Ghosn: Team, Not Driver, Wins Titles.

[Jem of the Shire 0]

Yes but the Mclaren will be a car that needs tpo be driven aggressively as Kimi is very much the same.

yes that will be good for him then but I expect reliability is going to cause him problems

[Jenson_Rules 0]

Indeed, and the fact he doesnt have the team moulded around him, yet!

[Jem of the Shire 0]

Indeed, and the fact he doesnt have the team moulded around him, yet!

I doubt mclaren will mould around him. He doesnt deserve it anyway cos he's so ungrateful and doesnt appear to give a Sh#te about his team anyway

[Jenson_Rules 0]

too true

[Wez 0]

again wheres the proof, lets face iot the renault still is the same basic car as in 02 when alonso was the tesdriver, he has never had to fully adapt as its been made to measure.

In Alonso's debut season in a rubbish Minardi he consistly qualified & finished races ahead of much quicker cars in the pack with more exprianced drivers. At his time at Renault he has gone on to destroy several team mates in a car which is known for not being the easiest to drive.

He will be successful at Mclaren... If not next season then the season after on onwards.

Alonso is quickly becoming a formula 1 superstar!!!

[kenneth 0]

in someway i agree with Ghosn that the car win the title not the driver , but in other way with that thinking , why alonso win it not fisichella so , a bit of a driver there is >>>

[demonhorse 0]

One thing I have noticed is that the 2 races Alonso has been second to Schumi this year, in the press conference and on the podium, looking at his facial expression you'd think it was the end of the world. Face like a slapped a**e both times.

and sorry I still choose to believe KR is overrated.

[Autumnpuma 0]

Alright, the question was: can Alonso adapt his driving style to make the most out of his car. Jemstride and JR seem to think not. I've had this debate with funkejay and I'll re-post my argument.

Funny thing is, in that thread, both JR and Jemstride were saying the same stuff as in this thread. Did you two not read this or did it go over your head??

This is the last time I will try to teach you. Listen and learn, young padawans:

Okay, I found the issue (actually, it was two issues and the quotes were mixed among many people!)

F1 Racing, May, 2004

Concerning his 1999 Minardi test (in a car that cannot have been the best-handling, neutral or otherwise):

"In the F1 Minardi test, Fernando had been a cool 3.5 seconds quicker than his nearest rival"

That amount of gap suggests he is quick in a car totally unfamiliar to him.

After seeing Alonso go so quick, Cesare Fiorio of Minardi, frightened that Fernando would kill himself, yelled at Fernando to 'Stop, Fernando! Stop now'...when Alonso came in, Cesare told him 'You'll kill yourself!', to which Alonso replied 'I can promise you, sir, I was taking it easy. I was learning my way before going for it a bit later.'

Monza, 2003, after a shunt at the start, which meant he needed a new front wing, and a foray off-track which reduced his car's downforce by a huge 10% (Same F1 Racing issue as above---the 10% number supplied by Renault), Alonso still managed to finish in the points. This would be him coping with a neutral car that turned into an understeering one.

Silverstone 2003, he drove consistant race laps despite losing all electronic driver's aids. This would be him coping with a neutral car having a touch of oversteer.

Also in that same issue, Paul Monaghan (Alonso's 2003 race engineer) states of Fernando: "Fernando can put up with a great variety of car balances. He adjusts the way he drives to get the most out of what he's got" Monahan would know, better than anybody, the changing nature of the Renault chassis and how Alonso dealt with it.

If you look at his telemetry (Same issue as above) you can see Alonso throws his car into a turn. He uses small, quick steering inputs and tiny throttle blips to balance the car through the turn before slamming the throttle on exit.

This style of aggressive turn-in would cause a neutral and understeering car to oversteer. Once oversteer has been induced, his small, quick steering and throttle inputs would settle the back-end from stepping out. The way I see it, that telemetry proves to me that Alonso can handle both an understeering and neutral car by inducing oversteer at turn entry and 'dealing with it' at apex. I fail to see how this style requires a neutral set-up. If the car is oversteering, then Alonso would not throw it into a turn quite so hard; if it was understeering then he throws it a tad harder. All this is done instinctually despite what the car is set-up for.

