Alonso Demoted To Sixth In Hungary

[NeoData 0]

The stewards thought there was false evidence. I don't know for sure if they were right, but I'm inclined to believe them, especially regarding Alonso. And I don't think it is besides the point at all. They are entitled to investigate anything they wish and it's up to Alonso and McLaren to tell them the truth. After all, if you haven't broken any laws, there's no need to lie.

It's beside the point because of my points are :

1. We have come to a point where the stewards are bringing the sport in more disrepute with their elephant in a porcelain closet act then the so called incidents on the track.

Their penalties are too often disproportionate and illogical.

2. they have set a precedent for penalising a driver for breaking a rule where no rule excist. There is no rule that states when the lollipop man say go you have to go.

3. You cannot penalise the driver in this case because during pitstops since the team is responsible for letting him go.

So with the current rules the only party they should have penalised was McLaren.

Lewis himself said that he thought Ron had deliberately held him up because he disobeyed the team and that is why he insulted him.

If Hamilton wants to play games with Alonso and disobey the team he should feel the consequences of his actions without the stewards interferance.

With this ruling the Stewards are saying that they dont mind a driver disobeying the team however they will penalise any subsequent negative consequence this driver might endure because of this.

Can you Imagine what will happen if next time Hamilton accidentally prevents Alonso from doing his final timed lap?

Or what if the pitcrew screws up and only brings Lewis 3 tires?

Are they gonna argue that too is deliberate and brings the sport in disrepute because everyone knows a F1 car has 4 wheels?

The stewards should have understood that this was a case where an incident could have been resolved without all the negative side effects of them intervening.

The stewards should have accepted the fact that McLaren was in a far better position to make a good decision because they possess all the facts and the close title fight between both drivers would have ensured it would have been a fair and balanced one.

Insted they expected McLaren to take out the dirty laundry and let them in on what happened

Because of this ruling the stewards have created a situation where a driver can disobey orders without having to worry about the immediate consequences.

[Fed up 0]

It's beside the point because of my points are :

1. We have come to a point where the stewards are bringing the sport in more disrepute with their elephant in a porcelain closet act then the so called incidents on the track.

Their penalties are too often disproportionate and illogical.

2. they have set a precedent for penalising a driver for breaking a rule where no rule excist. There is no rule that states when the lollipop man say go you have to go.

3. You cannot penalise the driver in this case because during pitstops since the team is responsible for letting him go.

So with the current rules the only party they should have penalised was McLaren.

Lewis himself said that he thought Ron had deliberately held him up because he disobeyed the team and that is why he insulted him.

If Hamilton wants to play games with Alonso and disobey the team he should feel the consequences of his actions without the stewards interferance.

With this ruling the Stewards are saying that they dont mind a driver disobeying the team however they will penalise any subsequent negative consequence this driver might endure because of this.

Can you Imagine what will happen if next time Hamilton accidentally prevents Alonso from doing his final timed lap?

Or what if the pitcrew screws up and only brings Lewis 3 tires?

Are they gonna argue that too is deliberate and brings the sport in disrepute because everyone knows a F1 car has 4 wheels?

The stewards should have understood that this was a case where an incident could have been resolved without all the negative side effects of them intervening.

The stewards should have accepted the fact that McLaren was in a far better position to make a good decision because they possess all the facts and the close title fight between both drivers would have ensured it would have been a fair and balanced one.

Insted they expected McLaren to take out the dirty laundry and let them in on what happened

Because of this ruling the stewards have created a situation where a driver can disobey orders without having to worry about the immediate consequences.

You are wrong of course!

You have to isolate the two from a sporting perspective. Lewis did not do anything that infringed the laws of F1, he simply refused to honour an inter team arrangement. Alonso, however, was deemed to have blocked Lewis by refusing to leave the pit when he had been motioned to do so by the lolipop and the team's chief mechanic. Blocking is a punishable offence in F1 hence the 5 place grid penalty - Alonso got off lightly in my opinion as MS got relegated to the back of the grid when he was deemed to have interfered with Alonso's lap.

It is very simple really

[Moose11 0]

You are wrong of course!

You have to isolate the two from a sporting perspective. Lewis did not do anything that infringed the laws of F1, he simply refused to honour an inter team arrangement. Alonso, however, was deemed to have blocked Lewis by refusing to leave the pit when he had been motioned to do so by the lolipop and the team's chief mechanic. Blocking is a punishable offence in F1 hence the 5 place grid penalty - Alonso got off lightly in my opinion as MS got relegated to the back of the grid when he was deemed to have interfered with Alonso's lap.

