Ode To The Humble Lewis Hamilton

[ipaneda 0]

But we don't have to answer it. I've always agreed with you that Lewis is a hypocrite. But so what? Personality pageants are for sore losers.

The point is that Alonso also cheats. There is email evidence (provided by Fernando himself) showing that Fernando enthusiastically wanted to test out or use many Ferrari secrets. Kiko are you seriously denying that Alonso cheated or wanted to cheat?

That is irrefutable, and makes Alonso a hypocrite.

[Just for the record I don't think your 6 answers are all accurate, but it doesn't matter.]

Well, it looks like we agree on more than we actually disagree. But on the cheating point, I will at least argue one last point.

How can Alonso have been cheating since the emails are dated before the infamous Ferrari file was copied? The emails prove nothing else other than two teammates (Fernando and Pedro) speculating on what their competitor may be up to. Granted, Pedro says that it comes from a good source, but a little gossip between teammates does not constitute cheating. How could Alonso at that point know that McLarens makings were of such a scale as to almost constitute industrial espionage if the facts behind such espionage (the copying of the file) had not actually happened yet? Again the email actually prove nothing.

Answer this for me convincingly and we may agree on more than the fact that Hamilton is an hypocrite and that your are good sport to argue against...

[Rainmaster 7]

Here you go, since you asked for it.... So that all those morons who stand on the sidelines of a good argument and wait for daddy Murray to show up do not say I hide in a black hole or something stupid like that:

1. I do not know is never a good response to a good argument. And by the way, pay is never an excuse not to put in the work. If anybody had earned a good vacation was the two time WDC with everything to prove in F1. Alonso put in a lot of effort in Sh#t cars for many years before earning the right to drive a good one. Anyway, as you rightly say: what do you know.

2. Was there a FIA investigation in Monaco or not? If there was, what brought it on other that Hamilton's stupid comments after he regained a few seconds on Alonso while he Alonso had the rev limiter on , as indicated by his team, and Hamilton didn't

3. Glad you agree with me: Hamilton did disobey team orders. End of the story, all that follows is a consequence of that.

4. Lewis and McLaren have denied this? The same way RD denied to have spied on Ferrari. It is true and we both know it.

5. He told the truth to the marshals? Maybe, but most certainly against the team orders AGAIN. Nice from such a great a team player. He could also have chose not to say anything as Alonso did following Japan where he could have asked the marshals to testify on Hamilton's driving behind the SC

6. Almost tempted to grant you this one, but I won't. The only reason why I won't is that Hamilton's ****ing mouth is full of bs stating what a great team mate he is and how his team has rallied around him. He doesn't have to be either: a good team mate or have a sportsmanlike conduct, but he is the one talking about it. And all the team support at the end is nothing else that national affinity and commercial interest. He should get over it; he is not such a great guy.

Guys, this is fun. Murray, I am looking forward to your response. Rainmaster, do you actually have an argument of your own? or are you going to sit around until Murray does your dirty job for you?

At the start of your post you claim I am standing on the sidelines, later on you say I am sitting around, which is it? Only playing.

Holy sh!t - Murray's my dad, I can't believe it! Also I'm not sure what 'dirty job' Murray is doing, is it because he doesn't think Alonso is perfect?

ipaneda, I already posted my thoughts, take another look at the thread.

My argument is this, F1 is full of people working to their own agendas - it is driven by money and influenced by politics. It is not a fairytale, there can only be one champion, some drivers are willing to do more to be that champion - Alonso is one of these drivers, as is Hamilton. This is not the personality world championship, it is a contest of driving skill and engineering innovation. I don't know why you are so obsessed with criticising Hamilton and defending Alonso (actually I do have a strong idea why) but almost every point you make seems to centre around Alonso, and how he is *better*.

-I believe Alonso contributed more to the testing and developement of the 2007 Mclaren, as did Pedro most likely, due to experience they probably gave greater feedback, not about work rate, about efficiency. Does that mean they should automatically get no.1 status or deserve the title more? - no it doesn't. If Alonso wants the title, he can beat Lewis on the track. Nothing to do with pay, the fact is Hamilton wouldn't of been as an effective tester as Alonso or Pedro, then again nobody thought he would do this much on the track, so maybe he did do a lot of developement. I suppose some would credit Alonso with his famous 'half a second', yeah I'm sure the engineers had nothing to do with that - smart claim there by Alonso. Really makes the team feel appreciated.

