"pumpdoc", you're right: You have stirred up a hornets' nest. Motor sports can be stunning, jaw-droppingly beautiful some times... and, of course, it can be ugly, cruel and without pity. I am glad to see the degree of passion stirred in many of you over the weekend incidents in Hungary and, looking backward, the sad death of Henry Surtees. I want to believe that Ross Brawn has the intelligence and professionalism to run his team correctly and above board. If there needs to be further technical investigation for future safety concerns there should be no hesitation to having this done. Put this time between now and Valencia to good purpose. As for Renault, if they knowingly sent Alonso out with an unsecured wheel and wheel spat they need to receive some form of punishment, although punishing the drivers from competing in the next race is unfair. We can only wish Massa a full recovery and, regardless of what he can or cannot do for remainder of the 2009 season, hope that he is fully capable of enjoying the birth of his first child later in the year.
1
Brawns Should Be Parked
Started by
pumpdoc
, Jul 25 2009 11:21 PM
45 replies to this topic
#31
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Posted 27 July 2009 - 07:11 PM
P. #32
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Posted 27 July 2009 - 08:20 PM
Them humans think too much.
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Music connects people through the unspoken appreciation of something that sounds right. Something that taps into the deepest corners of your soul, making you feel alive. When someone else gets it too and you know they do, it feels beautiful.
"To be brutal and honest I don't have a thin skin and others who whine over every little thing will not curry favour. I'm just going to try to keep this place fun, as it has been for all of these years." Pumpdoc, 8th Decemeber 2010.
Music connects people through the unspoken appreciation of something that sounds right. Something that taps into the deepest corners of your soul, making you feel alive. When someone else gets it too and you know they do, it feels beautiful.
"To be brutal and honest I don't have a thin skin and others who whine over every little thing will not curry favour. I'm just going to try to keep this place fun, as it has been for all of these years." Pumpdoc, 8th Decemeber 2010.
#33
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Posted 27 July 2009 - 11:17 PM
I think Meds original post summed it up very accurately indeed.
There is no way to prevent or foresee freak accidents like the two recent ones we have seen with Massa and Surtees - that is why they are described as freak accidents; a combination of circumstances leading to a highly unlikely outcome. That is what we can reasonably conclude those accidents were, there is no evidence yet to suggest otherwise.
I do think it would be prudent to have an investigation into the Brawn car, to see if the failure was a result of an overstressed part which could fail again (i.e. a design fault). However even if that was the case (unlikely in the extreme), the failure of a part through a poor design still wouldn't amount to negligence on the part of the Brawn team unless the part was so badly designed that it was very likely to break, which is highly unlikely considering Button's car had no such issues. Of course, such an investigation would also require that every time a part broke on a car which could leave debris on the track or injure someone, there should also be an investigation too - although nobody ever makes a knee jerk argument for that because every action needs an equal and opposite reaction, e.g. Kimi's flailing exhaust never fell off and killed someone, so nobody ever deemed Kimi a murderer and Ferrari and the FIA grossly negligent for not calling him in. But it could have happened, think about it.
In the Brawn/Massa case, the most likely explanation is that it was a manufacturing error, these things happen and you can never ensure that every part that leaves a factory is 100% reliable. As long as Brawn have a high standard of checks performed on each part they design and manufacture in their factory (which they clearly do considering how few failures they've had this year), that isn't negligence either, just the nature of manufacturing that every now and then you will get something which passes through the net. In this case that part did get through the net, did actually fail during qualifying at high speed, and did manage to hit another driver in the head. If not for that combination of unfortunate circumstance, this post would not exist, think about that too.
In my opinion no amount of testing, quality assurance or whatever will ever be able to make accidents like that impossible or minor in their consequences. That's not to say we shouldn't continually strive to make our sport safer, but we must accept that driving cars around at 200mph will never be inherently a "safe" thing to do. We have to take comfort that these sorts of accidents very rarely happen and that is the result of the work done by the FIA under Max Mosley's governance and the various safety initiatives in motorsport. We should be thankful for that and put these accidents into perspective instead of making knee jerk reactions. Think of the many millions of times such accidents could have happened and didn't, largely due to the safety developments of recent years.
