Turkey

[Silver_Arrows 0]

Yes but also the difference in team orders matters too. I mean, Alonso and Hamilton were surely handicapped more by the power struggles within their team than almost any other WDC contenders in recent years. Plus the margin at the end was so small that the team orders take on even greater significance.

Yes, that is also a factor I will agree with that. Sure, the difference in team orders may have helped Michael a lot, but I believe Michael was still good enough to win a title without them. However if Ferrari hadn\'t used team orders then Raikkonen simply wouldn\'t have been champion, which brings Brad\'s \"Kimi is whiter than white\" ranting into perspective a bit. I am not saying that he didn\'t deserve to win, he was better than Massa over the course of the season, I am just trying to put it into perspective that team orders almost always come into play at some point, and that Kimi wasn\'t some other worldly driver that didn\'t need the occasional bit of help from his team, which is an obvious fact if you look into what happened in Brazil and Japan. Would Ferrari admit it? absolutely not. Does that mean we are imagining it... Again, absolutely not. Ferrari where fully justified in doing so, I just feel Raikkonen\'s fans need to stop bashing Alonso and take things for what they really are.

McLaren not using team orders may well have been their downfall, but it is not normally a problem, with the exception of the Prost/Senna scenario, it is very rare to get 2 guys in a team that are so very close on outright in ultimate performance as Alonso and Lewis where. Sure, their lack of team orders may well have cost them in the end, but the problem that McLaren faced was that both of their drivers stood a mathematical chance of winning, and they had the \"fair play tsar\" preventing them from manipulating the result. Ferrari faced no such problem, and where able to use team orders to their advantage. The other problem McLaren faced was that both of their drivers where competitive all the way through the season, whereas Massa began to fall away from Kimi making life easier for Ferrari. Personally I feel that had McLaren manipulated the title to suit one of their drivers, I feel they would have indeed won the title, but I would also feel that it would have been unmerited, as the end result showed us how close Alonso and Lewis really where.

[freaky2 1]

Yes, that is also a factor I will agree with that. Sure, the difference in team orders may have helped Michael a lot, but I believe Michael was still good enough to win a title without them. However if Ferrari hadn\'t used team orders then Raikkonen simply wouldn\'t have been champion, which brings Brad\'s \"Kimi is whiter than white\" ranting into perspective a bit. I am not saying that he didn\'t deserve to win, he was better than Massa over the course of the season, I am just trying to put it into perspective that team orders almost always come into play at some point, and that Kimi wasn\'t some other worldly driver that didn\'t need the occasional bit of help from his team, which is an obvious fact if you look into what happened in Brazil and Japan. Would Ferrari admit it? absolutely not. Does that mean we are imagining it... Again, absolutely not. Ferrari where fully justified in doing so, I just feel Raikkonen\'s fans need to stop bashing Alonso and take things for what they really are.

McLaren not using team orders may well have been their downfall, but it is not normally a problem, with the exception of the Prost/Senna scenario, it is very rare to get 2 guys in a team that are so very close on outright in ultimate performance as Alonso and Lewis where. Sure, their lack of team orders may well have cost them in the end, but the problem that McLaren faced was that both of their drivers stood a mathematical chance of winning, and they had the \"fair play tsar\" preventing them from manipulating the result. Ferrari faced no such problem, and where able to use team orders to their advantage. The other problem McLaren faced was that both of their drivers where competitive all the way through the season, whereas Massa began to fall away from Kimi making life easier for Ferrari. Personally I feel that had McLaren manipulated the title to suit one of their drivers, I feel they would have indeed won the title, but I would also feel that it would have been unmerited, as the end result showed us how close Alonso and Lewis really where.

Can I just say that I am a Kimi fan and have nothing against Alonso? Brad's opinion doesn't mean that all Kimi fans think like him. And overall I agree with your post, and I also have to say that even though it was obvious that Massa helped Kimi it was more than justified after his falling out of the game. Massa couldn't have done anything better (I think). And Kimi will probably always remember that he owes Massa for his first WDC.