-Hamilton caused the Monaco investigation with the press, but perhaps we can forgive him as he is a rookie (not used to dealing with press, at that time), or perhaps we can't since he's beating Alonso? - your choice.

-Hungary, well Hamilton broke a team rule, in my opinion what Alonso did in response was just as bad if not worse, but neither need to be punished - team rule. It was quite clear to most that Dennis was unhappy with Alonso, that is all I am sure of. Did Hamilton say those things? -speculation, denied by Mclaren - but then again it would be. But at least Lewis talks to Dennis, unlike Alonso - didn't Alonso threaten Dennis? If true, then that is quite a silly thing to do.

To be honest, it's all quite irrelevant, you can pick many reasons or just one - Lewis Hamilton has outperformed Fernando Alonso this year, on the track - fact. As a consequence, he deserves the title more.

[Eric 0]

Holy sh!t - Murray's my dad, I can't believe it! Also I'm not sure what 'dirty job' Murray is doing, is it because he doesn't think Alonso is perfect?

If Murray's your dad, and you're my dad...my grandfather is 1 year older than me and my father is supposedly 14 years younger.

Wow. TF1's a demented family.

[ipaneda 0]

At the start of your post you claim I am standing on the sidelines, later on you say I am sitting around, which is it? Only playing.

Holy sh!t - Murray's my dad, I can't believe it! Also I'm not sure what 'dirty job' Murray is doing, is it because he doesn't think Alonso is perfect?

ipaneda, I already posted my thoughts, take another look at the thread.

My argument is this, F1 is full of people working to their own agendas - it is driven by money and influenced by politics. It is not a fairytale, there can only be one champion, some drivers are willing to do more to be that champion - Alonso is one of these drivers, as is Hamilton. This is not the personality world championship, it is a contest of driving skill and engineering innovation. I don't know why you are so obsessed with criticising Hamilton and defending Alonso (actually I do have a strong idea why) but almost every point you make seems to centre around Alonso, and how he is *better*.

-I believe Alonso contributed more to the testing and developement of the 2007 Mclaren, as did Pedro most likely, due to experience they probably gave greater feedback, not about work rate, about efficiency. Does that mean they should automatically get no.1 status or deserve the title more? - no it doesn't. If Alonso wants the title, he can beat Lewis on the track. Nothing to do with pay, the fact is Hamilton wouldn't of been as an effective tester as Alonso or Pedro, then again nobody thought he would do this much on the track, so maybe he did do a lot of developement. I suppose some would credit Alonso with his famous 'half a second', yeah I'm sure the engineers had nothing to do with that - smart claim there by Alonso. Really makes the team feel appreciated.

-Hamilton caused the Monaco investigation with the press, but perhaps we can forgive him as he is a rookie (not used to dealing with press, at that time), or perhaps we can't since he's beating Alonso? - your choice.

-Hungary, well Hamilton broke a team rule, in my opinion what Alonso did in response was just as bad if not worse, but neither need to be punished - team rule. It was quite clear to most that Dennis was unhappy with Alonso, that is all I am sure of. Did Hamilton say those things? -speculation, denied by Mclaren - but then again it would be. But at least Lewis talks to Dennis, unlike Alonso - didn't Alonso threaten Dennis? If true, then that is quite a silly thing to do.

To be honest, it's all quite irrelevant, you can pick many reasons or just one - Lewis Hamilton has outperformed Fernando Alonso this year, on the track - fact. As a consequence, he deserves the title more.

Listen, I do not have time for you. Murray is fun to argue against as he does not deny objective reality. You do. And what are you trying to tell me? That I am an Alonso fan? That I am Spanish? Thanks dude, but I think everybody here already knew that, if nothing else because I have stated as much before.

I could counter argue everything you are saying, but it is Saturday night in Madrid and it is dinner time. So I am off to behave like an adult. See yah...

[Eric 0]

Listen, I do not have time for you. Murray is fun to argue against as he does not deny objective reality. You do. And what are you trying to tell me? That I am an Alonso fan? That I am Spanish? Thanks dude, but I think everybody here already knew that, if nothing else because I have stated as much before.

