Jem of the Shire

No Penalty For Mclaren

116 posts in this topic

Yeah I admire Ferrari and MS's ability to "cheat". Honestly. I mean I thought Monaco 2006 was inspired - his only mistake was over-confidence. If he'd actually damaged the car instead of parking perfectly it would have been a stroke of genius. I'm serious here.

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Yeah I admire Ferrari and MS's ability to "cheat". Honestly. I mean I thought Monaco 2006 was inspired - his only mistake was over-confidence. If he'd actually damaged the car instead of parking perfectly it would have been a stroke of genius. I'm serious here.

They say, in the end cheaters will be caught and humiliated in front of the crowd. Thats what happened. But I share the same thought with you. :blush:

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Its like preaching to the anti-christ here about how God does it right.

Everyone is under the assumption McLaren cheated, yet I see no evidence anywhere, nor do the FIA. They were found guilty of a team member possessing information which has not been used.

I assume Ferrari also went over all the evidence with a fine tomb comb, if there was evidence it would have been leaked, just like the sworn affridavit (sorry for the spelling!). If Mcalren had been proven to use the information Id have no problems with the comments made.

David

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[quote name='David Adams' post='207312' date='Jul 30 2007, 04:07 PM']Its like preaching to the anti-christ here about how God does it right.

Everyone is under the assumption McLaren cheated, yet I see no evidence anywhere, nor do the FIA. They were found guilty of a team member possessing information which has not been used.

I assume Ferrari also went over all the evidence with a fine tomb comb, if there was evidence it would have been leaked, just like the sworn affridavit (sorry for the spelling!). If Mcalren had been proven to use the information Id have no problems with the comments made.

David[/quote]
I see your point. The difference of criteria does not come from whether McLaren used the info or not.
The difference come from the concept that, if a team member has confidential info from some other team, the posession itself is a breach of the rules. From the team member, for obvious reasons. For the team (i.e. McLaren) for having hired a guy that breaches the rules. Please note that McLaren should not be punished for ANY deed a team member does. If MC had stabbed his wife to death, he would surely be convicted by the authorities, but McLaren would not have shared the responsability.
In the case of a rule breach, on the other hand, I would have sworn that it should reflect on the team as well as on the person. The degree of responsability for the team can be discussed, but it surely has some.
You cannot punish a team only if you can prove the team benefited from a bad deed. Otherwise, that would never happen, because it is impossible to define how could a team be benefited except if they copy exactly some Ferrari design.

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Yes it's obvious and we're just going round in circles. If a single member of a team in a sporting contest breaks the rules of that contest, then the team as a whole must be penalised. Every other sport understands that.

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Yeah I admire Ferrari and MS's ability to "cheat". Honestly. I mean I thought Monaco 2006 was inspired - his only mistake was over-confidence. If he'd actually damaged the car instead of parking perfectly it would have been a stroke of genius. I'm serious here.

Massa has inherited his cheating skill as shown in Monza 2006. :naughty:

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Appeal Time :clap3:

from HomeOfSport.com

Mosley agrees to re-open McLaren spy case

FIA president Max Mosley on Tuesday agreed to send the espionage case against McLaren to the governing body's Court of Appeal.

Following the written request of Ferrari's national sanctioning organisation, the Automobile Club d'Italia (ACI), Mosley said it was right to further investigate the case because Ferrari had not been allowed to present evidence in last Thursday's hearing of the World Motor Sport Council.

McLaren in Paris was found to be in breach of clause 151c of the International Sporting Code but was not penalised, which in ACI president Luigi Macaluso's view is "quite difficult to justify".

He claimed that "several top team representatives" of McLaren knew about chief designer Mike Coughlan's espionage activities over several months, but that Ferrari had been unable to counter McLaren's defence that no employee besides Coughlan knew about the 780-pages of secret information.

In a written reply to Macaluso, who after the Paris hearing had also verbally questioned the FIA's decision, Mosley said probing the matter further was also important for "public confidence in the outcome".

He wrote: "I will send this matter to the FIA Court of Appeal ... with a request that the Court hear both Ferrari and McLaren and any other Championship competitor who so requests and determine whether the decision of the WMSC was appropriate and, if not substitute such other decision as may be just."

Lets hope they get it right this time... :ph34r:

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Appeal Time :clap3:

from HomeOfSport.com

Mosley agrees to re-open McLaren spy case

FIA president Max Mosley on Tuesday agreed to send the espionage case against McLaren to the governing body's Court of Appeal.

Following the written request of Ferrari's national sanctioning organisation, the Automobile Club d'Italia (ACI), Mosley said it was right to further investigate the case because Ferrari had not been allowed to present evidence in last Thursday's hearing of the World Motor Sport Council.

McLaren in Paris was found to be in breach of clause 151c of the International Sporting Code but was not penalised, which in ACI president Luigi Macaluso's view is "quite difficult to justify".

He claimed that "several top team representatives" of McLaren knew about chief designer Mike Coughlan's espionage activities over several months, but that Ferrari had been unable to counter McLaren's defence that no employee besides Coughlan knew about the 780-pages of secret information.

In a written reply to Macaluso, who after the Paris hearing had also verbally questioned the FIA's decision, Mosley said probing the matter further was also important for "public confidence in the outcome".

