Iran Captures 15 British Sailors

[Quiet One 15]

We've been here before, guys. It goes nowhere and achieves nothing. Except to expose our own ignorance and prejudice and to wind up people we normally get on well with. I'll leave you to it.

Nothing like a good pub brawl every once in a while, Russ! Grab a chair and break it on the back of the next guy!

[Autumnpuma 0]

You do indeed. I've noticed that Mike tends to use British spelling in his posts. A Trojan horse perhaps?

I do indeed. Most people on this forum are used to the British spelling, so I use it as often as possible to make reading my posts easier. Speak to your audience and all that. I revert back to the American spelling in threads such as this or when I'm making a distictly American point.

[Jenson_Rules 0]

Substitute the word country for religion, and the same could apply to many of us here.

Ben, you honestly believe that Iran's going to use nuclear energy for power? damn, I thought you were smarter than that.

I do not trust Iran completely but you seriously need to gain perspectives from other countries and see things from other peoples points of view! Obv I'm going to like the Arabs here because they are all liberal and all bloody nice people! They can't do enough for you, and yes they do treat the jinglies badly but they still get more money than they would in India and still get cheap places to live. So it's not all that bad.

And whoever said gay people pass on more diseases. read the statistics... a higher percentage of straight people have aids and hiv than gay people and the same goes for STI's. So don't use that excuse! What a load of bull!

[Shane2 0]

Now you say apostacy is punishable to death, If you are damn sure, why dont you open the pages of Quran (ENGLISH VERSION) or hadiths and prove it to me rather than reading it from somewhere and ranting about it?

Ok you want quotes, here ya go. Some from the hadith

The Hadith ---Sayings and actions of Prophet Muhammad

Abu Dawud 38:4357 When the Apostle of Allah cut off the hands and feet of those who had stolen his camels and apostacised and had their eyes put out by fire, Allah reprimanded him and revealed: "The punishment of those who wage war against Allah and His Apostle and strive with might and main for rnischief through the land is execution or crucifixion." (38A359).. or the cutting off of hands and feet from opposite sides or exile from the land" This was "revealed about polytheists and if any of them repent before they are arrested it does not prevent from inflicting on him the prescribed punishment which he deserves"

Muslim 623 The Prophet said: "It is not permissible to take the life of a Muslim except in one of the three cases: the married adulterer, a life for a life (if the person is Muslim), and the deserter of Islam."

Bukhari 9:89:271 A man embraced Islam and then reverted back to Judaism Mu'adh said: "I will not sit down unless you kill him as it is the verdict of Allah and His Apostle"

Bukhari 4:52:260 Ali burnt some people (Zanadiqa, atheists 9:84:57) although the Prophet had said, "Don?t punish anybody with Allah's punishment (Fire)" if a Muslim discards his religion, kill him"

[Jean Todt 4]

Ok you want quotes, here ya go. Some from the hadith

your source please....Dont tell you got it from internet!

[Shane2 0]

Well yes, I am not a muslim (heaven forbid, i'd rather castrate myself), so I dont happen to own a copy of their religious texts

[Jean Todt 4]

Well yes, I am not a muslim (heaven forbid, i'd rather castrate myself), so I dont happen to own a copy of their religious texts

So you dont really know what exactly is given there..

anyways, Its not gona change anything, sorry for arguing.

gnite guys!

[Shane2 0]

Well seeing as you are apparently the enlightened one, maybe you can tell me? All I am doing is providing the info you asked for... All I can say is that the second paragrah clearly says it is permissible to take the life of someone if he leaves or deserts the religion

[dribbler 6]

So your saying America is having sex with Iraq

I would say America is f*cking Iraq up the arse.

We do tend to get testy when bombed on our own soil, however.....sorry, forum folk, but that is not easily forgotten.

No, but what is forgotten by the majority of Americans is why that happened in the first place.

you honestly believe that Iran's going to use nuclear energy for power? damn, I thought you were smarter than that.

