Massa Did Not Let 7 WDC Passed..... (sic)

[cavallino 2]

Ferrari did not use team orders at Indy. Here are the reasons.

1) Massa did his fastest lap on his in lap, even faster than Michael's in lap.

2) Both the pitstops were of exactly the same length, if you check formula1.com data. Ferrari could easily have fuelled Massa long for his second stint, giving him a slightly longer pit stop. Instead Massa actually took on less fuel than Michael, and according to ITV, his stopping time was less. Ferrari were probably trying to make the switch in the second stop by fuelling Michael longer.

3) Michael's pit entry was right on the edge, Massa's wasn't. This can clearly be seen by looking at the video.

4) Massa was much slower on his out lap as ITV told us. What they did not remind us is that when Michael went past, he put Albers between himself and Massa. Albers did not let Massa through until he was shown blue flags at the end of the back straight, when Albers went onto the grass. That is where Massa lost time. The gap was quite small when Michael went through, Massa probably missed it by only a second. Michael just passed Albers on the pit straight, if he hadn't Massa would have come out ahead. A set up job wouldn't be this close.

5) Lap data:

Michael made up crucial time, about 1.5 seconds in his in lap and out lap. That made the difference.

His lap just after his out lap was another blinder, despite the fact that he closed up on Albers on that lap. He was only .137 off his in lap despite the fuel load.

Whether Massa took on new tyres or not is not relevant, Michael stopped first.

A setup would be too easy, give Massa more fuel, Bring Massa in 3 laps early - anything.

[AutoRacer5 0]

Thus proving that Ferrari did not use team orders.

[Autumnpuma 0]

Thus proving that Ferrari did not use team orders.

Not in this instance.

Cav, thanks for posting the times. From the tv feed only, it looked like Massa should have come out ahead of M$ in the first pitstop. When M$ was shown blasting down the front straight well ahead of Massa (just exiting the pits) I was surprised and thought that the team held up Massa in the pits.

Looking at both Massa and M$' times for the race, you would have to conclude that Massa is a talent to be reckoned with. He was within three tenths of M$' times for much of the race. M$ was faster, as you would expect from his greater experience, but Massa was right there.

Cav, what site did you use for the lap times comparison?

[Sato 0]

Micheal went like 7 tenths faster in the middle sector of his outlap, then anyone before him.

I noticed this on the live timing as I watched the race, and figure Masa would be held up in the pits or told to go slower down the pit lane etc, and sure enough Michael would get through. I wouldn't be surprised if Massa didn't attack the pitlane (it didn't look like it) and then was a few k's under the speed limit, but I could not know this for sure.

Either way, Ferrari have used team orders plenty of times, so it doesn't matter.

[sevag00 0]

but Jean Todt said that they did team orders, to let massa pass MS, since MS is closer in the race of championship points than FM

[Jem of the Shire 0]

Yea come on guys don't be silly Todt even admitted it himself. And it would seem odd that Massa's first stop was after Schuey but his 2nd stop was before Schuey. Ferrari would have worked it all out before the race, just in case the situation came up where massa is ahead

[cavallino 2]

but Jean Todt said that they did team orders, to let massa pass MS, since MS is closer in the race of championship points than FM

Yea come on guys don't be silly Todt even admitted it himself. And it would seem odd that Massa's first stop was after Schuey but his 2nd stop was before Schuey. Ferrari would have worked it all out before the race, just in case the situation came up where massa is ahead

Todt did not admit anything.

Either way, Ferrari have used team orders plenty of times, so it doesn't matter.

Ah! Is that a Sato fan I see?

*holds mic up to his face.

Mr. Sato fan, as a long term critic of Ferrari's use of team orders, how do you feel about the preferential treatment given to Sato san this year?

Oh and Mike it's www.f1matrix.it, extremely useful site, unless you have access to forix of course.

[BradSpeedMan 6]

Yea come on guys don't be silly Todt even admitted it himself. And it would seem odd that Massa's first stop was after Schuey but his 2nd stop was before Schuey. Ferrari would have worked it all out before the race, just in case the situation came up where massa is ahead

Yes, this topic is rather insignificant. It does'nt matter if Michael passed Massa fairly or if he was let thru, at the first pitstop or at the second,...at the end of the day one has to look at the championship and who has the better chance of winning it.

[Jenson_Rules 0]

Indeed Brad, and lets face it, Massa aint going to be the 1 beating fernandildo to the trophey!