I could counter argue everything you are saying, but it is Saturday night in Madrid and it is dinner time. So I am off to behave like an adult. See yah...

I sense a case of binge eating disorder. The forums have made your day rough, so you go and eat.

[Eric 0]

So it seems we are discussing Lewis vs Fernando.

Both are annoying twats.

Case closed.

[Rainmaster 7]

Listen, I do not have time for you. Murray is fun to argue against as he does not deny objective reality. You do. And what are you trying to tell me? That I am an Alonso fan? That I am Spanish? Thanks dude, but I think everybody here already knew that, if nothing else because I have stated as much before.

I could counter argue everything you are saying, but it is Saturday night in Madrid and it is dinner time. So I am off to behave like an adult. See yah...

Right OK, so you have simply decided to ignore all of my other points and runaway - that is a sure sign that you have lost the argument.

At least I took the time to make a post which dealt with the points you brought up, and didn't resort to calling you a 'moron' - nice one mate. I don't give a sh!t that your an Alonso fan, it's just your distorted view of Formula One that p**ses me off.

One question, hope you can make some time to answer - does any of it actually matter?

[Eric 0]

Right OK, so you have simply decided to ignore all of my other points and runaway - that is a sure sign that you have lost the argument.

At least I took the time to make a post which dealt with the points you brought up, and didn't resort to calling you a 'moron' - nice one mate. I don't give a sh!t that your an Alonso fan, it's just your distorted view of Formula One that p**ses me off.

One question, hope you can make some time to answer - does any of it actually matter?

Good post

[Fed up 0]

At the start of your post you claim I am standing on the sidelines, later on you say I am sitting around, which is it? Only playing.

Holy sh!t - Murray's my dad, I can't believe it! Also I'm not sure what 'dirty job' Murray is doing, is it because he doesn't think Alonso is perfect?

ipaneda, I already posted my thoughts, take another look at the thread.

My argument is this, F1 is full of people working to their own agendas - it is driven by money and influenced by politics. It is not a fairytale, there can only be one champion, some drivers are willing to do more to be that champion - Alonso is one of these drivers, as is Hamilton. This is not the personality world championship, it is a contest of driving skill and engineering innovation. I don't know why you are so obsessed with criticising Hamilton and defending Alonso (actually I do have a strong idea why) but almost every point you make seems to centre around Alonso, and how he is *better*.

-I believe Alonso contributed more to the testing and developement of the 2007 Mclaren, as did Pedro most likely, due to experience they probably gave greater feedback, not about work rate, about efficiency. Does that mean they should automatically get no.1 status or deserve the title more? - no it doesn't. If Alonso wants the title, he can beat Lewis on the track. Nothing to do with pay, the fact is Hamilton wouldn't of been as an effective tester as Alonso or Pedro, then again nobody thought he would do this much on the track, so maybe he did do a lot of developement. I suppose some would credit Alonso with his famous 'half a second', yeah I'm sure the engineers had nothing to do with that - smart claim there by Alonso. Really makes the team feel appreciated.

-Hamilton caused the Monaco investigation with the press, but perhaps we can forgive him as he is a rookie (not used to dealing with press, at that time), or perhaps we can't since he's beating Alonso? - your choice.

-Hungary, well Hamilton broke a team rule, in my opinion what Alonso did in response was just as bad if not worse, but neither need to be punished - team rule. It was quite clear to most that Dennis was unhappy with Alonso, that is all I am sure of. Did Hamilton say those things? -speculation, denied by Mclaren - but then again it would be. But at least Lewis talks to Dennis, unlike Alonso - didn't Alonso threaten Dennis? If true, then that is quite a silly thing to do.

To be honest, it's all quite irrelevant, you can pick many reasons or just one - Lewis Hamilton has outperformed Fernando Alonso this year, on the track - fact. As a consequence, he deserves the title more.

Nuff said!

[Max Mosley 2]

I've just had dinner myself (well cereal). Eric and Rainmaster always brighten a threat up!

The evidence required for the rest of this post can be found by following McDermit's link in this thread. This will give you the FIA's transcript of the hearing on 13/9/07. The evidence is incomplete because we can only read what was actually said - we don't have access to the written evidence submitted, including all the emails. Also Alonso had more important things to do so we don't get his answers.