So what if it's for Nucular weapons. Tell me something; you're Iranian, you see what's going on in your neighbouring country. You see your country being labelled as a rogue state. Would you not want to arm yourself? Does it automatically mean that you would use it? America hates the idea of one more country that it can't push around, that's all.

In my view ,being a globo cop isn't a bad thing. However , if you do want to be a globo-cop ,make sure you go about it in a frank ,fair manner & make sure that the job's complete.

Frank and fair only works if your perception of that is the same around the world. Religion dictates that it's not. That's why it's difficult.

We've been here before, guys. It goes nowhere and achieves nothing. Except to expose our own ignorance and prejudice and to wind up people we normally get on well with. I'll leave you to it.

Are you talking about this thread or religion?

[Max Mosley 2]

Shane, if Abbas doesn't take up the offer, I will play devil's advocate (forgive the pun, Abbas ) and defend Islam. Clearly it might take me some time to do the research, but I think there are different translations and interpretations that don't give the impression you are getting. You have to remember those words were written in a specific context in a language very different to ours, and so what is translated as "unbeliever" may be a shorthand for "our enemy" in a particular situation, for example.

Age. It's all about age.

Probably, yes. Although I would say that imho as many problems arise from older people being too stuck in their ways, or being unwilling to listen to those with new ideas, as from younger people's competitive/idealistic/inexperienced natures.

I do indeed. Most people on this forum are used to the British spelling, so I use it as often as possible to make reading my posts easier. Speak to your audience and all that. I revert back to the American spelling in threads such as this or when I'm making a distictly American point.

Oh? I had no idea you were being so considerate! For an American, you're a good chap.

Wonderful post. You have become my new god. And I will lay my vengeance upon thee who oppose the Holy Word of Murray and his Sacred Cult of the Jacuzzi!

Cheers Andres. I can't think of a funny way to say it I'm afraid, like you did, but the respect is entirely mutual.

[Moose11 0]

I've only skimmed a lot of this topic so not sure what everyones stance on this is but my feeling is that this is more likely to be an Iranian mistake than a British one and if Britain provide the evidence publically that they say they've shown Iran then Iran are in big trouble (not that they'll care).

I worry about them British Navy boys, Iran isn't the sorta place you'd want to be prisoner - not quite up to speed on the geniva convention i'd imagine.

Eitherway Britain have played this real cool, they've gave Iran a lot of opertunity to sort this out but its gonig nowhere, it's time Britain stepped it up a gear. When I seen on the news today that they still had them Navy guys my first thought was, bomb the s##t out of them until they release them.

I honestly believe the US&Brits picked the wrong country to sort out, it should have been Iran. They fund terrorism - no questions, they are developing nucs - no question, and they despise Isreal and have claimed they want to wipe them off the map. (They also hate ourselves and the Yanks). The way they treat some of their people, especially the woman is dispicable (I understand the tradition but some of the stuff they do is overboard).

I hope they let these boys go soon or Britain better start forcing Iran's hand.

[Moose11 0]

You forgot to mention the part that people can be hanged for being gay without trial, and women who are raped can be stoned to death for adultry. You also forget that anyone who is a muslim and doesnt want to be one can be hanged for apostacy. All allowed under Sharia (islamic law)

Religion of peace my toocas, its a religon of hate and intolerance.

Ya, they had a show on now long ago about a 15 year old girl who was abused by a 60 year old man over a period of 2 years. When the authorities found out in Iran, the man was arrested and whipped.. The girl was arrested and charged with sleeping with a man that was not her '(forced) husband'. She previously had a misconduct that she got whipped for for being in public with her two male cousins. For these cimes she was hanged in public.

I believe in traditions, I fully accept that these countries dont need to be westernised, but stuff like that cannot be allowed to go on.

