So!!! What About Jpm? Huh!!!

[Max Mosley 2]

In all honesty Murray, I think JPM had a relatively strong weekend - Admittedely he was slower than KR in the 4 test sessions but, apart from the one slip up on the final corner in qualifying, I think his pace was way above JB's.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

OK I appreciate your opinion. I still think no one has answered my point that JPM was beaten both by his team-mate and by a driver in an inferior car whereas JB beat a superior car. You haven't really given any evidence that JPM's pace was stronger after their cars are accounted for either.

[Max Mosley 2]

I am still in agreement with the majority of people that Montoya did a better job than Button, not that I am devaluing Button's race. As we saw in Silverstone it is very difficult this season to progress through the field, Kimi was stuck behind Kimi for ages seemingly. Montoya not only avoided all the mayhem on the first lap at Hockeheim, he also took advantage of it and moved up nearly half the field in one lap and then Ralf a few laps later. That, in my opinion, is brilliant, and should be commended by all.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

You are free to agree with whoever you want of course. Just for the record I think you have evaded the issue I was raising. As for your comments above they are interesting but Silverstone is a different track and probably harder to overtake on than Hockenheim so this comparison, just like your earlier one, is not entirely fair imho. In addition KR got upto the same position that JPM did anyway. Of course JPM overtook more cars but then they were the slowest ones and quite a few had to pit early. I have already commended JPM's race performance too!

[Fed up 0]

OK I appreciate your opinion.  I still think no one has answered my point that JPM was beaten both by his team-mate and by a driver in an inferior car whereas JB beat a superior car.  You haven't really given any evidence that JPM's pace was stronger after their cars are accounted for either.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

KR was beaten by both his team mate and a driver in an inferior car and, come to think of it, the majority of the grid.

That is what will be recorded in the record books - Anything else is semantics

[Max Mosley 2]

Yes but to say "therefore Karty and Sato were better than him" is daft and can't be justified.

[Fed up 0]

Yes but to say "therefore Karty and Sato were better than him" is daft and can't be justified.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

The only thing that can be justified, Murray is the actual result

[Jenson_Rules 0]

I still disagree with you.  You can't compare drivers without also taking their machinery into consideration.  After doing so you might possibly, although I wouldn't, conclude that JPM still did better though.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

indeed. Taking into the weekend and respective machinery, JB was more impressive. I do admit JPM had a ''better'' race but he cannot be praised for it due to his silly error, as i keep saying!

[CC 0]

Just for the record I think you have evaded the issue I was raising.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Which was what? The Machinery, if so then its one thing having it, you have to use and Montoya did with good effect

[Max Mosley 2]

indeed. Taking into the weekend and respective machinery, JB was more impressive. I do admit JPM had a ''better'' race but he cannot be praised for it due to his silly error, as i keep saying!

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Exactly.

[Senna 0]

I agree with Murray and Ben. Jenson

[MontoyaFan-HatesJenson 0]

20th to 2nd.

2nd to 3rd.

I will play no further part in this discussion.

[Monty 0]

20th to 2nd.

2nd to 3rd.

I will play no further part in this discussion.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Excellent decision. Let the Bunsen fans live in a fantasy world along with their driver. He himself has given up winning this year, so all that they can hope for is getting the Star of the race award. So be it.

Food for thought:

IT TOOK JPM 5 RACES TO REACH HE PODIUM, AND IT TOOK BUNSEN 5 SEASONS TO REACH THE PODIUM OR IN OTHER WORDS 69 RACES

JB: 11 PODIUMS (NO VICTORY NO FAST LAPS)

JPM: 22 PODIUMS (5 VICOTRIES AND 11 FAST LAPS)

[Fed up 0]

I agree with Murray and Ben.  Jenson

[CC 0]

You're making it any easier for you

[JayStorm 0]

Does it really matter who was better between Montoya and button, the fact is that montoya finished 2 seconds infront of him and so scored an extra 2 points. Had Button been better with sorting out his contracts, he'd be in a better car and so he may have beaten Montoya...

JS.

[Fed up 0]

Does it really matter who was better between Montoya and button, the fact is that montoya finished 2 seconds infront of him and so scored an extra 2 points.  Had Button been better with sorting out his contracts, he'd be in a better car and so he may have beaten Montoya...

JS.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

well said

[pumpdoc 2]

Please strike me down with lightning so I no longer have to read this back an forth whinning---you said-he said-she said---no you are wrong, i'm right, I'm right. you are wrong blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

My grandkids act better

[Shadow 0]

[nojvnof1 0]

"My guys race was over before it started. Terribly disappointing weekend for a JV fan. Never really got to see anything positive or negative becuase of all the bumping. Too bad for JV because he needs to impress and this race, for him, was a non event."

tell me about it, the word disaster doesn't begin to decribe what it was like

As for this whole JPM/JB thing. Both drove good races, however I feel coming up from 20th to 2nd is a major feat no matter the car. It is very hard to pass in F1 now so for JPM to come through from last with a mixture of quick laps, pit strategy and passing moves, he did a great job. I think he was upto P11 after the first lap or two.