[Silver_Arrows 0]

Sure, I can appreciate that not all of kimis fans are like that, there just seems to be a high concentration of them on this board. As I stated in my post, I can fully sympathise with Ferrari for doing what they did in Brazil, it would be non sensical to let Massa win and stop his teammate from taking the title I was merely stating that some of the more \"left wing\" (for lack of a better phrase) Raikkonen fans just need to accept that he is not some ungodly person that is totally impervious to team orders. Sorry if I offended you, I wasn\'t aiming to generalise

[BradSpeedMan 6]

.

[BradSpeedMan 6]

Yes, that is also a factor I will agree with that. Sure, the difference in team orders may have helped Michael a lot, but I believe Michael was still good enough to win a title without them. However if Ferrari hadn\'t used team orders then Raikkonen simply wouldn\'t have been champion, which brings Brad\'s \"Kimi is whiter than white\" ranting into perspective a bit. I am not saying that he didn\'t deserve to win, he was better than Massa over the course of the season, I am just trying to put it into perspective that team orders almost always come into play at some point, and that Kimi wasn\'t some other worldly driver that didn\'t need the occasional bit of help from his team, which is an obvious fact if you look into what happened in Brazil and Japan. Would Ferrari admit it? absolutely not. Does that mean we are imagining it... Again, absolutely not. Ferrari where fully justified in doing so, I just feel Raikkonen\'s fans need to stop bashing Alonso and take things for what they really are.

McLaren not using team orders may well have been their downfall, but it is not normally a problem, with the exception of the Prost/Senna scenario, it is very rare to get 2 guys in a team that are so very close on outright in ultimate performance as Alonso and Lewis where. Sure, their lack of team orders may well have cost them in the end, but the problem that McLaren faced was that both of their drivers stood a mathematical chance of winning, and they had the \"fair play tsar\" preventing them from manipulating the result. Ferrari faced no such problem, and where able to use team orders to their advantage. The other problem McLaren faced was that both of their drivers where competitive all the way through the season, whereas Massa began to fall away from Kimi making life easier for Ferrari. Personally I feel that had McLaren manipulated the title to suit one of their drivers, I feel they would have indeed won the title, but I would also feel that it would have been unmerited, as the end result showed us how close Alonso and Lewis really where.

I think Micheal might have been good enough winning the title on his own but how many times do you think he would've done it. Herein lies my point. What happened in Brazil and Japan, is , as you've noted and I don't know why you're actually ranting, is inevitably a consequence of team orders after one driver did'nt make the flippin cut!!!!!!!!!!!!. BUT both drivers have been giving a chance at it....BOTH MASSA AND KIMI, even this year Massa still believes he can win the title. This will hurt Kimi significantly again as Massa takes points away from him. There is a BIG differrence between how Micheal and Alonso won their titles, as a consequence of their teams fully backing ONE DRIVER right from the start.

Kimi represents the perfect example of skill over application as a success, almost the way Senna did.... he makes things look easier without even seemingly trying

Next time, don't make my come off my high clouds for nothing...

[pabloh20 1]

I think Micheal might have been good enough winning the title on his own but how many times do you think he would've done it. Herein lies my point. What happened in Brazil and Japan, is , as you've noted and I don't know why you're actually ranting, is inevitably a consequence of team orders after one driver did'nt make the flippin cut!!!!!!!!!!!!. BUT both drivers have been giving a chance at it....BOTH MASSA AND KIMI, even this year Massa still believes he can win the title. This will hurt Kimi significantly again as Massa takes points away from him. There is a BIG differrence between how Micheal and Alonso won their titles, as a consequence of their teams fully backing ONE DRIVER right from the start.

Kimi represents the perfect example of skill over application as a success, almost the way Senna did.... he makes things look easier without even seemingly trying

Next time, don't make my come off my high clouds for nothing...

See, that's where I have to disagree, Brad, especially in the case of Schumi. I suspect Alonso was in the same situation too, though.

I guess the first question I would ask is why would you think that Ferrari suddenly in 2007, after so many years, changed strategy with regards to backing drivers from the start? And herein lies the problem, for me. A leopard doesn't change it's spots, as they say. I think Ferrari employed the same strategy in 2007 as they have always done, namely their drivers are allowed to race until there is a clear favourite.