How can Alonso have been cheating since the emails are dated before the infamous Ferrari file was copied?

Easily! Stepney and Coughlan were in contact very early on, in person, by email and by phone. The records of this have been investigated by the Italian police. Stepney passed confidential information well before the start of the season. See the transcript for details (eg pg 7 of 115).

The emails prove nothing else other than two teammates (Fernando and Pedro) speculating on what their competitor may be up to.

No. They are a lot more damning than that. Here are some choice extracts from the (restricted) information in the transcript we have.

(pg 9.115)

Nigel TOZZI (Ferrari's lawyer)

[quoting items in an email from PDLR to FA] Item 5:

[Fed up 0]

Well done Murray that must have taken you a while to gather - It is clear to most that Alonso cheated in the whole Spy scandal, but for some reason the immunity afforded to him by the FIA has somehow spread to sections of the press and the ignorant.

I dare say the above proof may still not enlighten some among us.

[kiko01 0]

Well done Murray that must have taken you a while to gather - It is clear to most that Alonso cheated in the whole Spy scandal, but for some reason the immunity afforded to him by the FIA has somehow spread to sections of the press and the ignorant.

I dare say the above proof may still not enlighten some among us.

Yeah, it's clear Alonso cheated and the team had nothing to with it.

It's official now... pigs fly

[Fed up 0]

Yeah, it's clear Alonso cheated and the team had nothing to with it.

It's official now... pigs fly

No one has said that the team has nothing to do with it - The team are responsible for their employees and so are guilty by association - Alonso, however, has been clearly implicated as one, a WDC, was explicitly prepared to use information that he knew was from another team.

It is very simple or is it a case that it is you that is simple

[Rainmaster 7]

So we're all agreed then.

[kiko01 0]

Kiko are you seriously denying that Alonso cheated or wanted to cheat?

That is irrefutable, and makes Alonso a hypocrite.

I don't think FA is God and for sure it's clear that FA got this info and would have been delighted to take advantage of it just like you or me would have done is his possition. You seem to forget that at the end the team would have benefited from it and it's ****ing clear that a lot of people whithin the team knew about it. Hypocrite is the one who tries to make us believe this was something done by FA and PDR.

The point here is not whether FA is a good guy or not. He's selfish and arrogant, i think 90 % of us would agree on that. The point here is that Lewis is probably worst than Fernando but some people here still refuses to attack him when they talk crap about Fernando for doing exactly the same things. The point here is that although a lot of people talk about FIArrari if someone has taken advantage of the FIA's decissions that one is LH, we should say FIAmilton. The point here is that the team has absolutelly showed his preferences and has given LH status number one within the team (just look at the extra laps both racers have had during the season and i still have to read the guy 7 days ago saying that he wanted to win this fair and square) Even when Fernando might be a prick and an arrogant he's right to talk the way he's talking... The good thing about this is that absolutelly noone is going to believe Mclaren treats their drivers equaly and absolutelly noone believes RD is a gentleman, no longer

[Eric 0]

So we're all agreed then.

MODS!! MODS!!! BAN THIS MAN!!! I SEE NIPPLES IN THAT PICTURE!!! PORNNN!!! BAN HIM!!!

[kiko01 0]

No one has said that the team has nothing to do with it - The team are responsible for their employees and so are guilty by association - Alonso, however, has been clearly implicated as one, a WDC, was explicitly prepared to use information that he knew was from another team.

It is very simple or is it a case that it is you that is simple

Yeah, poor RD... And you're wondering whether i'm simple?

[kiko01 0]

So we're all agreed then.

[Fed up 0]

The point here is that Lewis is probably worst than Fernando but some people here still refuses to attack him when they talk crap about Fernando for doing exactly the same things. The point here is that although a lot of people talk about FIArrari if someone has taken advantage of the FIA's decissions that one is LH, we should say FIAmilton. The point here is that the team has absolutelly showed his preferences and has given LH status number one within the team (just look at the extra laps both racers have had during the season and i still have to read the guy 7 days ago saying that he wanted to win this fair and square) Even when Fernando might be a prick and an arrogant he's right to talk the way he's talking... The good thing about this is that absolutelly noone is going to believe Mclaren treats their drivers equaly and absolutelly noone believes RD is a gentleman, no longer

For this post I have finally decided that you are a deluded fool.