"Now, who had the better weekend is surely the more interesting question?"

how so? Points are awarded for the race, not what happens on the other two days. Whilst Saturday dictates what may happen, it's no use if you qualify 1st by a margin and not finish the race for whatever reason. JPM screwed up big time in quali, no doubts about that, however he made up for it very well in the race.

[Shadow 0]

[quote name='nojvnof1' date='Jul 26 2005, 01:21 PM']As for this whole JPM/JB thing. Both drove good races, however I feel coming up from 20th to 2nd is a major feat no matter the car. It is very hard to pass in F1 now so for JPM to come through from last with a mixture of quick laps, pit strategy and passing moves, he did a great job. I think he was upto P11 after the first lap or two.


[right][post="56143"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post][/right][/quote]

that's what i said this is an induvidual performance and comparison well.....how do you compare ... i am at a loss

[CC 0]

"My guys race was over before it started. Terribly disappointing weekend for a JV fan. Never really got to see anything positive or negative becuase of all the bumping. Too bad for JV because he needs to impress and this race, for him, was a non event."

tell me about it, the word disaster doesn't begin to decribe what it was like

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

As for this whole JPM/JB thing. Both drove good races, however I feel coming up from 20th to 2nd is a major feat no matter the car. It is very hard to pass in F1 now so for JPM to come through from last with a mixture of quick laps, pit strategy and passing moves, he did a great job. I think he was upto P11 after the first lap or two.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Correct.

"Now, who had the better weekend is surely the more interesting question?"

how so? Points are awarded for the race, not what happens on the other two days. Whilst Saturday dictates what may happen, it's no use if you qualify 1st by a margin and not finish the race for whatever reason. JPM screwed up big time in quali, no doubts about that, however he made up for it very well in the race.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Another well made point. How your weekend is perceived and judged is your race performance. For example; not many people will remember that Jacques was literally the length of a finger nail slower than his team-mate Massa in qualifying. He will be remembered (and rightfully so) for the incidents has was involved irrelevant of where the blame should be placed. It's the same with every one

[ksajoe 0]

The best car of the weekend was Maclaren followed by Renault & BAR - in that order. The vehicles finished the race according to their strengths , so there is no need to heap praise on JB or castigate JPM.

JPM made a mistake in qualifying, all top drivers have had their share of mistakes so far, so we cannot pretend to judge JPM by different standards (JB & FA walled their chargers during a race which is significantly less pressure than a qualifying lap!!).Had JPM been mid-grid he would have caused FA serious grief (and even maybe won), but to come from last to second is no mean feat, his track circumstances with KR were quite different and doing a "fastest" on the day for him presented no obvious advantages (KR was trying to pull a gap on Alonso, JPM could not have won the race given FA's gap - so where was the point in doing a stonking lap?).

[Max Mosley 2]

"Now, who had the better weekend is surely the more interesting question?"

how so? Points are awarded for the race, not what happens on the other two days. Whilst Saturday dictates what may happen, it's no use if you qualify 1st by a margin and not finish the race for whatever reason. JPM screwed up big time in quali, no doubts about that, however he made up for it very well in the race.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

The point is that he didn't because without the mistake he would have won almost certainly. This is a good demonstration of why the whole weekend matters and should be taken into account, not just race performance, which may be hampered by earlier ineptitude.

[Fed up 0]

The point is that he didn't because without the mistake he would have won almost certainly.  This is a good demonstration of why the whole weekend matters and should be taken into account, not just race performance, which may be hampered by earlier ineptitude.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

What are you trying to say Murray Do you have an axe to grind with JPM - It is obvious to most, excluding perhaps Senna and JR, that JPM had a good weekend under the circumstances -

I cant see why you are hell bent on fighting a one man crusade on this issue -

Weird:wacko:

[kiko01 0]

Regarding my earlier post about Flavio's gay love over FA, I meant it as a joke, because they were constantly hugging (after a victory), and Flavio always praise and smiles at FA.

I thought it was obvious that I was joking, but it has created 2 pages of unnecessary arguments, so I apologize.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Apologize? I haven

[Max Mosley 2]

What are you trying to say Murray   Do you have an axe to grind with JPM   - It is obvious to most, excluding perhaps Senna and JR, that JPM had a good weekend under the circumstances -

I cant see why you are hell bent on fighting a one man crusade on this issue -

Weird:wacko:

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

No. All I'm trying to do is to establish some fairly obvious facts.

For instance nojvnof1, you, Monty and others are suggesting that only race performance matters when obviously this is incorrect - if you spin in qualifying it affects your race, as it did to JPM because otherwise he would have won.

Another fact that amazingly people have disagreed with is the necessity of taking into account the cars driven.

Overall JPM was beaten by a slower car purely because of a mistake. Therefore, despite a good raceday performace, I don't see how he could have had a good weekend overall.

I just can't understand why you can keep disagreeing without providing any arguments or evidence. Anyway I can see I am not going to convince anybody here.