It is very simple really

Brilliant post and right on the money. It's funny how some people throwing the toys out of the pram for the punishment to Alonso were the same people up in arms when Schumacher blocked Alonso not much more than twelve months ago! Pot, Kettle, Black.

Hamilton right or wrote disobeyed his team and not a Rule of F1. It's up to his team to punish him how they see fit, not the powers that be in F1.

[NeoData 0]

You are wrong of course!

You have to isolate the two from a sporting perspective. Lewis did not do anything that infringed the laws of F1, he simply refused to honour an inter team arrangement. Alonso, however, was deemed to have blocked Lewis by refusing to leave the pit when he had been motioned to do so by the lolipop and the team's chief mechanic. Blocking is a punishable offence in F1 hence the 5 place grid penalty - Alonso got off lightly in my opinion as MS got relegated to the back of the grid when he was deemed to have interfered with Alonso's lap.

It is very simple really

First of all I never said Lewis broke any rules other then the rules set by his employer.

Again there is no rule that does not allow a driver to stand still for however long a period he has to stand still.

In qualifying the drivers are told to go by the race engineer not the chief mechanic.

For obvious reasons hes abit too busy to be looking for gaps on the track so the drivers can have a lap without traffic.

The blocking rule you are reffering to only applies to the track and the pitlane is not the actual track. Good effort but unfortunately it does not apply.

Alonso his physio Ron denis and his Race engineer all say he was waiting for a signal to go. So it was established that he wasnt the one who decided to stand still. Knowing this there is no way you can penalise Alonso for following instructions the blame then fully lays with the team.

There only rule that prevents a driver from standing still does not apply either because they were in the pitlane and again that is not a part of the track. there is anither rule that reffers to blockign cars in the pitlane but that only applies when there are 2 diffrent teams involved in an incident.

A soon as I saw this incident I dove into the rule book and after a few hours I was convinced there was no rule that prohibits this behaviour.

This is just like when Ferrari or whatever team finds a loophole and designs something that eventually everbody starts complaining about is illegal when infact there is no clear rule that says it is not allowed.

So I went to bed looking forward to a very interesting battle the next day .

Now one could say that Fernando's action was a disgrace and I certainly did not like what I saw but the fact remains there is no rule that prohibits it.

And therefore penalising him is absurd.

[Fed up 0]

Good points.

What you need to realise is that the collusion would have been played out over Alonso's radio. You may recall a time back in Canada when he was getting very agitated because fisi wouldn't let him by. He got so wound up that he ended up crashing into the wall.

My guess is that the plan was hatched between Alonso, his physio and his race engineer. His engineer is part of the team hence the team getting penalised. If the decision to detain Alonso had been the decision of the team the lolipop would not have been raised, the universal sign to exit in F1 parlance.

I posted a couple of youtube links yesterday but these have now been copyrighted by 'f1 management'

[mikathegreat2 2]

http://www.itv-f1.com/Feature.aspx?Type=Ge...amp;PO_ID=40289

When is'nt there a Hamilton exclusive on ITV! We all know he was stupid to get in Alonso's way but now to the fact that the stewards are getting invloved in this. I think they should stick their nose where it belongs & that is to make sure the drivers stay alive in big crashes instead of looking for attention in the McLaren garage & getting involved in the stupid childish nonsense the team is in right now!

[Fed up 0]

When is'nt there a Hamilton exclusive on ITV! We all know he was stupid to get in Alonso's way but now to the fact that the stewards are getting invloved in this. I think they should stick their nose where it belongs & that is to make sure the drivers stay alive in big crashes instead of looking for attention in the McLaren garage & getting involved in the stupid childish nonsense the team is in right now!

I bet you didn't think that when Schumi was accused of blocking in Monaco last year.

Blocking is blocking whether it is at ras cass (spell check) or within a team's own pit box.

[mikathegreat2 2]

I bet you didn't think that when Schumi was accused of blocking in Monaco last year.

Blocking is blocking whether it is at ras cass (spell check) or within a team's own pit box.

What does this have to do with Schumi?? He blocks Alonso once & the whole world calls him the biggest cheater ever! Alonso cut the chicane after the tunnel twice 1 day later to make sure he gets ahead of Ralfie or Trulli (whoever it was it was a Toytota), nobody says nothing! Alonso blocks Hamilton, nothing happens! Hamilton disobeys team orders once & everybody seems to think he's a hypocrite! Just face it, the reason why people dislike Hamilton is because he's a damn better driver than Alonso & Alonso knew about it & blocked Hamilton, even though he did'nt realise Hamilton was disobeying team orders!

I'd rather be some lonely geek who plays PS2 for a living rather than listening to the sh!te people say about Hamilton just becuase they love Alonso!

