Kimi Or Fernando, Your Choice

[Wez 0]

I like this guys posts

Welcome to TF1 by the way Shane!

[pabloh20 1]

I can give you the reasons why Alonso has never won a race in the wet:

Belgium 2004: Mechanical Failure (team error)

Belgium 2005: McLaren had the car advantage and everybody knows it

Hungary 2006: Wheel nut fell off when he had a comfortable lead, and would have won easily (team error)

China 2006: Was on the wrong tires, again team error.

There were 3 races classified as wet during 2004, 2 races classified as wet during 2005 and 2 classified as wet in 2006. He's won none. I did say for whatever reason, because I know he's had some failures, but it doesn't explain all of them. The site I am looking at actually has driving mistake next to Belgium 2004 - can somebody clarify this?

Even if you take your list, I would say only 2 can be classed as reasonable reasons not to win - Belgium 2004(if it was a mechanical failure) and Hungary 2006. However, it's just my opinion - I just feel that he has to prove himself in the wet as well as the dry before I can wholeheartedly say he is a truly great driver.

I think he has proven twice this year that he would easily have had the speed and skill to win in the wet.

But he hasn't won in the wet - it's as simple as that really isn't it? Do you not think other drivers have had bad luck whilst in with the possibility of winning a race in the wet or something?

And lets not kid ourselves, Michael was not exactly mistake free, now was he:

Britain 94: Passed hill on the formation lap, and refused to come in when he was shown the black flag

Adeliade 94: went off and stuffed it into the barrier (making amends by deliberately taking hill out)

Monaco 97: went straight on at sandevot and was lucky enough to continue without losing his lead

Hungary 98: Went off at the last corner and was again lucky not to stuff it in the barrier and lose his lead

Belgium 98: Rammed coulthard when attempting to lap him

Indie 2002: Gave the race win to barrichello attempting to stage a formation finish

China 2005: Span out from behind the safety car

Australia 2006: Went wide at turn 9 and pitched himself into the wall

Hungary 2006: Broke his suspension attempting to defend too hard to heidfeld

The only difference between Kimi and Michael was that Michael often had the luck of getting away with his mistakes

Why would you think I was drawing comparisions with Schumacher? I am judging Kimi purely on Kimi and what I perceive him to be capable of.

Welcome to the forums, by the way

[cavallino 2]

So much to reply to, so little time

[Shane2 0]

I like this guys posts

Welcome to TF1 by the way Shane!

Thanks, and to pabloh also for the welcome

The reason the 2004 exit from the belgian GP is marked as a driving mistake, is because Oil from Alonso's engine leaked onto his rear tires causing him to spin out, making it look like a pretty critical driving error. When renault got the car back to the pits they found out that the engine in the car was very close to failing, and that is why it spat the oil onto his tyres.

Again in 2004 i feel the uncompetitive car was partly to blame. What was the other wet race in 2005? i only remember Belgium being wet during the race itself. 2006 i have already given the reasons why he never won those

[Player(1) 0]

Don't worry Shane2, on here anyone that dosent like Alonso expect's him to transend the laws of physic's before they will recognize anything he does as an achievement while they over glorify the simplist things their driver does. You get used to it, i'd point out the main offenders but you proberly can spot them yourself after the first day here.

[pabloh20 1]

Thanks, and to pabloh also for the welcome

The reason the 2004 exit from the belgian GP is marked as a driving mistake, is because Oil from Alonso's engine leaked onto his rear tires causing him to spin out, making it look like a pretty critical driving error. When renault got the car back to the pits they found out that the engine in the car was very close to failing, and that is why it spat the oil onto his tyres.

Again in 2004 i feel the uncompetitive car was partly to blame. What was the other wet race in 2005? i only remember Belgium being wet during the race itself. 2006 i have already given the reasons why he never won those

The site I was looking at has Montreal classified as a wet/dry race as well.

Well, usually during the wet, the cars that aren't as competitive have a chance to win, if they have a good driver, so personally I don't feel that can be used as an excuse for 2004.

2006 - I can accept the wheel nut coming off, but I can't accept China as an excuse. There has already been a thread on this and I'm not going there again!!

However, I am stressing that it's just my opinions of Kimi & Alsonso.

[Shane2 0]

Well i feel it is a perfectly good excuse for his failure in china, and if you compare his lap times before the pit stop, to his lap times after the pit stop it wouldn't need Einstein to tell you something was up with his car. No driver, even a back of the grid one does not start suddenly losing 3s per lap for absolutely no reason, after doing front running times.

I don't know how the heck canada 2005 got classed as wet/dry because i don't remember any rain at all, unless there where a few spots of rain on the last lap.