This leads me to your quite correct point about cars these days. They all have a tendency towards understeer and, to compensate, Alonso throws his car hard at the turns. He induces oversteer. If you can induce oversteer and handle it, then you can deal with any type of car balance. The current McLaren is a very understeery car and if this holds true for the '07 car, then Alonso's turn-in style would negate much of that understeer--hence my point that Alonso will do well in the McLaren.

All these establish proof, albeit circumstantial, that Alonso is capable of being quick despite the car. C'mon, Jay, admit it's at least plausible

[cavallino 2]

Alright, the question was: can Alonso adapt his driving style to make the most out of his car. Jemstride and JR seem to think not. I've had this debate with funkejay and I'll re-post my argument.

Well 2004 with Trulli makes you think otherwise doesn't it? That said, I'd say it is more a question of how he does in a car that is difficul to drive, rather than whether the car suits him - a top driver today is more or less guaranteed to have a car that suits him - and if it doesn't the team will try to change it till it does. The question is how he will do in a car that can win races, but is also easy to lose and doesn't give him the margin that the Renaults of 05-6 have done.

[Autumnpuma 0]

In the same issue that I quoted above, there were instances listed of Fernando dealing with the Renault when it wasn't handling the best it could have.

In his first race with Renault, at a time when you would not have expected him to have a car that 'suits' him (he wasn't considered a top driver at the time, remember?), he managed to haul his car from dead last after a safety-car pitstop (with full fuel) to 7th. True, he was a tester for Renault, but the car was hardly built around him.

It boils down to this: Can you see the issue objectively or not?

[cavallino 2]

Felipe Massa did the same at Ferrari, in his second race. He was a tester too. He is young yet, I refuse to pass judgement. The indications are that he could have to fight for it this year. If he does, ask me again in a few months.

[Autumnpuma 0]

Felipe Massa did the same at Ferrari, in his second race. He was a tester too. He is young yet, I refuse to pass judgement. The indications are that he could have to fight for it this year. If he does, ask me again in a few months.

Massa has often had the quickest times through the speed traps all season. I'm impressed by him so far.

I'm of the belief that for the first few races this season Massa was allowed to race MS on equal-footing (because of the ambiguity of MS's contract situation). When it became clear that MS would race on until, perhaps, gaining his 8th championship, and indeed wanting that 8th to be this season, Massa was put into a 'support' role. All this is conjecture, by the way.

Under my argument above, I believe the first few races prove he's just as quick as the 'big boys'. The shunts at corner entry he's had seem to be him learning how to adjust the brake-bias (like MS does). This should pass.

Ferrari should consider keeping Massa in a race seat.

[foxtrot023 0]

Well 2004 with Trulli makes you think otherwise doesn't it?

Just to point out that until Monaco both Alonso and Trulli had the same points. The advantage Trulli got over Alonso came from Monaco and US, both of which Alonso did not finished and Trulli did. In both cases Alonso was ahead of Trulli (check out the races if you don

[nojvnof1 0]

Ghosn is right, to a certain extent. The team have done a brilliant job, no doubt about it. They've been managed brilliantly and have produced race winning machinery since '03. However a top line car is useless without a topline driver. It was up to either Alonso or Fisi to step up and claim the number 1 status, that's what Alonso did and top marks to him. Now we'll see just how good he really is in a totally new environment at McLaren. We know he's good, very good, but is he a great of the sport? That's what will be answered in his time at McLaren.

[Jem of the Shire 0]

Just to point out that until Monaco both Alonso and Trulli had the same points. The advantage Trulli got over Alonso came from Monaco and US, both of which Alonso did not finished and Trulli did. In both cases Alonso was ahead of Trulli (check out the races if you don

[foxtrot023 0]

If I remember rightly trulli outqualifed alonso at monaco and was always ahead? Anyway it was alonso's own fault that he tried that silly lapping move on ralf in the tunnel!

I dont know I would have to look it up. I agree, by the way, that Alonso should have overlaped Ralfie boy somewhere else

[Autumnpuma 0]

I dont know I would have to look it up. I agree, by the way, that Alonso should have overlaped Ralfie boy somewhere else

If memory serves, Ralfie moved left just as Alonso was trying the move. At that point in the tunnel, you don't move left, especially if the goal is to line your car up for the left-right chicane right after the tunnel.