If the Brawn cars pass the safety checks by the FIA before the race then that is all that can be asked of the Brawn team: to design a car that meets the criteria for scrutineering and the various safety checks the FIA perform. That is, of course, unless you believe the FIA's safety checks are not thorough enough; but there is no way for the FIA to actually check the car when it is under hard braking/cornering/acceleration directly before each race (and even if they could, such accidents are still unpredictable events). I am also sure that under Ross Brawn's professional watch the Brawn team would do everything in their power to ensure that their car was checked by their own mechanics and deemed as safe as can be reasonably expected; anybody who suggested otherwise would be talking rubbish imo.
So my opinion is that investigations and research should be done into this type of accident, but I think it is one circumstance which you cannot ever plan for or protect against. As is often the case, Kimi Raikkonen said it best:
I finish my post with news that Massa could make a full recovery, found here.
There is no way to prevent or foresee freak accidents like the two recent ones we have seen with Massa and Surtees - that is why they are described as freak accidents; a combination of circumstances leading to a highly unlikely outcome. That is what we can reasonably conclude those accidents were, there is no evidence yet to suggest otherwise.
I do think it would be prudent to have an investigation into the Brawn car, to see if the failure was a result of an overstressed part which could fail again (i.e. a design fault). However even if that was the case (unlikely in the extreme), the failure of a part through a poor design still wouldn't amount to negligence on the part of the Brawn team unless the part was so badly designed that it was very likely to break, which is highly unlikely considering Button's car had no such issues. Of course, such an investigation would also require that every time a part broke on a car which could leave debris on the track or injure someone, there should also be an investigation too - although nobody ever makes a knee jerk argument for that because every action needs an equal and opposite reaction, e.g. Kimi's flailing exhaust never fell off and killed someone, so nobody ever deemed Kimi a murderer and Ferrari and the FIA grossly negligent for not calling him in. But it could have happened, think about it.
In the Brawn/Massa case, the most likely explanation is that it was a manufacturing error, these things happen and you can never ensure that every part that leaves a factory is 100% reliable. As long as Brawn have a high standard of checks performed on each part they design and manufacture in their factory (which they clearly do considering how few failures they've had this year), that isn't negligence either, just the nature of manufacturing that every now and then you will get something which passes through the net. In this case that part did get through the net, did actually fail during qualifying at high speed, and did manage to hit another driver in the head. If not for that combination of unfortunate circumstance, this post would not exist, think about that too.
In my opinion no amount of testing, quality assurance or whatever will ever be able to make accidents like that impossible or minor in their consequences. That's not to say we shouldn't continually strive to make our sport safer, but we must accept that driving cars around at 200mph will never be inherently a "safe" thing to do. We have to take comfort that these sorts of accidents very rarely happen and that is the result of the work done by the FIA under Max Mosley's governance and the various safety initiatives in motorsport. We should be thankful for that and put these accidents into perspective instead of making knee jerk reactions. Think of the many millions of times such accidents could have happened and didn't, largely due to the safety developments of recent years.
If the Brawn cars pass the safety checks by the FIA before the race then that is all that can be asked of the Brawn team: to design a car that meets the criteria for scrutineering and the various safety checks the FIA perform. That is, of course, unless you believe the FIA's safety checks are not thorough enough; but there is no way for the FIA to actually check the car when it is under hard braking/cornering/acceleration directly before each race (and even if they could, such accidents are still unpredictable events). I am also sure that under Ross Brawn's professional watch the Brawn team would do everything in their power to ensure that their car was checked by their own mechanics and deemed as safe as can be reasonably expected; anybody who suggested otherwise would be talking rubbish imo.
So my opinion is that investigations and research should be done into this type of accident, but I think it is one circumstance which you cannot ever plan for or protect against. As is often the case, Kimi Raikkonen said it best:
Quote
"It is just an unlucky situation what happened today," he said. "It could have happened two years ago, or it could happen five years ago. "The cars have an open c#ckpit so there is always the chance that something can hit it. It is not the first time that someone has been hit and unfortunately sometimes drivers get very badly hurt or die. It is part of the risk in motor racing. For sure Felipe was very unlucky today and hopefully will be okay, but you cannot get rid of that issue.