Carry on

[Max Mosley 2]

I don't think FA is God and for sure it's clear that FA got this info and would have been delighted to take advantage of it just like you or me would have done is his possition. You seem to forget that at the end the team would have benefited from it and it's ****ing clear that a lot of people whithin the team knew about it. Hypocrite is the one who tries to make us believe this was something done by FA and PDR.

The point here is not whether FA is a good guy or not. He's selfish and arrogant, i think 90 % of us would agree on that. The point here is that Lewis is probably worst than Fernando but some people here still refuses to attack him when they talk crap about Fernando for doing exactly the same things. The point here is that although a lot of people talk about FIArrari if someone has taken advantage of the FIA's decissions that one is LH, we should say FIAmilton. The point here is that the team has absolutelly showed his preferences and has given LH status number one within the team (just look at the extra laps both racers have had during the season and i still have to read the guy 7 days ago saying that he wanted to win this fair and square) Even when Fernando might be a prick and an arrogant he's right to talk the way he's talking... The good thing about this is that absolutelly noone is going to believe Mclaren treats their drivers equaly and absolutelly noone believes RD is a gentleman, no longer

I always get a little frustrated, my friend, when people keep saying this. I can understand how some people might be hypocritical in their support of Hamilton over Alonso. But the argument here is purely whether Alonso cheated or not. He did.

Now as to Hamilton, yes he's just as bad. I've always said it:

I've always agreed with you that Lewis is a hypocrite. But so what? Personality pageants are for sore losers.

Problem is, some people can't accept that Fernando cheats too.

[maure 1]

Well done Murray that must have taken you a while to gather - It is clear to most that Alonso cheated in the whole Spy scandal, but for some reason the immunity afforded to him by the FIA has somehow spread to sections of the press and the ignorant.

I dare say the above proof may still not enlighten some among us.

Yep. Alonso and Alonso alone had Ferrari's information. No one at all whatsoever in McLaren knew about it besides him. That much is clear.

McLaren didn't cheat. RD is not a liar, a thief, and a coward. Hamilton didn't hide information from FIA and didn't lie during the investigation. No, no. We are all intelligent enough to realize that nothing like this could have ever happened. I mean, RD and Hamilton are British, come on, while Alonso is Spanish. Need I say more???

Good Lord, what a relief. Phewwwww.........

[maure 1]

Problem is, some people can't accept that Fernando cheats too.

Are you kidding? Alonso is guilty by default. It is a fact. Haven't you been watching the last few seasons?

Give me an evil and RD will accuse Alonso of it. What other proof does anyone need that Alonso is guilty?

[Quiet One 15]

So we're all agreed then.

Yes.

I'd hit her.

[Fed up 0]

Yep. Alonso and Alonso alone had Ferrari's information. No one at all whatsoever in McLaren knew about it besides him. That much is clear.

McLaren didn't cheat. RD is not a liar, a thief, and a coward. Hamilton didn't hide information from FIA and didn't lie during the investigation. No, no. We are all intelligent enough to realize that nothing like this could have ever happened. I mean, RD and Hamilton are British, come on, while Alonso is Spanish. Need I say more???

Good Lord, what a relief. Phewwwww.........

In the real world cases are settled when there is proof - There is documented proof that Alonso sought to obtain ferrari secrets for gain - There is no proof that lewis is involved or Ron or whoever - You can speculate that they were involved but unless you have proof you are just speculating.

[Eric 0]

Are you kidding? Alonso is guilty by default. It is a fact. Haven't you been watching the last few seasons?

Give me an evil and RD will accuse Alonso of it. What other proof does anyone need that Alonso is guilty?

We ALL cheat.

I cheat. I cheated on tests when I was 5 or 6.

There is soo much pressure for a professional team of any kind to push the rules. The sponsors make hefty demands for the hefty sums of money they give, so they will do everything to get that edge. Also, pro athletes and teams are in the top of their trade...to get there, you need a strong desire and a competitive spirit...and that competitive spirit usually will yield pushing to the limits...and beyond. Victory is a sweet, sweet thing. After all, no one remembers the losers...(unless they were Yuji Ide and lost in a huge way...)