[Jem of the Shire 0]

Tony Blair has said that if the marines arent released by Friday, then the UK will move into 'the next phase'. This is believed to mean publically showing the evidence that the boats were indeed in Iraqi waters, not Iranian. Bombing etc will not have been discussed, because a) the UK government is British, not american and b - they're over 15 years old

[Moose11 0]

Tony Blair has said that if the marines arent released by Friday, then the UK will move into 'the next phase'. This is believed to mean publically showing the evidence that the boats were indeed in Iraqi waters, not Iranian. Bombing etc will not have been discussed, because a) the UK government is British, not american and b - they're over 15 years old

Yep the right way to go about it, keep it all above board. Should they make it public and Iran still refuses to comply then any form of attack by the Brits will be completly fair enough. Cant see it coming to that. Im thinking Iran are playing mind games.

[Shane2 0]

Its just a rediculous situation that will get Iran nowhere. They really should just release them or provide proof of where they where.

[Autumnpuma 0]

I would say America is f*cking Iraq up the arse.

Ouch. Wet nap please.

No, but what is forgotten by the majority of Americans is why that happened in the first place.

Oh, so those civilians got what they deserved, eh? We are just supposed to say 'ah well, some political hack made a bad call some years ago so we should not complain if someone decides to kill 2000+ civilians in one blow'. Not going to happen, my friend. You mentioned going to the site of the WTC and you even posted pictures. You mentioned that you were moved. Why? If we 'got what we deserved' then you should smugly say 'Ha, mighty America! What a joke! Rest in pieces, folks'. Seriously, Steve, is this what you are getting at? I can hardly believe it; you're too rational for that.

So what if it's for Nucular weapons. Tell me something; you're Iranian, you see what's going on in your neighbouring country. You see your country being labelled as a rogue state. Would you not want to arm yourself? Does it automatically mean that you would use it? America hates the idea of one more country that it can't push around, that's all.

Not just America, though it's easy enough to blame us for it. Pretty much the whole assembled Unitied Nations doesn't want Iran to have nuclear weapons. Personally, I don't care if they have them or not. America has enough nukes to make Iran a glass desert if they every used their weaponry...that's enough of a deterrent, I think.

Tony Blair has said that if the marines arent released by Friday, then the UK will move into 'the next phase'. This is believed to mean publically showing the evidence that the boats were indeed in Iraqi waters, not Iranian. Bombing etc will not have been discussed, because a) the UK government is British, not american and b - they're over 15 years old

Ah, Jem, you leave me speechless. A wise man knows when talk and also when to fight. Only a fool remains true to peace in the face of aggression...usually a dead fool. Peace should never be your goal, for in reaching that goal you must sacrifice everything you hold dear. Rather let what is right and true be your goal, standing fast to it and defending it against all onslaughts, and peace will result. A true peace, not one born out of concession. Right and true needn't be religious, but many ideals of many religions are right and true.

[AutoRacer5 0]

So what if it's for Nucular weapons. Tell me something; you're Iranian, you see what's going on in your neighbouring country. You see your country being labelled as a rogue state. Would you not want to arm yourself? Does it automatically mean that you would use it? America hates the idea of one more country that it can't push around, that's all.

I'd overthrow the government if I were Iranian.

[Max Mosley 2]

Oh, so those civilians got what they deserved, eh? We are just supposed to say 'ah well, some political hack made a bad call some years ago so we should not complain if someone decides to kill 2000+ civilians in one blow'. Not going to happen, my friend. You mentioned going to the site of the WTC and you even posted pictures. You mentioned that you were moved. Why? If we 'got what we deserved' then you should smugly say 'Ha, mighty America! What a joke! Rest in pieces, folks'. Seriously, Steve, is this what you are getting at? I can hardly believe it; you're too rational for that.

Of course you can complain (and much more, in the face of such an atrocity) but you should also consider honestly why so many people around the world hate your country (and I don't mean we Brits who offer constructive criticism, whilst basically supporting you - both are simply prerequisites of being a good ally). Ordinary Muslims hate American policy in the middle east and it's not hard to see why: you (and we) supported Saddam, largely created Al-Qaeda and have bungled a (probably illegal) war in Iraq (under false pretences) that has left at least tens of thousands dead and Iraq in such a state that most Iraqis say they were better under Saddam, not to mention the fact that Israel has been allowed to flout international law for 40 years.