"You would need to make a rule for a bullet proof window in front of you to get rid of that issue. It is just unfortunate that these things happen sometimes."
"You would need to make a rule for a bullet proof window in front of you to get rid of that issue. It is just unfortunate that these things happen sometimes."
I finish my post with news that Massa could make a full recovery, found here.
Never stay up on the barren heights of cleverness, but come down into the green valleys of silliness ~ Ludwig Wittgenstein
#34
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Posted 03 August 2009 - 08:01 AM
pumpdoc, on 25 July 2009 - 11:21 PM, said:
After losing a spring without crashing and after Massa ran into with his head such spring, I believe the Brawns should be parked untill an investigation is done to determine why a masjor part "fell" off of Rubens car.
Parked????? Are you serious?
A lifetime ban in all forms would be more appropriate. Jail for Ross for attempted Manslaughter through insufficient safety standards amounting to culpable homicide esp considering there was no trigger such as an accident..
How can a part "fall off"????
Jesus! just imagine that thing coming at your head at 275 km/hr plus
fecking frightening.
FIA were quick to ban Alonsos car for a loose nut - what do we do about a loose killer spring (even if it hadn't hit Massa, it was still dangerous)
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#35
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Posted 03 August 2009 - 08:02 AM
Persevere, on 27 July 2009 - 07:11 PM, said:
"pumpdoc", you're right: You have stirred up a hornets' nest. Motor sports can be stunning, jaw-droppingly beautiful some times... and, of course, it can be ugly, cruel and without pity. I am glad to see the degree of passion stirred in many of you over the weekend incidents in Hungary and, looking backward, the sad death of Henry Surtees. I want to believe that Ross Brawn has the intelligence and professionalism to run his team correctly and above board. If there needs to be further technical investigation for future safety concerns there should be no hesitation to having this done. Put this time between now and Valencia to good purpose. As for Renault, if they knowingly sent Alonso out with an unsecured wheel and wheel spat they need to receive some form of punishment, although punishing the drivers from competing in the next race is unfair. We can only wish Massa a full recovery and, regardless of what he can or cannot do for remainder of the 2009 season, hope that he is fully capable of enjoying the birth of his first child later in the year.
Hmmmmmmmmm - a US based F1 fan - a rare species
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#36
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Posted 03 August 2009 - 08:06 AM
medilloni, on 26 July 2009 - 09:56 AM, said:
I suppose
You forgot the part where you were supposed to blame Massa for driving into the spring.............
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#37
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Posted 03 August 2009 - 09:06 AM
Of course, under ordinary traffic law Massa would be blamed. He did "adjust his driving to the conditions of the road" 
#38
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Posted 03 August 2009 - 10:36 AM
mock, on 03 August 2009 - 08:06 AM, said:
You forgot the part where you were supposed to blame Massa for driving into the spring.............
I forgot to say feckkwits appear like flies on sh1t every time their's a serious accident caused by one of millions of possibilities of (inevitable) human failure.
Quote
Parked????? Are you serious?
A lifetime ban in all forms would be more appropriate. Jail for Ross for attempted Manslaughter through insufficient safety standards amounting to culpable homicide esp considering there was no trigger such as an accident..
How can a part "fall off"????
Jesus! just imagine that thing coming at your head at 275 km/hr plus
fecking frightening.
FIA were quick to ban Alonsos car for a loose nut - what do we do about a loose killer spring (even if it hadn't hit Massa, it was still dangerous)
A lifetime ban in all forms would be more appropriate. Jail for Ross for attempted Manslaughter through insufficient safety standards amounting to culpable homicide esp considering there was no trigger such as an accident..
How can a part "fall off"????
Jesus! just imagine that thing coming at your head at 275 km/hr plus
fecking frightening.
FIA were quick to ban Alonsos car for a loose nut - what do we do about a loose killer spring (even if it hadn't hit Massa, it was still dangerous)
But then... I feel strangely attracted to your well thought out logical, rational, and viable points you got there.
