game.

It was nice to see him really apologising to his team for it too, i really liked hearing that. well done JPM.

[foxtrot023 0]

Didn't MS overtake JB at the first corner?? Despite starting 2nd, he dropped to 4th before the end of first lap.

JB only managed to overtake MS (which he shouldn't have to in the first place) because the Ferrari was not as fast and his tyres were lousy.

Does anyone here seriously think JB could've overtaken MS if they were driving the same car...

Regarding my earlier post about Flavio's gay love over FA, I meant it as a joke, because they were constantly hugging (after a victory), and Flavio always praise and smiles at FA.

I thought it was obvious that I was joking, but it has created 2 pages of unnecessary arguments, so I apologize.

And JPM drove a solid race, I would say currently he has the best package (car + driver) behind FA and KR. KR and JPM still need more luck though.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Luck has nothing to do with it (although if I ever see KR climb aboard the same airplane I am in, trust me, I will get the hell out of that airplane ). What KR needs in order to win the WDC is a reliable car, which is what FA has.

[Max Mosley 2]

I thought only JV fans did that

JPM has had a great couple of races.  He started last and finshed ahead of JB.  I think that pretty much says it all.  That fact is JB did have a very good perfomance today as well, making  the JPM feat even more impressive.

I am wondering how you can logically give the race to a guy who started 2nd and finished behind the guy that started 20th.  To do so IMO only shows some personal bias and not a very objective viewpoint.  Seems like others on the forum are of the same opinion. 

My guys race was over before it started.  Terribly disappointing weekend for a JV fan.  Never really got to see anything positive or negative becuase of all the bumping.  Too bad for JV because he needs to impress and this race, for him, was a  non event.

Onlly thing positve was his qualifying, and even then he was beat by his team-mate by somehting like .003 of a second..

Massa got the most out of the Sauber.  Very good drive for him.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

You have misunderstood again, although this time you have been mislead first by Monty and then by Fed Up - both of whom like JPM. There is no what if here - we are disagreeing about how to interpret the evidence before us. That is, who actually did best, mistakes and all?

It is quite easy to logically give the weekend to a guy who on paper didn't do as well because they don't have equal machinery. JB did the best he could realistically have hoped for before the weekend: be the best non-McLaren/Renault. Whereas JPM was beaten by a slower car. Therefore JB was the better driver over the weekend when you account for the cars driven.

Actually I think the best driver was probably KR who started first and finished last so I assume everyone accepts that results don't tell the whole story?

[Max Mosley 2]

It was nice to see him really apologising to his team for it too, i really liked hearing that. well done JPM.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Indeed.

[Monty 0]

You have misunderstood again, although this time you have been mislead first by Monty and then by Fed Up - both of whom like JPM.  There is no what if here - we are disagreeing about how to interpret the evidence before us.  That is, who actually did best, mistakes and all?

It is quite easy to logically give the weekend to a guy who on paper didn't do as well because they don't have equal machinery.  JB did the best he could realistically have hoped for before the weekend: be the best non-McLaren/Renault.  Whereas JPM was beaten by a slower car.  Therefore JB was the better driver over the weekend when you account for the cars driven.

Actually I think the best driver was probably KR who started first and finished last so I assume everyone accepts that results don't tell the whole story?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

No one is trying to mislead anyone in this forum Murray. A person like YHR is intelligent enough to analyse the situation with no outside influence.

Intrepretion of evidence is simple as long as you don't try to give it a complete different meaning ( like BAR's intrepretation of ballast is wrong) A driver screws up big time in the qualifying, then comes back to the race puts his heart and soul together and drives a race to secure 2nd. This is outstanding, because he made up for his mistake. Remember the only drivers whom he didn't pass were Kimi and Alonso, and one of them retired and the other is the current champoinship leader. ( Even the great MS with a faster car couldn't pass Alonso in Imola) That is where the greatness of a driver lies Murray, ackowledging ones mistake taking responsibilty and showing what he is capable of by getting on the podium. Had kimi not retired he would have still been on the podium, and jenson would have lost the podium, so be thankful that Kimi retired.