[Moose11 0]

The hypocracy is very amusing in some areas, as is the Anti-Alonso conspiracy theories floating around.

[AleHop 0]

...the reason why people dislike Hamilton is because he's a damn better driver than Alonso & Alonso knew about it & blocked Hamilton, even though he did'nt realise Hamilton was disobeying team orders!

Alonso knew that Hamilton had disobeyed team order but didn't trust it. He did not believe that the team could not convince him to let him pass.

The difference is that Alonso was punished and Hamilton will get away with it, with the help of his FIArends.

[mikathegreat2 2]

Alonso knew that Hamilton had disobeyed team order but didn't trust it. He did not believe that the team could not convince him to let him pass.

The difference is that Alonso was punished and Hamilton will get away with it, with the help of his FIArends.

Exactly! Those stupid n0bs in the FIA office are ruining his career & giving Hamilton whatever he wants! Stupid n0b jockeys! I could kill Bernie right now but my head hurts too much!

[Fed up 0]

Exactly! Those stupid n0bs in the FIA office are ruining his career & giving Hamilton whatever he wants! Stupid n0b jockeys! I could kill Bernie right now but my head hurts too much!

Are you drunk mate?

Your posts are all over the place and dont make sense

[Max Mosley 2]

So why would he be drunk?

[AleHop 0]

So why would he be drunk?

Maybe he drunk too much.

[YHR 0]

Yes on all counts. Some people here just have no imagination. It's quite funny imho.

Lewis is quite possibly another Senna/Schumi in the making, with all that that entails about his character imho.

But you do know that JV argued with and disobeyed team orders?

Only once he had become the world Champion, and the same guys defending Hamilton now were all over us JV supportors about JV's selfish ways, and how they don't belong in F1. I guess only if you are Canadian, British drivers must be measured by a different stick I guess. Kind of ironic really, and really makes me laugh when I hear who some of these arguements are coming from.

Please remember in JV's first race he captured pole and was leading the race. Williams gave him the order to mover over for Damon Hill, and he did!!!!!. The official Statement was that he was throwing too much oil to finish, but we all know his engine held together to finish second to Hill that day .JV was a loyal Williams Driver and did what was necessary to make sure Damon Hill won the WDC.

Once he became WDC he felt he had earned the right to better his position anyway he chose, much the same way Alonso is demanding his way as the WDC. That has been the order of things in F1. We are not talking Prost/Senna here. Were talking about a Rookie demanding as much and more then the current WDC.

The whole lap thing is about being fair. In this race Alonso was to have the extra lap to try and better the pole time. Last race it was Hamiliton. Hamiliton was on the pole and Alonso had been told he would get the last lap honors of grabbing it away from Hamilton. This would give Mclaren a 1-2 result, which is the best the team can do. There was no point in Hamilton making another charge as the team was on plan to record the 1-2 result. As the current WDC, that is a team commitment made to Alonso. It wasn't only Alonso involved in the "stop" in the pit. Other Mclaren team members know what it was all about as well. Hamilton's crass and selfish behavoir upset the apple cart, plain and simple.

So whether you like him for what he displayed today will very much depend on what level you watch Formula one. Nobody needs to apologize to me about being a homer and cheering Hamilton on, but lets at least call a spade a spade. No matter what James Allen goes on about or others on this forum about the great boy wonder and the shocking unsportsman like conduct of Alonso, the bottom line is Ron Dennis is p**sed, Alonso is p**sed, other members of the McClaren team are p**sed, and they are all mad at one guy. He put himself above what was good for the team.

Hamilton has now made life very difficult for Ron Dennis. Ron has to apologise to Alonso for Hamilton c#cking up the team fairness rule, and Alonso is most likely going to want flex his WDC title within the team more now. Alonso has been playing fair, and all he did was show Hamiliton the results of the game that Hamilton decided he wants to play. McLaren had this all worked out and clearly demonstrated to the young rookie what happens when you play those games. Unfortunately the stewards got in the way and c#cked it all up for them.

Had the stewards stayed out of it, McLaren would have been 1-2 on the grid, most likely finished 1-2 with the drivers settling it out on the track much to the entertainment of the fans, and earned many constructors points. Instead we watched a snoozefest. If anything the stewards really amplified the situation within the team. This hurt Alonso and McLaren much more then the rookies selfishness did.

[Quiet One 15]

He is just 13, Mr.Fed, and a bit too enthusiastic.

Frankly, not many posts make much sense (That is why I didn't continue posting about these issues)

As for Danny, he will learn, like we all did (well, not all of us, but some).

[mikathegreat2 2]

Maybe he drunk too much.