"Avoiding problems you need to face, is avoiding the life you need to live."
"...when I was a child I caught a fleeting glimpse... I turned to look but it was gone, I cannot put my finger on it now. The child is grown. The dream is gone..."
"...when I was a child I caught a fleeting glimpse... I turned to look but it was gone, I cannot put my finger on it now. The child is grown. The dream is gone..."
#39
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Posted 03 August 2009 - 11:13 AM
medilloni, on 03 August 2009 - 10:36 AM, said:
I forgot to say feckkwits appear like flies on sh1t every time their's a serious accident caused by one of millions of possibilities of (inevitable) human failure.
But then... I feel strangely attracted to your well thought out logical, rational, and viable points you got there.
But then... I feel strangely attracted to your well thought out logical, rational, and viable points you got there.
Nice to see you again though after a long time, even if you did miss the humour
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#40
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Posted 03 August 2009 - 11:40 AM
mock, on 03 August 2009 - 11:13 AM, said:
Nice to see you again though after a long time, even if you did miss the humour
On the contrary Mock, our humour passed like ships in the night!
Nice to see you again too, where've you been?On a serious note though, and more for Pumpdock I suppose, the kind of accident with Henry and Philipe suffered with... surely there must have been similar things happen in US open wheel racing (CART etc)? If so, what happened? What steps were taken to prevent it again?
Edited by medilloni, 03 August 2009 - 11:40 AM.
"Avoiding problems you need to face, is avoiding the life you need to live."
"...when I was a child I caught a fleeting glimpse... I turned to look but it was gone, I cannot put my finger on it now. The child is grown. The dream is gone..."
"...when I was a child I caught a fleeting glimpse... I turned to look but it was gone, I cannot put my finger on it now. The child is grown. The dream is gone..."
#41
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Posted 03 August 2009 - 12:11 PM
medilloni, on 03 August 2009 - 11:40 AM, said:
What steps were taken to prevent it again?
"There is more stupidity than hydrogen in the Universe, and it has a longer shelf life" - Frank Zappa
"Great drivers are the ones who win the races they're not supposed to" - K.Chandhok
"On the rare occasions that I play a racing game I often think ‘you know what this needs? A boss battle or two.’ A Formula One game in which, suddenly, everybody else has a monster truck and their sole desire is to squash you. A street racing game with a tank or two blowing the roads and buildings to bits. A Nascar game with a track that occasionally bends to the right" (Adam Smith - RPS)
"Great drivers are the ones who win the races they're not supposed to" - K.Chandhok
"On the rare occasions that I play a racing game I often think ‘you know what this needs? A boss battle or two.’ A Formula One game in which, suddenly, everybody else has a monster truck and their sole desire is to squash you. A street racing game with a tank or two blowing the roads and buildings to bits. A Nascar game with a track that occasionally bends to the right" (Adam Smith - RPS)
#42
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Posted 03 August 2009 - 12:16 PM
Quiet One, on 03 August 2009 - 12:11 PM, said:
Invade some foreign country?
ROTFFLMFAO
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#43
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Posted 03 August 2009 - 01:14 PM
Quiet One, on 03 August 2009 - 12:11 PM, said:
Invade some foreign country?
Of course, Felipinho had massive destruction weapons in his Fezza!!!!!
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#44
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Posted 03 August 2009 - 01:30 PM
medilloni, on 03 August 2009 - 11:40 AM, said:
On the contrary Mock, our humour passed like ships in the night! Nice to see you again too, where've you been?
On a serious note though, and more for Pumpdock I suppose, the kind of accident with Henry and Philipe suffered with... surely there must have been similar things happen in US open wheel racing (CART etc)? If so, what happened? What steps were taken to prevent it again?
Nice to see you again too, where've you been?On a serious note though, and more for Pumpdock I suppose, the kind of accident with Henry and Philipe suffered with... surely there must have been similar things happen in US open wheel racing (CART etc)? If so, what happened? What steps were taken to prevent it again?
Things happen like this all of the time.
I'll clairify once again, by "parked" I ment till an inspection was done on the cars to make sure there was not a defect.