Jenson arguably with the 3rd fastest car should have overtaken MS earlier in order to have a buffer. Remember Silverstone where Montoya pulled a lead of over 7 seconds before the second pit stop to keep Alonso behind him. That is what racing is about. Jenson overtook MS in lap 44 and then pits in lap 46, that really doesn't give him any advantage.

Murray it has become evident that you have joined some of the posters in the forum who will not give any credit to JPM, no matter what he does. That is a very sad state of affairs as the debate loses its objectivity.

[CC 0]

For the record, I think Montoya did a better job than Button. Montoya had to race through the whole field and met his match only when he was second to Alonso and it would have also been Kimi if he had a reliable engine. Button did a very good to fend off every one else bar Alonso, Kimi and Montoya as well, but he did not come up from 20th, he in fact lost ground from his starting position.

[ecapdeville 0]

Its really obvious that JPM did a better race than JB, he could pass a lot of cars in a intelligent way, he has the fastest car (not the better), and a good team with great estrategy, in the other side of the coin, JB really fought to catch a podium this time...you cant compare a Mclaren with a BAR...by results JPM had a better race and JB did an extraordinary one.

[monza gorilla 1]

My vote goes to JPM, but takes nothing away from JB. It would have gone to KR though if he'd kept going.

[Max Mosley 2]

Murray it has become evident that you have joined some of the posters in the forum who will not give any credit to JPM, no matter what he does. That is a very sad state of affairs as the debate loses its objectivity.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Not at all Monty. For instance you only have to look at my last post (the one immediately before the post of yours that I'm quoting) to see that I do give him credit sometimes. He drove a good race too. Surely you can have no complaints now?

However I still think JB had a better weekend than JPM when the cars are taken into account. My reasons are thus: JB could reasonably only have been asked to be the best after McLaren and Renault. He bettered this aim. Montoya could reasonably be expected to win the race. He failed despite the only car that was equal to his own retiring.

If you want to say JPM had the better race then thats fine but he had a terrible qualifying that he couldn't completely recover from because he didn't win. Therefore overall he didn't have an amazing weekend, as I originally said.

[Max Mosley 2]

For the record, I think Montoya did a better job than Button. Montoya had to race through the whole field and met his match only when he was second to Alonso and it would have also been Kimi if he had a reliable engine. Button did a very good to fend off every one else bar Alonso, Kimi and Montoya as well, but he did not come up from 20th, he in fact lost ground from his starting position.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I disagree with your logic here. Falling back from your starting position is not necessarily a sign of a bad race. For instance you may have chosen a different strategy and put less fuel in for qualifying or chosen softer tyres etc. Alternatively your competitors in faster cars may simply have made mistakes in qualifying. It does not necessarily follow that if you get passed in the race for these reasons that you were driving worse than them in the race. In this case JB had less fuel in qualifying and was only ahead of JPM due to his mistakes.

[Fed up 0]

Not at all Monty.  For instance you only have to look at my last post (the one immediately before the post of yours that I'm quoting) to see that I do give him credit sometimes.  He drove a good race too.  Surely you can have no complaints now?

However I still think JB had a better weekend than JPM when the cars are taken into account.  My reasons are thus: JB could reasonably only have been asked to be the best after McLaren and Renault.  He bettered this aim.  Montoya could reasonably be expected to win the race.  He failed despite the only car that was equal to his own retiring.

If you want to say JPM had the better race then thats fine but he had a terrible qualifying that he couldn't completely recover from because he didn't win.  Therefore overall he didn't have an amazing weekend, as I originally said.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

You are not being objective in your assessment here - Jenson Button qualified ahead of MS with less fuel but still managed to lose out to the Ferrari at the start. I agree that he may have finished ahead of JPM if not for his poor start, but as you know, the starts are a fundamental part of F1 racing, so ifs and buts are irrelevant here.

JPM made a mistake in qualifying - Period!! - It was his fault, he admitted as much publicly - there was no claim of oil on the circuit or whatever, he just put his hand up and admitted his error - the best he could hope for was a points finish from the back of the grid, but he drove a fantastic race to finish 2nd.

Why cant you isolate the two performances. When you can you will understand why I rated JPM's performance, on race day, over JB's

[Shadow 0]

you know Fed Up your last line, i am completely in agreement with it.

