So What Exactly Was Different Without The Electronics ?!

[Rainmaster 7]

The ban on traction control will have little effect on overtaking. The aerodynamics is where the problem lies, because it is virtually impossible for anyone to get close enough to the car infront

Indeed.

Poor Kimi! In Schumi's old days this race would have not been labeled as "boring" but as "wonderful, in terms of strategy"

Indeed Of course we know that strategy had nothing to do with Kimi's win today, it was all down to his amazing pace...

[DOF_power 0]

Anyway, you're ALWAYS going to have the dirty air problem, the only situation where it wouldn't exist is if the car were going very slowly, or the car didn't exist at all.

The dirty air/aero "problem", very much like the global warming "problem", is a fallacy.

Every object going at high speeds produces dirty air (either the object or the athmosphere would have to disapear), but if say the ground effect/underbody downforce (witch is clean) combined with 21 inch slicks can overcome it then you can have racing.

[Quiet One 15]

The ban of TC does not help overtaking per se, and it was never meant that way.

The ban of TC gave some degree of control back to the drivers...and drivers are prone to mistakes (unless you are Massa, then you are predestinated to commit them). As such, it minimizes the car differences a little. Jarno yesterday and Nando at Melbourne are good examples of what a driver can do. Both seemed driving raggedly, both were actually walking on a thin line that TC would have not allowed them to, in order to desperately hang onto a minimum difference. As such, TC ban adds a whole new dimension.

I agree it is not enough, as, for example, a sudden manoeuvre from the car in front of you cwhen trying to overtake it can send you to the grass. So the aero issue still needs to be addressed (as well as tires and, hopefully, the return of more powerful engines), but it is not true that TC ban has no effect whatsoever.

[AleHop 0]

Anyway, you're ALWAYS going to have the dirty air problem, the only situation where it wouldn't exist is if the car were going very slowly, or the car didn't exist at all.

The dirty air/aero "problem", very much like the global warming "problem", is a fallacy.

No way, it cannot be like global warming "problem", at least I haven't seen Al Gore make money on dirty air/aero "problem".

No, seriously it is a big big truth. Pedro de la Rosa, like DOF, always says that overtaking "problem" will not be solved untill all cars wear an standard non disturbing aero package with minimal improvements. He said front wing should be much lower than now and a few other things. He is against standard ECU, TC/EBS ban, etc... I think they should do both things in the good of F1 purity.

[Rainmaster 7]

The ban of TC does not help overtaking per se, and it was never meant that way.

The ban of TC gave some degree of control back to the drivers...and drivers are prone to mistakes (unless you are Massa, then you are predestinated to commit them). As such, it minimizes the car differences a little. Jarno yesterday and Nando at Melbourne are good examples of what a driver can do. Both seemed driving raggedly, both were actually walking on a thin line that TC would have not allowed them to, in order to desperately hang onto a minimum difference. As such, TC ban adds a whole new dimension.

I agree it is not enough, as, for example, a sudden manoeuvre from the car in front of you cwhen trying to overtake it can send you to the grass. So the aero issue still needs to be addressed (as well as tires and, hopefully, the return of more powerful engines), but it is not true that TC ban has no effect whatsoever.

Yup, that sums it up rather nicely.

[HandyNZL 1]

The ban of TC does not help overtaking per se, and it was never meant that way.

The ban of TC gave some degree of control back to the drivers...and drivers are prone to mistakes (unless you are Massa, then you are predestinated to commit them). As such, it minimizes the car differences a little. Jarno yesterday and Nando at Melbourne are good examples of what a driver can do. Both seemed driving raggedly, both were actually walking on a thin line that TC would have not allowed them to, in order to desperately hang onto a minimum difference. As such, TC ban adds a whole new dimension.

I agree it is not enough, as, for example, a sudden manoeuvre from the car in front of you cwhen trying to overtake it can send you to the grass. So the aero issue still needs to be addressed (as well as tires and, hopefully, the return of more powerful engines), but it is not true that TC ban has no effect whatsoever.

I agree with the summary beforehere presented

[schumi13 0]

Yeah I don't think the banning of TC had anything to do with improving overtaking it had everything to do with improving racing and it has because you see the drivers actually working the wheel. I'm sure Massa dropped it anyone who just got shown by his teamate would be hot in the head and I'm surprised Rob Smedley never calmed him down on the radio. He's been rattled by Raikkonen.

[Argento Reloaded 1]

There is no risk of a shortcut!

