Autumnpuma 0 Report post Posted October 4, 2007 Thought police. It's perfectly legal (though personally repugnant) to be a racist and to believe your race is superior. Belief and thought are, I assume, still freedoms even the North Koreans enjoy. Now expressions of racism on this forum may not be what Wes wants, so perhaps all posters should consider themselves warned?? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Piotr 0 Report post Posted October 4, 2007 Yes, in fact I totally support him on that one. His salary is a shame when compared to other drivers, it was very low even for a rookie, now that he showed his worth it is obviously ridiculous. I was merely stating my opinion on what he meant. No irony in that post Yup, and his $10 M raise as compared to Kubica's $1.1 M. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Piotr 0 Report post Posted October 4, 2007 OH MY! I just read page 5. Where did THAT come from? On the other hand goferrarigo recently made a Polish joke to me replied to by Pumpdoc... JUST KIDDING!! I really can take a joke , you know! But I feel like taking a shower after reading previous posts... Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kenneth3 0 Report post Posted October 4, 2007 Yes. I'm quite keen to understand what Kenneth's trying to say. Maybe the thread should be moved to the cafe? Anyway, perhaps Kenneth can list all the ways that he is "racist". I think that would help since he says we are all racists but then seems to confuse the issue. So, Kenneth, when are you in favour of "racist" views and when are you in favour of discrimination? Do you believe in racial superiority? OK sorry if I misunderstood you. I still think you're misguided though. Whether you hate someone's character shouldn't affect how worthy a WDC they are. It's a driving contest, not a personality competition or a beauty pageant. Also be clear about what Hamilton's fans have been saying. I don't remember anyone saying Alonso is somehow cheating by asking for No. 1 status. They're not "accusing" him of a crime, but they are simply stating the fact that he did want No. 1 status. Clearly they hope he doesn't get it, but that doesn't mean they are suggesting he is cheating or breaking some rules by asking for preferential treatment. Furthermore, it's very hard to say things like you did without getting tangled up in your own hypocrisy. I mean, Fernando is a cheater, no one denies that. He is also a liar. So for a start you accept cheating and lying, but not hypocrisy? Doesn't seem very logical to me. But then, Alonso himself has repeatedly complained about cheating, notably when Schumi did it in Monaco last year. That's hypocrisy! I would say Alonso is as much of a hypocrite as Hamilton, not that it matters in the slightest. first i would like to apoligize myslef if with my comments i hurt someone, it wasn't meant for that, when i addressed LH black is because sometimes when you have big ears for example you joke with it, secondly no i don't believe in racial superiority, i only said that i don't want my daughter marry one , that the only kind if racism that am i part of , about the disability issue when the argument went more on,m i only said what i read from prof. people about the issue, if it is not ture don't know but i remeber when i read it many valid argument ( theories)about it. now i'm fed up about it and like me there are black people ( friends of mine) that they don't want their children married whites. about other issue that i mentioned through all of this course of debating are politics, if you think deep down , example Malta illegal imigrants etc... those are only international issue and Malta internal issues....you can agree with it or not everyone may have his own views.... cheers Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
BradSpeedMan 6 Report post Posted October 4, 2007 first i would like to apoligize myslef if with my comments i hurt someone, it wasn't meant for that, when i addressed LH black is because sometimes when you have big ears for example you joke with it, secondly no i don't believe in racial superiority, i only said that i don't want my daughter marry one , that the only kind if racism that am i part of ,about the disability issue when the argument went more on,m i only said what i read from prof. people about the issue, if it is not ture don't know but i remeber when i read it many valid argument ( theories)about it. now i'm fed up about it and like me there are black people ( friends of mine) that they don't want their children married whites. about other issue that i mentioned through all of this course of debating are politics, if you think deep down , example Malta illegal imigrants etc... those are only international issue and Malta internal issues....you can agree with it or not everyone may have his own views.... cheers I believe deep down Kenneth is a good guy, I really feel for him, shame his been brought up wih these views... wow he even apologised... Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