[Max Mosley 2]

If you want to say JPM had the better race then thats fine but he had a terrible qualifying that he couldn't completely recover from because he didn't win.  Therefore overall he didn't have an amazing weekend, as I originally said.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Why cant you isolate the two performances. When you can you will understand why I rated JPM's performance, on race day, over JB's

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

As you can see Fed Up I have already anticipated your response. Now, who had the better weekend is surely the more interesting question?

[CC 0]

I disagree with your logic here.  Falling back from your starting position is not necessarily a sign of a bad race.  For instance you may have chosen a different strategy and put less fuel in for qualifying or chosen softer tyres etc.  Alternatively your competitors in faster cars may simply have made mistakes in qualifying.  It does not necessarily follow that if you get passed in the race for these reasons that you were driving worse than them in the race.  In this case JB had less fuel in qualifying and was only ahead of JPM due to his mistakes.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I never said Button dropping a place was a bad thing, he did well in Germany. However I was comparing going from 20th to 2nd, and 2nd to 3rd, irrelevant of their machinery, Montoya did a better job. And you said it yourself, Button was only ahead of Montoya because of stupid mistake by the Columbian, had it not been for that mistake, then Montoya would have beaten Button in Qualifying and more so in the race. Montoya have mad a howler out of Qualifying, but he recovered well and finished second, behind a superb Alonso and would have been behind Kimi if his engine help together.

[Monty 0]

As you can see Fed Up I have already anticipated your response.  Now, who had the better weekend is surely the more interesting question?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Lets not reinterpret things to suit our posts. All that matters is who delivers the goods on race day. In Imola, MS screwed up in qualifying, but half way through the race, showed his blistering pace and was on Alonso's tail. FIA did not say you came close to passing Alonso, so instead of 8 points we will give you 9. They didn't say to JPM, eventhough you came second we'll award you only 7 points instead of 8 because you screwed up in Qualifying.

Wake up Murray, Who scores the most number of points during the race is what matters to the team, to the drivers and to the sponsors. IF you want to take the enitre weekend and say Jenson did better, be my guest, but that is not going to alter the points table in any shape or form.

[Max Mosley 2]

If you want to say JPM had the better race then thats fine but he had a terrible qualifying that he couldn't completely recover from because he didn't win.

[Max Mosley 2]

I never said Button dropping a place was a bad thing, he did well in Germany. However I was comparing going from 20th to 2nd, and 2nd to 3rd, irrelevant of their machinery, Montoya did a better job. And you said it yourself, Button was only ahead of Montoya because of stupid mistake by the Columbian, had it not been for that mistake, then Montoya would have beaten Button in Qualifying and more so in the race. Montoya have mad a howler out of Qualifying, but he recovered well and finished second, behind a superb Alonso and would have been behind Kimi if his engine help together.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I still disagree with you. You can't compare drivers without also taking their machinery into consideration. After doing so you might possibly, although I wouldn't, conclude that JPM still did better though.

[Fed up 0]

I have no need to reiterpret things because as you can see I had already anticipated your response too.  I can't understand how everyone can misunderstand 2 sentances.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

In all honesty Murray, I think JPM had a relatively strong weekend - Admittedely he was slower than KR in the 4 test sessions but, apart from the one slip up on the final corner in qualifying, I think his pace was way above JB's.

[Monty 0]

Ok Murray. We have reached an impasse. I give up.

You are obstinate, and your stubborness in refusing to have an objective approach leads us nowhere.

[Max Mosley 2]

Ok Murray. We have reached an impasse. I give up.

You are obstinate, and your stubborness in refusing to have an objective approach leads us nowhere.

[CC 0]

I still disagree with you.  You can't compare drivers without also taking their machinery into consideration.  After doing so you might possibly, although I wouldn't, conclude that JPM still did better though.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I am still in agreement with the majority of people that Montoya did a better job than Button, not that I am devaluing Button's race. As we saw in Silverstone it is very difficult this season to progress through the field, Kimi was stuck behind Kimi for ages seemingly. Montoya not only avoided all the mayhem on the first lap at Hockeheim, he also took advantage of it and moved up nearly half the field in one lap and then Ralf a few laps later. That, in my opinion, is brilliant, and should be commended by all.