[BradSpeedMan 6]

See, that's where I have to disagree, Brad, especially in the case of Schumi. I suspect Alonso was in the same situation too, though.

I guess the first question I would ask is why would you think that Ferrari suddenly in 2007, after so many years, changed strategy with regards to backing drivers from the start? And herein lies the problem, for me. A leopard doesn't change it's spots, as they say. I think Ferrari employed the same strategy in 2007 as they have always done, namely their drivers are allowed to race until there is a clear favourite.

Are you serious?

You are actually suggesting that Micheal did'nt bring his team from Bennetton, the winning combo, to actually let his teammates take over and win. That you discard everything previous teammates like Irvine and Rubens and Massa has said about letting Micheal thru as hearsay...

You mean I have to look up all these articles up again to provide evidence????? damnit!!

[pabloh20 1]

Are you serious?

Indeed.

[BradSpeedMan 6]

Indeed.

We'll come back to this...Give me some time

[pabloh20 1]

We'll come back to this...Give me some time

It's ok, Brad, I am well aware it's not a popular belief, but it's my belief. It's like you trying to pretend that Kimi is as good as Schumi

[BradSpeedMan 6]

It's ok, Brad, I am well aware it's not a popular belief, but it's my belief. It's like you trying to pretend that Kimi is as good as Schumi

no Pabloh.... I'm going to dig every nuance, every breath, every strange look, every particle, every statement Briatore has said about team orders and kill off this countertheory once and for all...

now I'm really serious...

[pabloh20 1]

no Pabloh.... I'm going to dig every nuance, every breath, every strange look, every particle, every statement Briatore has said about team orders and kill off this countertheory once and for all...

now I'm really serious...

Would these be all the quotes that came out after Schumi dumped him for Todt?

On the same subject, why would I trust anything old cheating sweaty arms says about anything??

[BradSpeedMan 6]

Would these be all the quotes that came out after Schumi dumped him for Todt?

On the same subject, why would I trust anything old cheating sweaty arms says about anything??

Paul, it saddens me that a good guy like you believe the no team orders thingiemage, it really bothers me that you are sadly misled...

My new mission in life is now to turn my good friend (you) back from the dark side....every mag must be read, every fact dug up...

hang in there Paul, hang in there

[pabloh20 1]

Paul, it saddens me that a good guy like you believe the no team orders thingiemage, it really bothers me that you are sadly misled...

My new mission in life is now to turn my good friend (you) back from the dark side....every mag must be read, every fact dug up...

hang in there Paul, hang in there

Indeed. I am a hopeless case.

However, if Kimi pulls out a good lead over Massa in the championship, as I expect him to, then I will remind you of this thread and 'clear favourite'

Of course, I shall also remind you that team orders were banned after 2002 and resent the implication that teams may be.................................<pause for shock horror expression>.....................................CHEATING!

[BradSpeedMan 6]

Of course, I shall also remind you that team orders were banned after 2002 and resent the implication that teams may be.................................<pause for shock horror expression>.....................................CHEATING!

Oh yes, almost forgot tht one...

[Silver_Arrows 0]

Kimi represents the perfect example of skill over application as a success, almost the way Senna did.... he makes things look easier without even seemingly trying

That one particularly made me laugh. Kimi isn\'t even close to being on Senna\'s level. Also, Alonso didn\'t have the benifit of team orders, he just had the benifit of a team mate who wasn\'t even close to being a match for him. If you put a person onto a pedestal on which they clearly don\'t belong then you should expect to have your opinions challenged. You slag off Alonso a fair bit, yet you expect your own assertions about raikkonen to be unchallenged. Amusing

[pabloh20 1]

That one particularly made me laugh. Kimi isn\'t even close to being on Senna\'s level. Also, Alonso didn\'t have the benifit of team orders, he just had the benifit of a team mate who wasn\'t even close to being a match for him. If you put a person onto a pedestal on which they clearly don\'t belong then you should expect to have your opinions challenged. You slag off Alonso a fair bit, yet you expect your own assertions about raikkonen to be unchallenged. Amusing

What you are witnessing is the backlash of a Kimi fan who has had to endure many criticisms of Kimi, mainly, not exclusively, but mainly because he had never won a WDC.