[schumi4ever 0]

I disagree - I think equality WOULD increase overtaking.

I'm struggling to understand how this would be the case... If Hamilton in a Mclaren finds it impossible to get past Webber in a Red bull car as seen in yesterdays race, then how would making the cars equal improve the chances of overtaking?? If anything it would mean overtaking would be even harder because everyone would have the exact same power etc...

[5P33D3V1L 0]

Maybe we dont need more changes,

Maybe today was just a bland normal race.

Like every now and then you have a bland boring football match or a boring moto gp lights to flag win with no change in race order.

It happens, so now lets look forward to Bahrain and hope for better.

Atleast Massa entertained us today with his unbelievable lack of car control.

[stopkidding 0]

there is a lot more to racing than just overtaking. for me the thrill lies in following the race develop over the time, analyzing sector times to figure out who is on what strategy and hope that there is some close, tense racing between almost equally matched cars and drivers. throw in some gutsy overtaking and rain as a bonus and i am happier!

[DOF_power 0]

I'm struggling to understand how this would be the case... If Hamilton in a Mclaren finds it impossible to get past Webber in a Red bull car as seen in yesterdays race, then how would making the cars equal improve the chances of overtaking?? If anything it would mean overtaking would be even harder because everyone would have the exact same power etc...

Agreed with these cars part of the problem with overtaking is that they're too equal and therefor neither horsepower nor brake power can do something about wake turbulence.

The old cars (pre wings/pre widetrack/pre slicks) would overtake each other if equal only under several conditions, namely on tracks where slipstreaming was possible like the old Monza, the old Spa, the old Reims. Technical tracks like the old Nurburgring and old Monaco were poor to downright disastrous where driver were forced to wait for the "missed gear" or even more so for someone in front to get into an accident/technical problem/injured/killed.

[HandyNZL 1]

Agreed with these cars part of the problem with overtaking is that they're too equal and therefor neither horsepower nor brake power can do something about wake turbulence.

The old cars (pre wings/pre widetrack/pre slicks) would overtake each other if equal only under several conditions, namely on tracks where slipstreaming was possible like the old Monza, the old Spa, the old Reims. Technical tracks like the old Nurburgring and old Monaco were poor to downright disastrous where driver were forced to wait for the "missed gear" or even more so for someone in front to get into an accident/technical problem/injured/killed.

Agree here in that cars in the 80's were not hundreths of a second slower or faster than each other...there was some pretty big disparity in terms of grip, top speeds, and horsepower back then.

Evolution has created the ultimate beast, and its one in the same between the teams of today

[maure 1]

Want overtaking? Reverse the grid, fuel to the flag, and eliminate all restrictions that don't affect safety.

[DOF_power 0]

Want overtaking? Reverse the grid, fuel to the flag, and eliminate all restrictions that don't affect safety.

Won't improve much. The turbulence parades like Monaco 2007, Hungary 2007, Turkey 2007, Malaysia 2008 prove that. This turbulent aero has got to go.

[HandyNZL 1]

Let them just paint lanes on the tracks and then no one has to pass anyone

[Magus Perde 0]

There's a simple dynamic that would re-introduce the excitement back into F1 and give you overtaking in spades (race 2 and we're already talking about getting the excitement back in?!!) and that is to get rid of qualifying and draw numbers for grid slots (seems to work for football draws). Imagine a race with Raikkonen and Hamilton at the back and Button, Vettel and Fisichella at the front plus the mixture of other displaced drivers spread throughout the field.

There would be overtaking because what everyone has missed in this thread so far is the biggest factor in overtaking and that's what drives the driver to push himself that little bit harder to get that extra point or place. Sure it's difficult but if it were easy we would all be able to predict with some certainty the outcome of a race and that's not so easy to do atm.

[maure 1]

Won't improve much. The turbulence parades like Monaco 2007, Hungary 2007, Turkey 2007, Malaysia 2008 prove that. This turbulent aero has got to go.

Elimination of restrictions would improve things dramatically and would distance teams in terms of performance. Reversing the grid ensures overtakings and more so if drivers know they cannot count of pitstops.

[Argento Reloaded 1]

Want overtakes? Change the rules for the cars: wider chassis, wider copckit, return of the slicks, plain underbody between axles, new dimension/position of the front and rear wings, no winglets, etc. and you get very differents cars capable of overtaking.

[Rainmaster 7]

Reversing grids is not in the nature of F1, and is a poor solution. Eliminating pit stops isn't a bad idea though....

In my opinion of course.