LabradoRacer 2 Report post Posted October 4, 2007 So a drag racist is................. no, I don't think we'll go there. Devastating humo(u)r. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ipaneda 0 Report post Posted October 4, 2007 Furthermore, it's very hard to say things like you did without getting tangled up in your own hypocrisy. I mean, Fernando is a cheater, no one denies that. He is also a liar. So for a start you accept cheating and lying, but not hypocrisy? Doesn't seem very logical to me. But then, Alonso himself has repeatedly complained about cheating, notably when Schumi did it in Monaco last year. That's hypocrisy! I would say Alonso is as much of a hypocrite as Hamilton, not that it matters in the slightest. Murray, you really have to try a bit harder. Your logic is completly flawed. As you rightly state, your argument is based on the fact that everybody agrees with you that Fernado is a cheater and a liar. Needless to say, I do not; or at least I wont based exclusively on your assertions. You do have to present some evidence to convince me of that fact. And of course one can be a good driver and WDC and be an hypocrit -Hamilton is a testament to that fact-, but then one will not be worthy of admiration; not mine at least. But, again, I am not as presumptuous as to assume that anybody would give a Sh#t about who I admire... Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Max Mosley 2 Report post Posted October 4, 2007 Thanks for apologising Kenneth, but you didn't offend me at all! About your daughter, presumably you agree that who she marries will be her choice? Perhaps she will like black men. Also, don't you think you should be absolutely sure about the "disability argument" before you accept it? You should be able to find information about it very easily if it's such a threat to children! You do have to present some evidence to convince me of that fact [that Alonso cheated and lied] It's common knowledge, and you can find out why by (for example) reading the email evidence Fernando himself submitted to the FIA spygate hearing. It shows an enthusiastic Fernando discussing information that he knew came from Stepney and that should not be known by anyone in McLaren, including Ferrari pit strategies, and designs that he wanted to test out on the McLaren. And of course one can be a good driver and WDC and be an hypocrit -Hamilton is a testament to that fact-, but then one will not be worthy of admiration; not mine at least. But, again, I am not as presumptuous as to assume that anybody would give a Sh#t about who I admire... Yes but he will still be just as worthy a WDC, in other words just as deserving of the WDC. Whether he is deserving of your admiration as a person is another matter, and as you suggest, not something that I care all that much about. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ipaneda 0 Report post Posted October 5, 2007 It's common knowledge, and you can find out why by (for example) reading the email evidence Fernando himself submitted to the FIA spygate hearing. It shows an enthusiastic Fernando discussing information that he knew came from Stepney and that should not be known by anyone in McLaren, including Ferrari pit strategies, and designs that he wanted to test out on the McLaren.Yes but he will still be just as worthy a WDC, in other words just as deserving of the WDC. Whether he is deserving of your admiration as a person is another matter, and as you suggest, not something that I care all that much about. Again, your logic is flawed. All that Alonso has done to diserve being called a liar and a cheater was to enthusiasticaly discuss information he knew came from Stepney? Is that all you have against him? It pales in comparison to what Hamilton has done this year and I do not think its makes him either a liar nor a cheater. And how do you know Hamilton didn't enthusiastically discussed Ferrari strategies too... Quite lame argument, you will have to try harder... Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Autumnpuma 0 Report post Posted October 5, 2007 Again, your logic is flawed. All that Alonso has done to diserve being called a liar and a cheater was to enthusiasticaly discuss information he knew came from Stepney? Is that all you have against him? It pales in comparison to what Hamilton has done this year and I do not think its makes him either a liar nor a cheater. And how do you know Hamilton didn't enthusiastically discussed Ferrari strategies too... Quite lame argument, you will have to try harder... Hmm. Murray may just come back and debate in earnest with you. I hope you have a good vacuum handy to get up all those pieces your argument will be ripped into.... Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
KoolMonkey 0 Report post Posted October 5, 2007 When you think about it, Lewis did benefit from the Ferrari data lol. He was copying Alonso's setup right? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Max Mosley 2 Report post Posted October 5, 2007 I do not think [illegally discussing, and at least planning to use, confidential Ferrari information, for which his team was handed a record penalty] makes him either a liar nor a cheater Well you must have a very convenient definition of "cheating" then. The rest of the world accepts Alonso cheated, or at least wanted to, which is as good as when we're assessing his character. In what way is using illegal information not cheating? All that Alonso has done to diserve being called a liar and a cheater was to enthusiasticaly discuss information he knew came from Stepney? Is that all you have against him? No, but one irrefutable argument will do. It pales in comparison to what Hamilton has done this year Who is worse is irrelevant. If you hate hypocrites, then you hate hypocrites. Fernando complains vociferously about MS's cheating, and then is caught cheating too. That makes him a hypocrite. And as I said originally, if you claim you hate hypocrites, but then make light of Fernando's hypocrisy because you like him, that makes you a hypocrite. Finally, I disagree that Hamilton has cheated more than Alonso. I answered your points about Hamilton before and I don't see anything there that was worse than deliberately using illegal information, for which the team was handed a record penalty and season-long disqualification. Fernando was heavily involved in the biggest scandal to rock the sport in years. Lewis at worst gained an extra lap in Q3 against team orders, which btw is not technically cheating at all. And how do you know Hamilton didn't enthusiastically discussed Ferrari strategies too Perhaps he did, but what have I said to make you think I care? I treat F1 as a ruthless on- and off-track contest, not a personality pageant. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Rainmaster 7 Report post Posted October 5, 2007 Time to get out the vaccum, I think. Or perhaps a black hole is required to clean up the mess... Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Autumnpuma 0 Report post Posted October 5, 2007 Ah, Murray, it's a great thing to watch you in action....especially when I'm not the one at the point of your rapier-wit. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
KoolMonkey 0 Report post Posted October 6, 2007 Awww come on. No one liked my wity repartee about Lewis stealing from Ferrari? Boo. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Piotr 0 Report post Posted October 6, 2007 Awww come on. No one liked my wity repartee about Lewis stealing from Ferrari? Boo. No, we were just contemplaiting and admiring in a reverend silence... Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ipaneda 0 Report post Posted October 6, 2007 Ofcourse if you are all biased in favour of Hamilton you will favour Murray's arguments. But really Murray, two days thiking about it and still all that you can produce is the stupid email argument. I am amazed how the whole spy saga has been turned around to allow you to conclude that Alonso is a cheater. He is no more and no less of a cheater than Hamilton in this particular case. All he did was send an email to Pedro questioning some information Pedro claimed came directly from Ferrari, so what? On top of it all, the emails pre-date the copying of the Ferrari file, so Alonso was right to actually question information that at that point was nothing mor than gassip. Was it Alonso who cheated? No, McLaren did. And, if any, both Hamilton and Alonso benefited from it. I will go back and refute every single point you made before, but for the time being, a few more examples of hypocresy: - I will quit F1 if i am sanctioned for my driving in Japan (right when you are about to sign the contract of your life) - I did not put foot wrong behind the SC (righ, ask webber about it or any other driver for that matter) Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
maure 1 Report post Posted October 6, 2007 Ah, Murray, it's a great thing to watch you in action....especially when I'm not the one at the point of your rapier-wit. Wit? Give me a break. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
maure 1 Report post Posted October 6, 2007 Ofcourse if you are all biased in favour of Hamilton you will favour Murray's arguments. But really Murray, two days thiking about it and still all that you can produce is the stupid email argument. I am amazed how the whole spy saga has been turned around to allow you to conclude that Alonso is a cheater. He is no more and no less of a cheater than Hamilton in this particular case. All he did was send an email to Pedro questioning some information Pedro claimed came directly from Ferrari, so what? On top of it all, the emails pre-date the copying of the Ferrari file, so Alonso was right to actually question information that at that point was nothing mor than gassip. Was it Alonso who cheated? No, McLaren did. And, if any, both Hamilton and Alonso benefited from it. I will go back and refute every single point you made before, but for the time being, a few more examples of hypocresy: - I will quit F1 if i am sanctioned for my driving in Japan (right when you are about to sign the contract of your life) - I did not put foot wrong behind the SC (righ, ask webber about it or any other driver for that matter) Yep. Alonso is guilty of not hiding information and of not lying to FIA... and, I forgot, RD claims that Alonso tried to blackmail him. Alonso is the devil. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Rainmaster 7 Report post Posted October 6, 2007 Ofcourse if you are all biased in favour of Hamilton you will favour Murray's arguments. But really Murray, two days thiking about it and still all that you can produce is the stupid email argument. I am amazed how the whole spy saga has been turned around to allow you to conclude that Alonso is a cheater. He is no more and no less of a cheater than Hamilton in this particular case. All he did was send an email to Pedro questioning some information Pedro claimed came directly from Ferrari, so what? On top of it all, the emails pre-date the copying of the Ferrari file, so Alonso was right to actually question information that at that point was nothing mor than gassip. Was it Alonso who cheated? No, McLaren did. And, if any, both Hamilton and Alonso benefited from it. I will go back and refute every single point you made before, but for the time being, a few more examples of hypocresy: - I will quit F1 if i am sanctioned for my driving in Japan (right when you are about to sign the contract of your life) - I did not put foot wrong behind the SC (righ, ask webber about it or any other driver for that matter) Good counter argument there. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ipaneda 0 Report post Posted October 6, 2007 Yeah it wasn't polite I agree, but because of our well-known different images of F1, I don't think it was so bad! As you know I think all's fair in love, war and F1. They aren't there to be nice to each other, they're there to win. I don't remember (but I could be wrong!) ever criticising Alonso's comments, apart from saying that he is so bad at making them that they will hurt his cause, and also saying that I don't want any driver to have preferential treatment. I mean, I've supported Nando more than anybody over the spy row - he clearly cheated but it doesn't bother me at all, it's what all the greats did. They are all arrogant and rude too: Senna, Schumi, now Alonso and Hamilton. I don't know. When was he confirmed as a driver? I think he did a fair amount of testing as soon as he was confirmed, but you can't expect a rookie without even any testing experience to contribute as much as a 2x WDC who's getting paid 20x as much. I'm still not sure that he really triggered that investigation. Perhaps he did, but even then, I don't think it was intentional. If it was intentional, then he's the best manipulator of results in the history of F1. That'll stand him in good stead - Ferrari must be beckoning! He did disobey team orders. But so have many drivers, and in Lewis's case, he was clearly correct that both drivers could have done the extra lap. It's debatable imho whether that justifies his disobedience or not. Lewis and the McLaren team have denied he said this, I believe. He told the truth to the marshals? Hardly the worst thing in the world. He's not there to massage his team mate's feelings, nor to be sportsmanlike, imho. Here you go, since you asked for it.... So that all those morons who stand on the sidelines of a good argument and wait for daddy Murray to show up do not say I hide in a black hole or something stupid like that: 1. I do not know is never a good response to a good argument. And by the way, pay is never an excuse not to put in the work. If anybody had earned a good vacation was the two time WDC with everything to prove in F1. Alonso put in a lot of effort in Sh#t cars for many years before earning the right to drive a good one. Anyway, as you rightly say: what do you know. 2. Was there a FIA investigation in Monaco or not? If there was, what brought it on other that Hamilton's stupid comments after he regained a few seconds on Alonso while he Alonso had the rev limiter on , as indicated by his team, and Hamilton didn't 3. Glad you agree with me: Hamilton did disobey team orders. End of the story, all that follows is a consequence of that. 4. Lewis and McLaren have denied this? The same way RD denied to have spied on Ferrari. It is true and we both know it. 5. He told the truth to the marshals? Maybe, but most certainly against the team orders AGAIN. Nice from such a great a team player. He could also have chose not to say anything as Alonso did following Japan where he could have asked the marshals to testify on Hamilton's driving behind the SC 6. Almost tempted to grant you this one, but I won Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kiko01 0 Report post Posted October 6, 2007 Here you go, since you asked for it.... So that all those morons who stand on the sidelines of a good argument and wait for daddy Murray to show up do not say I hide in a black hole or something stupid like that:1. I do not know is never a good response to a good argument. And by the way, pay is never an excuse not to put in the work. If anybody had earned a good vacation was the two time WDC with everything to prove in F1. Alonso put in a lot of effort in Sh#t cars for many years before earning the right to drive a good one. Anyway, as you rightly say: what do you know. 2. Was there a FIA investigation in Monaco or not? If there was, what brought it on other that Hamilton's stupid comments after he regained a few seconds on Alonso while he Alonso had the rev limiter on , as indicated by his team, and Hamilton didn't 3. Glad you agree with me: Hamilton did disobey team orders. End of the story, all that follows is a consequence of that. 4. Lewis and McLaren have denied this? The same way RD denied to have spied on Ferrari. It is true and we both know it. 5. He told the truth to the marshals? Maybe, but most certainly against the team orders AGAIN. Nice from such a great a team player. He could also have chose not to say anything as Alonso did following Japan where he could have asked the marshals to testify on Hamilton's driving behind the SC 6. Almost tempted to grant you this one, but I won Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ipaneda 0 Report post Posted October 6, 2007 They will not be able to answer this... Do i need to say i agree? Well, I fell kind of lonely making my case out here, so it would actually help... Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kiko01 0 Report post Posted October 6, 2007 Well, I fell kind of lonely making my case out here, so it would actually help... I do agree Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Max Mosley 2 Report post Posted October 6, 2007 They will not be able to answer this... Do i need to say i agree? But we don't have to answer it. I've always agreed with you that Lewis is a hypocrite. But so what? Personality pageants are for sore losers. The point is that Alonso also cheats. There is email evidence (provided by Fernando himself) showing that Fernando enthusiastically wanted to test out or use many Ferrari secrets. Kiko are you seriously denying that Alonso cheated or wanted to cheat? That is irrefutable, and makes Alonso a hypocrite. [Just for the record I don't think your 6 answers are all accurate, but it doesn't matter.] Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