Actually, Brad wasn't a Kimi fan until he moved to Ferrari, so he swapped allegiances as he thought he had a good chance of supporting a WDC for a change

[BradSpeedMan 6]

That one particularly made me laugh. Kimi isn\'t even close to being on Senna\'s level. Also, Alonso didn\'t have the benifit of team orders, he just had the benifit of a team mate who wasn\'t even close to being a match for him. If you put a person onto a pedestal on which they clearly don\'t belong then you should expect to have your opinions challenged. You slag off Alonso a fair bit, yet you expect your own assertions about raikkonen to be unchallenged. Amusing

I\now\understand\where\you\are\coming\from,\this\particular\point\demonstrates\just\that. You're\F1\knowledge\is\abit\limited\it\shows\in\your\postings\.I\recommend\reading\more\on\the\subject\matter.

No\use\coming\down\from\the\high\clouds \again

[cavallino 2]

Maybe you did'nt follow F1 last year, so I'll give you the benefit of the doubt and recap for you.... yes, it might have been true Massa yielded the last race, after he had absolutely no chance of winning the championship. During Schumie's reign teammates were ordered to yield not being allowed to fight for the championships themselves ( i think the majority F1 followers will agree to this)... I mean, I can't believe you don't get it

Name one championship MS wouldn't have won if it wasn't for team orders.

Kimi had a bad start to last year, memories aer short unfortunately, he was damn lucky to win the title, of course, Lewis had a bad lasdt part of the season so it all balances out,you can argue that KR was the driver of the season by an inch, but that's about it.

Massa is being written off far too early.

[Autumnpuma 0]

I\now\understand\where\you\are\coming\from,\this\particular\point\demonstrates\just\that. You're\F1\knowledge\is\abit\limited\it\shows\in\your\postings\.I\recommend\reading\more\on\the\subject\matter.

No\use\coming\down\from\the\high\clouds \again

Nice.

Name one championship MS wouldn't have won if it wasn't for team orders.

Kimi had a bad start to last year, memories aer short unfortunately, he was damn lucky to win the title, of course, Lewis had a bad lasdt part of the season so it all balances out,you can argue that KR was the driver of the season by an inch, but that's about it.

Massa is being written off far too early.

At the risk of sounding Senna-esque.....Indeed.

[Max Mosley 2]

^ Everything that man said.

[cavallino 2]

Kimi winning the title was convenient. He isn't MS, so he doesn't yet have a dedicated hate club in the English language F1 media. And it got rid of the problem of MClaren winning the title, because after their confession, even die hard Mclaren apologists like Matt Bishop or Martin Brundle couldn't really cheer a Mclaren title, knowing the frightening travesty that would have been. It is a travesty enough that they're still racing. But of course, that's irrelevant, we're more concerned with what Max Mosley's sexual preferences.

[Jean Todt 4]

Kimi winning the title was convenient. He isn't MS, so he doesn't yet have a dedicated hate club in the English language F1 media. And it got rid of the problem of MClaren winning the title, because after their confession, even die hard Mclaren apologists like Matt Bishop or Martin Brundle couldn't really cheer a Mclaren title, knowing the frightening travesty that would have been. It is a travesty enough that they're still racing. But of course, that's irrelevant, we're more concerned with what Max Mosley's sexual preferences.

[BradSpeedMan 6]

Name one championship MS wouldn't have won if it wasn't for team orders.

Kimi had a bad start to last year, memories aer short unfortunately, he was damn lucky to win the title, of course, Lewis had a bad lasdt part of the season so it all balances out,you can argue that KR was the driver of the season by an inch, but that's about it.

Massa is being written off far too early.

I must admit I'm pretty impressed with Massa, after what he went thru the first 2 races. Yes, it's way too early, we'll have to see if he can keep the precision up there during the full season....

[dribbler 6]

Hey Brad, any intention of responding to my post (73)?