He wrote: "I will send this matter to the FIA Court of Appeal ... with a request that the Court hear both Ferrari and McLaren and any other Championship competitor who so requests and determine whether the decision of the WMSC was appropriate and, if not substitute such other decision as may be just."

Lets hope they get it right this time... :ph34r:

That's what I was saying among other things!!!

I don't know if I should feel proud for noticing something they didn't, feel furious because they couldn't have possibly ignored such an obvious thing, feel happy because this will repair some of the damage caused to Nando and Lewis, or feel sad because the Appeal's sentence might end up hurting them more.

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I see it is clear that FIA has seen how foolish WMSC's decision was.

:bangin:

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The whole thing's rapidly turning into a farce. Their main punishment will probably be dealt out in private. The rest is just a sham to make sure the sport (ie Bernie and the teams) doesn't lose too many pennies. Who in their right mind would have faith in the sport?

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That's what I was saying among other things!!!

I don't know if I should feel proud for noticing something they didn't, feel furious because they couldn't have possibly ignored such an obvious thing, feel happy because this will repair some of the damage caused to Nando and Lewis, or feel sad because the Appeal's sentence might end up hurting them more.

Honestly I wouldn't like to see Mclaren disqualified or the drivers to lose points.That is highly theoretical though.Because if Mclaren indeed benefited to the point of finding itself leading both championships, then I believe justice should be served at all costs.The fact is we are talking about the drawings and technical specs of this years car.The use for them (drawings etc) could come handy in a million ways.

What if the teams chief designer (wonder who.. :eusa_think: ) had loaded all the data on the notorious mclaren simulator?Wouldn't they know instantly how fast the Ferrari's could go with a given fuel load and all the subsequent effects like tyre wear etc??I repeat I wouldn't like the championship to be influenced at all.But justice must be served...

Edited by tifosi too!

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The dossier also contain strategical data which could definitely have been used to gain advantage, it not just about drawings and parts the strategical data is a much higher concern. It is also clear that only Mclearen where allowed to show evidence, therefore in al fairness Ferrari should also have an opportunity to present their case.

The championship already seems tainted, the correct punishment could give it some respectability again.

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Tiresome piffle and thinking with blinkers on. And a lack of objectivity. Wake me up when someone talks sense.

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Tiresome piffle and thinking with blinkers on. And a lack of objectivity. Wake me up when someone talks sense.

+1 indeed!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

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The report below is quite interesting:

http://www.planet-f1.com/story/0,18954,3261_2625548,00.html

Quote below from Article:

"Coughlan's evidence about McLaren has been undermined by his desire to go and work for somebody else, just as Stepeney's would have been if he revealed (or goes on to reveal) embarrassing secrets about Ferrari's past after his ominous quote to the Sunday Times; "I know where the bodies are buried."

Prior to the hearing and in advance of all the court action in England and Italy, there have been constant, almost daily leaks to the Italian press revealing details and allegations surrounding the story. The worst of these has been from Mike Coughlan's sworn affidavit to the High Court - the document should be highly confidential.

It seems that the desire to get the facts out into the public domain and put McLaren in a bad light has run ahead of the desire to individually punish the two men involved. Because now there must be a serious risk that Stepney and Coughlan cannot get fair trials because of all the prior media coverage - details that should only have been revealed in court. "

Instead of letting all the evidence be presented in the hearing Ferrari seem determined to create a wave of prejudice against McLaren which may have backfired in the sense that with all the 'leaked' details of confidential documents (which could /could not have come from Ferrari) the constant reports/interviews crying foul and stating that they cannot understand how no punishment was dished out, that they themselves have been at the forefront of discrediting McLaren and have therefore helped in bringing the sport into disrepute.

Now I do not support cheating in any way - and IF McLaren can be PROVED to have cheated then they deserve to be punished.

But let's face it Ferrari are hardly 'whiter than white' when it comes to things like this are they:

Quote from Article:

And Ferrari, it now turns out, are not above spying themselves. Former Ferrari driver Mika Salo told Finnish newspaper Ilta Sanomat: "When I was driving for Ferrari (in 1999) we always spied on McLaren, listening to their radio traffic. After every practice session I had in front of me, on paper, all the discussions Mika Hakkinen had had with his engineer." (Though Ferrari have prompted him to amend this quote to emphasise that all the eavesdropping was accidental due to radio interference).

Now did Ferrari go running to McLaren and let them know that they could overhear their radio transmissions or did they just carry on listening?

Ferrari always try and bend/break the rules (depends on your viewpoint) and seem to get away with it in most cases, but when the shoe is on the other foot they cry foul and do all they can to get the world to listen to how they have been wronged !!

I do not think that anything will come of the appeal, the result will be just the same, I think the only reason that it is going through is so the FIA can say we did all we can - nothing's changed - can we please get on with the championship now..

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Ferrari always try and bend/break the rules (depends on your viewpoint) and seem to get away with it in most cases, but when the shoe is on the other foot they cry foul and do all they can to get the world to listen to how they have been wronged !!

I do not think that anything will come of the appeal, the result will be just the same, I think the only reason that it is going through is so the FIA can say we did all we can - nothing's changed - can we please get on with the championship now..

Well, everybody has been saying this for some time, but in case you missed it, many of us agree that what Ferrari usually do is find loopholes in the rules and profit from that in every manner possible, which they do quite good. But espionage is breaking the rules so they have every right to try complaining and see if they can profit from that, because all this is very controversial.

But it's getting tiresome...

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