[narain fan 0]

Yea come on guys don't be silly Todt even admitted it himself. And it would seem odd that Massa's first stop was after Schuey but his 2nd stop was before Schuey.

that was bcoz after his 2nd stop Massa came out just ahead of alonso ,and in the process was responsible(atleast partly) for trulli and RS to pass FA comfortably,and MORE importantly be placed between GF and FA so that Reno dont do the "Fisi,Alonso is quicker ,let him....."

[cavallino 2]

Alonso was just slow, Massa coming out there was irrelevant.

[Sato 0]

Mr. Sato fan, as a long term critic of Ferrari's use of team orders, how do you feel about the preferential treatment given to Sato san this year?

Last time I checked, preferential treatment wasn't illegal, unlike the team orders Ferrari use.

Also Fisichella, who is one of (if not) your favourites, and he was involved in what was another blatant use of these orders.... How do you feel about that?

[kenneth 0]

there where team orders .. if no they would say so.... but from their answers it seems yes.....

so that time laps for me are nothing everyone can do to make it looks like it wasn't ...remeber F1 is a big toy of technology.....

[Taku 0]

Indeed Brad, and lets face it, Massa aint going to be the 1 beating fernandildo to the trophey!

i thought you were an alonso fan?

[cavallino 2]

Last time I checked, preferential treatment wasn't illegal, unlike the team orders Ferrari use.

So you are ok with blatant preferential treatment where Ide did not even have a sit made for him and now Montagny has to use an inferior gearbox? I didn't say it's illegal, I juist want your opinion. Team orders to win a championship are not ok, but giving inferior equipment to a driver every single race is?

Team orders were made illegal after Ferrari used them. That said Renault and Mclaren used them last year and this year, so I wouldn't blame Ferrari for using them now.

Also Fisichella, who is one of (if not) your favourites, and he was involved in what was another blatant use of these orders.... How do you feel about that?

Eh? I have never been opposed to team orders. I am glad they let Fisi go through when he was faster even though it took 20 odd laps, and he had to show that he was faster i.e. unlike Turkey last year, when Alonso was let through without doing anything to show that he was faster.

[mock 0]

Ferrari did not use team orders at Indy. Here are the reasons.

Fantastic analysis. Data does not lie

Not in this instance.

Cav, thanks for posting the times. From the tv feed only, it looked like Massa should have come out ahead of M$ in the first pitstop. When M$ was shown blasting down the front straight well ahead of Massa (just exiting the pits) I was surprised and thought that the team held up Massa in the pits.

Looking at both Massa and M$' times for the race, you would have to conclude that Massa is a talent to be reckoned with. He was within three tenths of M$' times for much of the race. M$ was faster, as you would expect from his greater experience, but Massa was right there.

Cav, what site did you use for the lap times comparison?

Cav always uses good data to back up his posts. Unfortunately last year despite data being presented and shown and points proved there were some time wasting scallywags who were bent upon having their opinions as the final and true ones and did indeed create many useless arguments because of this.......

but Jean Todt said that they did team orders, to let massa pass MS, since MS is closer in the race of championship points than FM

That is your interpretation being passed of as a fact

[SchumiDeSuck 0]

Simple answer:

'If you were Jean Todt, what would you do?'

[Loser Boy 0]

Kya re Cavallino , manna padega bhaari data hai ! kahan se leke aaya?

[cavallino 2]

They're just lap times.

btw this is how close Massa was when he came out

[sevag00 0]

todt told to public that they used team orders

[cavallino 2]

Boy you're one in a million aren't you.

Let's take this slowly.

When you make an assertion, you have to back it up.

We don't have to accept something just because you said so.

Is that clear?

Now go find out where Todt said that, get us a link and show us how this entire thread is pointless.

[sevag00 0]

really? you want the link, go and find it for yourself, remember when the race happened??? And that news is that much old.

[monza gorilla 1]

Todt refused to admit to shuffling the deck, and why not, because he would then have admitted a breach of the rules if he did. Anyone in the same situation would have been just as circumspect. Cav knows exactly what M. Todt said, which is why he is so sure of his ground.

[sevag00 0]

go and check what tifosi wrote, that is the news here is the link

http://www.totalf1.com/forums/index.phpsho...30entry126453

[tifosi too! 0]

go and check what tifosi wrote, that is the news here is the link

http://www.totalf1.com/forums/index.phpsho...30entry126453

Tifosi who????That link is not working!But if you think i said anything about Ferrari using team orders read it again!I 'm the one who started the anti-team order thing!!