Shut it AleJock! Besides, unde-age drinking is illegal in my country, but legal to my parents, well excpet my Dad as he hates booze! Anyhway, reason 2 why people hate Hamilton: easy, the FIA! I'm sure by 2010, FIA will ruin Hamilton's career for good because he'd be hated so much!

[Fed up 0]

The whole lap thing is about being fair. In this race Alonso was to have the extra lap to try and better the pole time. Last race it was Hamiliton. Hamiliton was on the pole and Alonso had been told he would get the last lap honors of grabbing it away from Hamilton. This would give Mclaren a 1-2 result, which is the best the team can do. There was no point in Hamilton making another charge as the team was on plan to record the 1-2 result. As the current WDC, that is a team commitment made to Alonso. It wasn't only Alonso involved in the "stop" in the pit. Other Mclaren team members know what it was all about as well. Hamilton's crass and selfish behavoir upset the apple cart, plain and simple.

99% of F1 fans agree with this part of your post with only the die hard/blind Hami supporters taking a different line. The issue is not whether Hami was wrong or not, but whether Nando had the right to block his errant team mate.

IMHO Alonso should have completed his lap and dealt with Lewis through his PR machine or through the team. Two wrongs dont make a right and that is why he was punished.

[AleHop 0]

Only once he had become the world Champion, and the same guys defending Hamilton now were all over us JV supportors about JV's selfish ways, and how they don't belong in F1. I guess only if you are Canadian, British drivers must be measured by a different stick I guess. Kind of ironic really, and really makes me laugh when I hear who some of these arguements are coming from.

Please remember in JV's first race he captured pole and was leading the race. Williams gave him the order to mover over for Damon Hill, and he did!!!!!. The official Statement was that he was throwing too much oil to finish, but we all know his engine held together to finish second to Hill that day .JV was a loyal Williams Driver and did what was necessary to make sure Damon Hill won the WDC.

Once he became WDC he felt he had earned the right to better his position anyway he chose, much the same way Alonso is demanding his way as the WDC. That has been the order of things in F1. We are not talking Prost/Senna here. Were talking about a Rookie demanding as much and more then the current WDC.

The whole lap thing is about being fair. In this race Alonso was to have the extra lap to try and better the pole time. Last race it was Hamiliton. Hamiliton was on the pole and Alonso had been told he would get the last lap honors of grabbing it away from Hamilton. This would give Mclaren a 1-2 result, which is the best the team can do. There was no point in Hamilton making another charge as the team was on plan to record the 1-2 result. As the current WDC, that is a team commitment made to Alonso. It wasn't only Alonso involved in the "stop" in the pit. Other Mclaren team members know what it was all about as well. Hamilton's crass and selfish behavoir upset the apple cart, plain and simple.

So whether you like him for what he displayed today will very much depend on what level you watch Formula one. Nobody needs to apologize to me about being a homer and cheering Hamilton on, but lets at least call a spade a spade. No matter what James Allen goes on about or others on this forum about the great boy wonder and the shocking unsportsman like conduct of Alonso, the bottom line is Ron Dennis is p**sed, Alonso is p**sed, other members of the McClaren team are p**sed, and they are all mad at one guy. He put himself above what was good for the team.

Hamilton has now made life very difficult for Ron Dennis. Ron has to apologise to Alonso for Hamilton c#cking up the team fairness rule, and Alonso is most likely going to want flex his WDC title within the team more now. Alonso has been playing fair, and all he did was show Hamiliton the results of the game that Hamilton decided he wants to play. McLaren had this all worked out and clearly demonstrated to the young rookie what happens when you play those games. Unfortunately the stewards got in the way and c#cked it all up for them.

Had the stewards stayed out of it, McLaren would have been 1-2 on the grid, most likely finished 1-2 with the drivers settling it out on the track much to the entertainment of the fans, and earned many constructors points. Instead we watched a snoozefest. If anything the stewards really amplified the situation within the team. This hurt Alonso and McLaren much more then the rookies selfishness did.

[YHR 0]

99% of F1 fans agree with this part of your post with only the die hard/blind Hami supporters taking a different line. The issue is not whether Hami was wrong or not, but whether Nando had the right to block his errant team mate.

IMHO Alonso should have completed his lap and dealt with Lewis through his PR machine or through the team. Two wrongs dont make a right and that is why he was punished.

Except in qualifying the team has complete control in the pit box. McLaren could have just as easily told Hamiliton to Park it, (maybe they did) and the stewards couldn't have done a thing, so this whole blocking in the teams pit box is a farce, and the stewards involvement is riduculous, and needs review. The race was run under objection by Mclaren. I hope they stick to their guns and we can all see how the F1A wiggle out of this without looking like complete nobs.