As for wet conditions: it does not always make non-competitive cars competitive, and if you consider the fact that the 2004 Bridgestone wet on the ferrari was vastly superior to the 2004 Michelin wet which went on Alonso's car, winning was going to be by no means easier. All that wet conditions really neutralise are cars with lack of engine power. The intermediates however where about equal in 2004 and Alonso could have quiet easily have won the 2004 belgian GP if it was not for his engine failure.

Another point to consider is that Alonso is still in what can be generally considered to be the early stages of his career, having only been in the c#ckpit since 2003, give him his chance and i am sure he will win one in the wet.

[pabloh20 1]

Well i feel it is a perfectly good excuse for his failure in china, and if you compare his lap times before the pit stop, to his lap times after the pit stop it wouldn't need Einstein to tell you something was up with his car. No driver, even a back of the grid one does not start suddenly losing 3s per lap for absolutely no reason, after doing front running times.

Preumably you mean the problem with the tyres? There's no doubt he had a problem with them, however it's not the reason why I don't see China as an excuse.

I don't know how the heck canada 2005 got classed as wet/dry because i don't remember any rain at all, unless there where a few spots of rain on the last lap.

No idea

As for wet conditions: it does not always make non-competitive cars competitive, and if you consider the fact that the 2004 Bridgestone wet on the ferrari was vastly superior to the 2004 Michelin wet which went on Alonso's car, winning was going to be by no means easier. All that wet conditions really neutralise are cars with lack of engine power. The intermediates however where about equal in 2004 and Alonso could have quiet easily have won the 2004 belgian GP if it was not for his engine failure.

I never said always, I said usually - there are quite a few examples of drivers getting an uncompetetitve car to win in the wet in the history of F1 and Alonso has had better chances than some of those drivers. Maybe a better time to judge will be in 08.

Another point to consider is that Alonso is still in what can be generally considered to be the early stages of his career, having only been in the c#ckpit since 2003, give him his chance and i am sure he will win one in the wet.

Did Alonso not exist before 2003 in F1?? I think you'll find he drove for Minardi in 2001, not that I was expecting him to win then, of course and was a test driver in 2002. I hope he does win a race in the wet soon, I hope he does it spectacularly. However, he's had his chances & he has not taken them so far.

[Shane2 0]

So he has been in the c#ckpit of a potentially good car for 4 seasons (not counting the Minardi) and hasn't won a wet race. Big deal, lets all cry. He can win a wet race, and he has the talent to, its just a case of time. And although Schumacher was acknowledged to be good in the rain how often do you ever hear fans saying "Schumi was the best cos he was good in the rain, not because he won 7 titles" or "So and so was crap cos he didnt win in the rain"

Records count, and i think the record of 2 world championships, back to back, at the age of 25 says more than enough about his driving credentials

[Jem of the Shire 0]

Of course alonso can win a race in the wet. People who said jenson cant win were stupid, and people saying alonso cant win in the wet is pretty stupid too. At Hungary Alonso and Button were class of the field, neither making any mistakes - if alonso hadnt retired he may well have won that race. I disagree with wez's comment that he would've 'easily' won hungary, as Button was going a lot faster and had caught up

[pabloh20 1]

So he has been in the c#ckpit of a potentially good car for 4 seasons (not counting the Minardi) and hasn't won a wet race. Big deal, lets all cry. He can win a wet race, and he has the talent to, its just a case of time. And although Schumacher was acknowledged to be good in the rain how often do you ever hear fans saying "Schumi was the best cos he was good in the rain, not because he won 7 titles" or "So and so was crap cos he didnt win in the rain"

Much of Shumacher's reputation is built on being good in the rain, as was Senna's before him.

Records count, and i think the record of 2 world championships, back to back, at the age of 25 says more than enough about his driving credentials

I didn't say he wasn't a good driver, I said in my mind for him to be classed as a truly great driver then he is going to have to win in the wet. If this isn't an important to you, then fine, but it doesn't change my opinion. Is that ok ?

[Shane2 0]

I think to be fair i made that comment

I think jenson may have caught up, but i feel fernando would have taken it if it wasnt for the retirement

[pabloh20 1]

Don't worry Shane2, on here anyone that dosent like Alonso expect's him to transend the laws of physic's before they will recognize anything he does as an achievement while they over glorify the simplist things their driver does. You get used to it, i'd point out the main offenders but you proberly can spot them yourself after the first day here.

Presumably, that wasn't aimed at me, Player ??

[Shane2 0]

Lol howd i miss that comment

That goes really for anyone who competes with Schumacher, the ferrari fans are just jealous because Alonso stole wonderboy's glory in his last story.

[Player(1) 0]

Presumably, that wasn't aimed at me, Player ??

Nope your far from plumming those depth's

[pabloh20 1]

Nope your far from plumming those depth's

Awww, thanks !!

[cavallino 2]

Well i feel it is a perfectly good excuse for his failure in china,

He screwed up his own tyre choice - no excuse.

