"shameless Hypocrites Devoid Of Any Integrity"!

[pabloh20 1]

What's the IQ of your milkman?

Good point, well made, Sir.

[Max Mosley 2]

Kimi and Massa had equal fastest laps till Brazil. And then Kimi set the fastest lap in Brazil, thus took the cup...

Massa lost any mathematical chance of wining in the second half so Kimi was rightfully given the better setup...

Anyways it makes not point to discuss this with you, Brad...

Ah? So perhaps Kimi only won the WDC due to team orders?

[Quiet One 15]

Ah? So perhaps Kimi only won the WDC due to team orders?

I don't think there were team orders. I do think that Massa didn't pose a real fight against Kimi in the last race. Not sure he would have won even if he tried.

People tend to confuse "team orders" with "team work". A guy can let his team mate win either because he thinks it's the right thing to do (not too likely, I used to think so about DC with Mika until he proved me worng), because the team convinces him that the best result for the team is the best result for him (I think this is the case with Massa, the contract renewal being the means to do this) or because the team expressly tell the driver "yield your position!". Only the last one is a team order. The other two are not and are hardly punishable and I am not even sure they are at all unethical. If you want to avoid all this, then a one-car-per-team-rule should be applied. What's the use of having two cars per team if it is just everybody for themselves?

So, I don't think there were any team orders. As far as Kimi is concerned. He won because Massa didn't pose a really hard fight (though I insist I am not sure it would have made much difference in the end) and because of the unilkely chain of coincidences between a Lewis making a extremely stupid mistake and Nando being unable to take advantage of it.

A deserved championship, but not a Schumi like championship by any means don't you think?

[Max Mosley 2]

Yeah I think he probably deserved it in the end. I'm just interested in what other people think!

[goferrarigo 0]

Yeah I think he probably deserved it in the end. I'm just interested in what other people think!

Kimi did deserve this WDC. but without a team effort from Massa in France(Eric says- i missed th race) and Brazil, it would have been much harder/impossible

[Eric 0]

Kimi did deserve this WDC. but without a team effort from Massa in France(Eric says- i missed th race) and Brazil, it would have been much harder/impossible

Yes, team orders in France and Brazil (the only two races I watched) won it for Kimsy.

[Grabthaw the Hammerslayer 4]

Yes, team orders in France and Brazil (the only two races I watched) won it for Kimsy.

No, Eric remember there are no team orders in F1 <cough> -

Massa's tyres were cold, no he had traction problems, er actually he was conserving his engine (extracts from the "Good Excuses For Getting Around The No Team Orders Rule 2007 Manual", page 34 )

[Max Mosley 2]

Hmm. So to all those who think team orders (Massa's cooperation, charitable nature etc) won it for Kimi: do you think he deserves the title? In other words, if he only won it due to help from Massa, why does he deserve it?

[Eric 0]

Hmm. So to all those who think team orders (Massa's cooperation, charitable nature etc) won it for Kimi: do you think he deserves the title? In other words, if he only won it due to help from Massa, why does he deserve it?

No.

This year's Kimi was Pauli Raikkonen.

The real Kimi has a blonde fauxhawk and big sunglasses. But he was in a Johnnie Walker coma after dealing with depression of 2006 the hard way. So his robot clone Pauli drove.

[KoolMonkey 0]

Hmm. So to all those who think team orders (Massa's cooperation, charitable nature etc) won it for Kimi: do you think he deserves the title? In other words, if he only won it due to help from Massa, why does he deserve it?

Kimi won it due to his own actions in the car. I didn't see in Massa's attitude or on track behavior any intention to help Kimi. Yes I know Massa said he would help, but he also first said he would, then wouldn't, then he would. In the end, what help did he provide? Kimi beat him on carrying more fuel and on faster in & out laps. He knew when to be patient and when to put the hammer down. Now, if Kimi had less fuel and somehow ended up in front of Massa this argument might have some weight behind it. But it doesn't. Kimi's ability to go faster with more fuel won him the two races people seem to think Massa gifted to him, and ultimately won him the championship.

Kimi more than deserved the WDC. He never once complained or said a bad word. He stayed positive to the end and he won. Fantastic. The way he won is even more amazing. He managed to get his car setup how he liked it and the 2nd half of the season he did amazing. Many of you forget that in one race, Kimi sat right behind Massa for most of the race. If there were team orders, Kimi would have been given that win too you would imagine. Instead Massa won and Kimi came second. So, no there were no team orders in that regard.

[Grabthaw the Hammerslayer 4]

So his robot clone Pauli drove.

Ah, so when McLaren said they were struggling to get Data out of the car they meant something different.....

[Rainmaster 7]

Kimi deserves his title, I think there were team orders (of a sort)* in Brazil, but not in France (why would there be?).

*See the [not so] Quiet One's post.

[Eric 0]

Kimi deserves his title, I think there were team orders (of a sort)* in Brazil, but not in France (why would there be?).

*See the [not so] Quiet One's post.