Ah, Jem, you leave me speechless. A wise man knows when talk and also when to fight. Only a fool remains true to peace in the face of aggression...usually a dead fool. Peace should never be your goal, for in reaching that goal you must sacrifice everything you hold dear. Rather let what is right and true be your goal, standing fast to it and defending it against all onslaughts, and peace will result. A true peace, not one born out of concession. Right and true needn't be religious, but many ideals of many religions are right and true.

Yes but I don't think violence is going to get our people back alive in this case.

[Shane2 0]

I am a brit and I hate American policies. They seem to feel they have some overriding right to rule and police the world, and they involve themselves in other people's affairs. And when a major event occurs, they act as if the loss of other life is irrelavant compared to their own. And they respond to everything far too aggressively, I think the art of Diplomacy is lost on the Bush administration.

[pumpdoc 2]

More pi$$ing and bitching from the kids on this forum, what a waste of fuking time.............

[Shane2 0]

I don't really agree with that. There have been some differences of Opinion, but so far it has remained fairly civilised.

[Autumnpuma 0]

Yes but I don't think violence is going to get our people back alive in this case.

The threat of violence would have kept them from being captured in the first place....

[ykickamoocow 0]

They fund terrorism - no questions

Bush says they fund terrorism. Bush also said that Iraq had WMD's.

they are developing nucs - no question

They are develop[ing nuclear technology but there is no proof of them developing nuclear weapons.

and they despise Isreal and have claimed they want to wipe them off the map.

If you looked into Isreal's history you might want to wipe them off the map as well. Israil are bullies and most countries in that region hate them with a passion.

(They also hate ourselves and the Yanks).

So do many other countries. That is no reason to go to war with them

The way they treat some of their people, especially the woman is dispicable (I understand the tradition but some of the stuff they do is overboard).

Most Iranians are Muslim but they arnt radical muslims. I challenge you to find any religion where women are treated equally.

[Autumnpuma 0]

They are develop[ing nuclear technology but there is no proof of them developing nuclear weapons.

I'm not 100% sure, but I think there may be some proof or the United Nations wouldn't be getting squirmy....(like I said, I'm not sure...)

If you looked into Isreal's history you might want to wipe them off the map as well. Israil are bullies and most countries in that region hate them with a passion.

How far back are you willing to go? 1948 would be the start of the most recent 'turnover' of Israel. Before that the Muslims had control of the region by kicking the Hebrews out and before that the Israelis had it by kicking the Arabs out. Go back far enough and you'll again see the Arab race holding the land when Jerusalem was called Jebuz. One could say that circa 600 BC the Arabs were bullying the Hebrews around. There have always been tensions between the Hebrews and the Arabs of the region and we are looking at one tiny slice of a very long conflict. That's the problem with taking sides there....it's impossible to tell who is ultimately right or wrong.

EDIT: I forgot about the brief time the Europeans held the land...just insert that into there somewhere...

[ykickamoocow 0]

I'm not 100% sure, but I think there may be some proof or the United Nations wouldn't be getting squirmy....(like I said, I'm not sure...)

How far back are you willing to go? 1948 would be the start of the most recent 'turnover' of Israel. Before that the Muslims had control of the region by kicking the Hebrews out and before that the Israelis had it by kicking the Arabs out. Go back far enough and you'll again see the Arab race holding the land when Jerusalem was called Jebuz. One could say that circa 600 BC the Arabs were bullying the Hebrews around. There have always been tensions between the Hebrews and the Arabs of the region and we are looking at one tiny slice of a very long conflict. That's the problem with taking sides there....it's impossible to tell who is ultimately right or wrong.

Im more taling about post WW2 when Israel invaded several nearby countries. I think Egypt was one of them but im not sure.