Ralfie shares equal blame in that instance.

[tifosi too! 0]

Alonso crashed inside the tunnel and the bend inside is a flat-out right hander!Also he was a bit off the racing line in a dangerous place of a dangerous track!The chicane is further down!

[Autumnpuma 0]

Alonso crashed inside the tunnel and the bend inside is a flat-out right hander!Also he was a bit off the racing line in a dangerous place of a dangerous track!The chicane is further down!

Is english your first or second language? If it's your second language, then I excuse the constant misunderstandings. If it's your first, then I recommend you return to school for additional training.

My memory is suspect, as all memory is. I remember the television coverage showing Alonso overtaking Ralfie near the end of the tunnel, on the outside of the racing-line. At that point of the track, the correct racing-line is very tight to the right of the Tunnel. This is to set yourself up for the right-left Nouvelle Chicane which follows the Tunnel.

Now back to the coverage. At the point I described above, Ralfie went a little to the left (and I think slowed down abruptly...not sure ) just as Alonso was attempting the pass. Not a good place to attempt the pass, but he might have made it had Ralfie not shifted position.

This is what I remember, and I'm leaving the huge possibility open that I'm dead wrong.

[tifosi too! 0]

Is english your first or second language? If it's your second language, then I excuse the constant misunderstandings. If it's your first, then I recommend you return to school for additional training.

My memory is suspect, as all memory is. I remember the television coverage showing Alonso overtaking Ralfie near the end of the tunnel, on the outside of the racing-line. At that point of the track, the correct racing-line is very tight to the right of the Tunnel. This is to set yourself up for the right-left Nouvelle Chicane which follows the Tunnel.

Now back to the coverage. At the point I described above, Ralfie went a little to the left (and I think slowed down abruptly...not sure ) just as Alonso was attempting the pass. Not a good place to attempt the pass, but he might have made it had Ralfie not shifted position.

This is what I remember, and I'm leaving the huge possibility open that I'm dead wrong.

Its not my 1st language but i understand it quite well actually!And exactly what did i not understand???If its about other debates where you were unable to convince me (or anybody else) i assure you there is no language issue!As far as this specific "episode" i remember it very well!If you look it up in youtube you ll definetely find it!Both were to blame but Alonso mostly for not being patient!Just see it!Why talk about it you are not sure what happened??

[Autumnpuma 0]

Its not my 1st language but i understand it quite well actually!And exactly what did i not understand???If its about other debates where you were unable to convince me (or anybody else) i assure you there is no language issue!As far as this specific "episode" i remember it very well!If you look it up in youtube you ll definetely find it!Both were to blame but Alonso mostly for not being patient!Just see it!Why talk about it you are not sure what happened??

That was my original point:

If memory serves, Ralfie moved left just as Alonso was trying the move. At that point in the tunnel, you don't move left, especially if the goal is to line your car up for the left-right chicane right after the tunnel.

Ralfie shares equal blame in that instance.

Thank you for agreeing with me at last.

[tifosi too! 0]

Why not agree if thats how it is?I just watched it again out of curiosity!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z_IoFln96hY...alonso%20monaco

i guess it was a dumb moment for both drivers!But its not 50-50!Alonso was 2nd and was lapping Ralf and that move was quite amateur!I wouldn't do that even in a video game!!!

[Autumnpuma 0]

That video doesn't have the footage I remember...there is a camera that is inside the tunnel near the exit and it points out of the tunnel. It was that camera that showed Ralfie moving over..again, my memory could be wrong about the incident...

Also, if Alonso had just lost it on the outside for no reason other than losing control, why be mad at Ralfie as he clearly was...? No matter, it's a little issue anyway..

[tifosi too! 0]

I guess its always good to blame someone or something in F1!!I remember the camera view that you are talking about but i still dont know for sure if RS did something to cause the crash !A lot of mysterious incidents happen in that tunnel!Like MS and JPM!

[ecapdeville 0]

I guess its always good to blame someone or something in F1!!I remember the camera view that you are talking about but i still dont know for sure if RS did something to cause the crash !A lot of mysterious incidents happen in that tunnel!Like MS and JPM!

Or in Rascasse!

That Monaco track is jinx!