There would be because Kimi was on a streak and had finally found his place on the team and was getting results. He had more momentum than Massa, who was floundering at the time, so they decided Kimi was their best hope for the title, not Massa.

[Rainmaster 7]

There would be because Kimi was on a streak and had finally found his place on the team and was getting results. He had more momentum than Massa, who was floundering at the time, so they decided Kimi was their best hope for the title, not Massa.

Sorry I'm not convinced about France, Raikkonen won that race because he had a better strategy (as one of the drivers always has to have) and seemed to have a very small but genuine edge over Massa, and because Massa supposedly encountered traffic (Massa said nothing about helping the team after France, however he did complain of traffic). Raikkonen may have found the right setup in the previous US GP (set fastest lap, stayed with Massa) but he was by no means 'on a streak', it was just the first warning sign that he was starting to become on the level of Felipe in terms of pace. In fact Massa had beaten Raikkonen five times in the first seven races of the season, so if anything he would still be Ferrari's best bet, so to speak. If I'm correct then at that point in the championship, Massa had seven more points than Kimi.

Now you could argue that at the British GP Raikkonen would of been given preferential treatment, but we'll never know as Felipe had a problem on the grid. I just think it was far too early for Ferrari to be backing a driver, and if they were going to back one at that point in the championship, surely it would be Massa? (based on his results)

[Eric 0]

Ah, so when McLaren said they were struggling to get Data out of the car they meant something different.....

Yes! Now you understand.

Sorry I'm not convinced about France, Raikkonen won that race because he had a better strategy (as one of the drivers always has to have) and seemed to have a very small but genuine edge over Massa, and because Massa supposedly encountered traffic (Massa said nothing about helping the team after France, however he did complain of traffic). Raikkonen may have found the right setup in the previous US GP (set fastest lap, stayed with Massa) but he was by no means 'on a streak', it was just the first warning sign that he was starting to become on the level of Felipe in terms of pace. In fact Massa had beaten Raikkonen five times in the first seven races of the season, so if anything he would still be Ferrari's best bet, so to speak. If I'm correct then at that point in the championship, Massa had seven more points than Kimi.

Now you could argue that at the British GP Raikkonen would of been given team orders, but we'll never know as Felipe had a problem. I just think it was far too early for Ferrari to be backing a driver, and if they were going to back one at that point in the championship, surely it would be Massa? (based on his results)

Well I am

Kimi had the better strategy to win. Massa did not encounter traffic while in the lead; Kimi was already in first. Yes, so it technically wasn't "team orders," but it was Ferrari favoring Kimi, which to me is just as good as team orders.

[Rainmaster 7]

Well I am

Kimi had the better strategy to win. Massa did not encounter traffic while in the lead; Kimi was already in first. Yes, so it technically wasn't "team orders," but it was Ferrari favoring Kimi, which to me is just as good as team orders.

I suppose that we'll have to agree to disagree, and I'll have to disagree with you and agree with myself.

[Eric 0]

I suppose that we'll have to agree to disagree, and I'll have to disagree with you and agree with myself.

Well, I agree with you, but only when I disagree with myself agreeing with you agreeing with yourself because in all honest I disagree with you, who also agrees with you, while I agree with myself, who no one agrees with and who you disagree with, but in the end we're all God's children so let's have se---I mean a group hug.

[Rainmaster 7]

Well, I agree with you, but only when I disagree with myself agreeing with you agreeing with yourself because in all honest I disagree with you, who also agrees with you, while I agree with myself, who no one agrees with and who you disagree with, but in the end we're all God's children so let's have se---I mean a group hug.

Agreed, although I'd prefer se...nah actually I'm restricted from doing that by a court of law, so a group hug it is.

[Eric 0]

Agreed, although I'd prefer se...nah actually I'm restricted from doing that by a court of law, so a group hug it is.

Yeah, just six more years and the I'll invite you over for some hot, juicy, dripping...hamburgers

[Rainmaster 7]

[quote name='Erico Suav

[redfive 0]

Kimi and Massa had equal fastest laps till Brazil. And then Kimi set the fastest lap in Brazil, thus took the cup...

Massa lost any mathematical chance of wining in the second half so Kimi was rightfully given the better setup...

Anyways it makes not point to discuss this with you, Brad...

Even though team orders are illegal and McLaren had a steward in their garage to ensure they did not do what the FIA have allowed Ferrari to do....

[goferrarigo 0]

Even though team orders are illegal and McLaren had a steward in their garage to ensure they did not do what the FIA have allowed Ferrari to do....

Team orders are illegal, team cooperation is not. If Massa made a scene about preferential treatment, then it would be Team orders otherwise its it helping each other out...

[redfive 0]

Team orders are illegal, team cooperation is not. If Massa made a scene about preferential treatment, then it would be Team orders otherwise its it helping each other out...

by team co-operatoion do you mean Massa being told to cede to Kimi?

lol the title of this thread is apt!

[goferrarigo 0]

by team co-operatoion do you mean Massa being told to cede to Kimi?

lol the title of this thread is apt!

I know its kinda ironic, but still where is the proof he ceded???