[Fed up 0]

Except in qualifying the team has complete control in the pit box. McLaren could have just as easily told Hamiliton to Park it, (maybe they did) and the stewards couldn't have done a thing, so this whole blocking in the teams pit box is a farce, and the stewards involvement is riduculous, and needs review. The race was run under objection by Mclaren. I hope they stick to their guns and we can all see how the F1A wiggle out of this without looking like complete nobs.

http://www.itv-f1.com/Feature.aspx?Type=Ge...amp;PO_ID=40284

Read it in full and comment here

[Max Mosley 2]

Only once he had become the world Champion, and the same guys defending Hamilton now were all over us JV supportors about JV's selfish ways, and how they don't belong in F1. I guess only if you are Canadian, British drivers must be measured by a different stick I guess. Kind of ironic really, and really makes me laugh when I hear who some of these arguements are coming from.

Not much of an excuse imho! Btw no one has praised Lewis for what he did. I've said repeatedly that it was "stupid".

99% of F1 fans agree with this part of your post with only the die hard/blind Hami supporters taking a different line. The issue is not whether Hami was wrong or not, but whether Nando had the right to block his errant team mate.

IMHO Alonso should have completed his lap and dealt with Lewis through his PR machine or through the team. Two wrongs dont make a right and that is why he was punished.

Yup.

[NeoData 0]

Good points.

What you need to realise is that the collusion would have been played out over Alonso's radio. You may recall a time back in Canada when he was getting very agitated because fisi wouldn't let him by. He got so wound up that he ended up crashing into the wall.

My guess is that the plan was hatched between Alonso, his physio and his race engineer. His engineer is part of the team hence the team getting penalised. If the decision to detain Alonso had been the decision of the team the lolipop would not have been raised, the universal sign to exit in F1 parlance.

I posted a couple of youtube links yesterday but these have now been copyrighted by 'f1 management'

Fair enough that is very well what could have happened and would justify a penalty for Alonso.

But untill someone of knowledge actually stands up and confirms this I hope you can forgive me for choosing to believe the word of Ron , Alonso and his race engineer ( I just can't remember his name ) over your speculations. No offense intended ofcourse

You are spot one when you say Alonso got off lightly compared to Schumi.

That is exactly what I mean with disproportionate and illogical rullings.

I still feel Alonso shouldn't have been penalised but looking at the penalty Schumi received last year there is something very wrong.

Either Schumacher was penalised to heavily back then or the penalty Alonso got was way too light.

[Garyl2k 0]

This is crazy, firstly, no driver no matter how many WDC his earned should be given priority over another driver as this is a sport and both drivers should have equal rights to winning the WDC be it your first year or your 15th year... Remember there both starting their first season in F1 with McLaren so there is no #1 driver in McLarens eyes.

Alonso had been caught with his pants down, his excuss for sitting in the pits for an extra 10seconds were blamed on his tyre choice given to him (The ones that got him poll...) which did not match the radio conversation of which the Stewards had reviewed. The storys of RD and Alonso did not match the radio conversation and video footage evidence that they had. I think some find it a hard pill to swallow and believe to hear what they want to hear.

What LH right to swear at RD?

No he was not, but I believe that RD and LH have kissed and made up and know that what happened a moment of madness where one guy who was looking top favourate to take poll was robbed at the last few seconds due to an unsettled Alonso. People forget, these guys may get paid millions (Oh sorry thats Alonso) but they are still humans at the end of they, they can still make mistakes and Lewis being the "Rookie" is some one allowed to make mistakes at this early stage of his career. Whats Alonso's excuess?

[Max Mosley 2]

Fair enough that is very well what could have happened and would justify a penalty for Alonso.

But untill someone of knowledge actually stands up and confirms this I hope you can forgive me for choosing to believe the word of Ron , Alonso and his race engineer ( I just can't remember his name ) over your speculations. No offense intended ofcourse

You are spot one when you say Alonso got off lightly compared to Schumi.

That is exactly what I mean with disproportionate and illogical rullings.

I still feel Alonso shouldn't have been penalised but looking at the penalty Schumi received last year there is something very wrong.

Either Schumacher was penalised to heavily back then or the penalty Alonso got was way too light.

Well if you deliberately ruin someone else's lap the penalty has to be very severe indeed. Schumi's was right, and Alonso's too, asuming he is guilty. (FA only interfered with one man so it should be a little less severe.) Btw it's not just Fed Up's word - it's the stewards' too, after 8 hours of deliberation with the benefit of huge amounts of evidence we don't have.