Another point to consider is that Alonso is still in what can be generally considered to be the early stages of his career, having only been in the c#ckpit since 2003, give him his chance and i am sure he will win one in the wet.

2003? Have you met player1, he thinks that 2002 should not count because Alonso wasn't good enough to get a race drive, you take that further by taking out another year. Should we say 2005 was hsi debut year do you think, sounds even beter if you say that.

[Shane2 0]

No 2005 wasnt his debut year because he was racing before then. And maybe he wasnt good enough then, and he was still young. He has 2 world championships now, and i think that proves more than anything else, and he would not have won them by "not being good enough"

[Player(1) 0]

He screwed up his own tyre choice - no excuse.

2003? Have you met player1, he thinks that 2002 should not count because Alonso wasn't good enough to get a race drive, you take that further by taking out another year. Should we say 2005 was hsi debut year do you think, sounds even beter if you say that.

Yes cav being a test driver counts as racing in that season even though your not racing anyone, remember all those people jumping to agree with you on that point....how are those pig's flying out your a##? must be sore

*wakes up*

Whooooaaaaa, i must have lapsed into your world for a second there cav...very slanted place.

[Shane2 0]

BUT THATS NOT TRUE THEY RACE THE OTHER TEST DRIVERS

Whoops shame they don't get any points for it

Test drivers are actually an important part of the team, they play a large part in deciding what tires and aerodynamic setup will be used for the race.

Oh btw cav, Reanult chose his tires not Alonso himself. A mistake yes, but on the teams part

[cavallino 2]

Yes cav being a test driver counts as racing in that season even though your not racing anyone,

Counts as being in F1..

Oh btw cav, Reanult chose his tires not Alonso himself. A mistake yes, but on the teams part

Wrong again, your third mistake of the day. And you still haven't admitted to even one, tohugh it is obvious to everyone to see. For someone who loves to speak of facts,you are awefully short of them..

Have you met player1? He loves Alonso, loves twisting factsw, can't admit to mistakes, loves resorting to personal remarks and has no sense of humour, you two should get along just wonderfully.

[Shane2 0]

Oh and you are just full of facts aren't you? "Alonso was trying to cheat in Brazil 2003" when you have no proof of it whatsoever.

Alonso complained of Understeer. He did not ask the team to only replace 1 set of tires.

[Quiet One 15]

Oh and you are just full of facts aren't you? "Alonso was trying to cheat in Brazil 2003" when you have no proof of it whatsoever.

Alonso complained of Understeer. He did not ask the team to only replace 1 set of tires.

Errrmh...I will have to back Cav on this, not that I really agree on anything else he has to say, but I don't think Renault would change FA's tyres without at least his consent. I have no proofs to back this up, just common sense. As for the rest of Cav's comments, you will soon learn, Shane, that he is hopeless

Had to point this because Alonso is my idol despite his errors, not because he made none of them.

[Shane2 0]

Well if Fernando did make that choice, then all i can say is it was a mistake on his part. I think the guy is a fantastic driver, but unlike the Slanted Schumi fans, i don't mind admitting when i feel a driver has made a mistake, and for whatever reason things just didn't fall his way in China. Schumacher has made plenty of mistakes. Senna made them, Prost made them, Jackie Stewart made them, and so did just about every other world champion, so as much as this must displease the Schumi fanboys, I am afraid Alonso is not the only driver thats ever made a mistake

[pabloh20 1]

Well if Fernando did make that choice, then all i can say is it was a mistake on his part. I think the guy is a fantastic driver, but unlike the Slanted Schumi fans, i don't mind admitting when i feel a driver has made a mistake, and for whatever reason things just didn't fall his way in China. Schumacher has made plenty of mistakes. Senna made them, Prost made them, Jackie Stewart made them, and so did just about every other world champion, so as much as this must displease the Schumi fanboys, I am afraid Alonso is not the only driver thats ever made a mistake

That has never been anybody's point - certainly not mine. This started because you were critical of me & my criteria for judging Kimi & Alonso.

I am sure the Alonso fans are really bothered if I think Alonso needs to win in the wet to be classed as a great driver, they will just sit back, point to the the 2 wdcs and laugh, more than likely. I am sure Kimi fans aren't too bothered if I think Kimi has made a few too many mistakes compared to what I perceive he is capable of, they will point to the fact that he is highly regarded in F1 circles and laugh, knowing that he may well have the car next year to prove all the critics wrong. However, these are only my opinions and I am quite happy with them, thank you very much.

I would also like to point you to your reply to my comment about wishing F1 was more exciting in the motogp thread and ask you to have a look objectively at what you're posting and seeing if you are truly any different to the fanboys you say you can't stand. I am not having a go at you, just that I think you may be a tad over zealous with some of your posts.

Also, have you had a look at the vid in bajo39's sig et?