As you say stuff falls off of cars all the time from either race damage or parts breaking, that's racing.
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#45
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Posted 03 August 2009 - 01:47 PM
pumpdoc, on 03 August 2009 - 01:30 PM, said:
Things happen like this all of the time.
I'll clairify once again, by "parked" I ment till an inspection was done on the cars to make sure there was not a defect.
As you say stuff falls off of cars all the time from either race damage or parts breaking, that's racing.
I'll clairify once again, by "parked" I ment till an inspection was done on the cars to make sure there was not a defect.
As you say stuff falls off of cars all the time from either race damage or parts breaking, that's racing.
Sorry Bruce, didn't mean it to sound like a 'go'. I was getting at the fact that there might be something we could learn from the constant high speed oval stuff and the chances of bits falling off, and what the procedure is - but I worded it like a twat
As others have said, I'm sure BrawnGP will be checking to see why the part failed, but I found it spooky that just before this happened, their website ran a feature on the testing of parts (NDT), you need to login to the site, so I'm not sure if it's OK for me to copy n paste some of the article (admin please bin it if so)....
"...NDT tests are done both before and after the component is used and can be the tests are designed to improve safety, reliability and performance....", and "... If a crack or hairline fracture is found, the results are reported back to the team’s designers so that the reasons for the failure can be determined. Each part is pushed as close to the limit as possible during the testing process without causing damage. We use five main methods of NDT which are determined by a number of factors including the type of material and function of the component."
...all standard stuff, but I bet they are working their arse off now!
"Avoiding problems you need to face, is avoiding the life you need to live."
"...when I was a child I caught a fleeting glimpse... I turned to look but it was gone, I cannot put my finger on it now. The child is grown. The dream is gone..."
"...when I was a child I caught a fleeting glimpse... I turned to look but it was gone, I cannot put my finger on it now. The child is grown. The dream is gone..."
#46
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Posted 04 August 2009 - 06:47 AM
medilloni, on 03 August 2009 - 01:47 PM, said:
Sorry Bruce, didn't mean it to sound like a 'go'. I was getting at the fact that there might be something we could learn from the constant high speed oval stuff and the chances of bits falling off, and what the procedure is - but I worded it like a twat
As others have said, I'm sure BrawnGP will be checking to see why the part failed, but I found it spooky that just before this happened, their website ran a feature on the testing of parts (NDT), you need to login to the site, so I'm not sure if it's OK for me to copy n paste some of the article (admin please bin it if so)....
"...NDT tests are done both before and after the component is used and can be the tests are designed to improve safety, reliability and performance....", and "... If a crack or hairline fracture is found, the results are reported back to the team’s designers so that the reasons for the failure can be determined. Each part is pushed as close to the limit as possible during the testing process without causing damage. We use five main methods of NDT which are determined by a number of factors including the type of material and function of the component."
...all standard stuff, but I bet they are working their arse off now!
As others have said, I'm sure BrawnGP will be checking to see why the part failed, but I found it spooky that just before this happened, their website ran a feature on the testing of parts (NDT), you need to login to the site, so I'm not sure if it's OK for me to copy n paste some of the article (admin please bin it if so)....
"...NDT tests are done both before and after the component is used and can be the tests are designed to improve safety, reliability and performance....", and "... If a crack or hairline fracture is found, the results are reported back to the team’s designers so that the reasons for the failure can be determined. Each part is pushed as close to the limit as possible during the testing process without causing damage. We use five main methods of NDT which are determined by a number of factors including the type of material and function of the component."
...all standard stuff, but I bet they are working their arse off now!
Was the spring whole when it came off? Did it break or did it just fall off? Surely if it fell off it would imply a mechanic is to blame. If it broke, it is a faulty manufacturing process. Do we know? Shall I stop asking questions? Hmmm?
Listening to MSTRKRFT - Fist of God
Music connects people through the unspoken appreciation of something that sounds right. Something that taps into the deepest corners of your soul, making you feel alive. When someone else gets it too and you know they do, it feels beautiful.
"To be brutal and honest I don't have a thin skin and others who whine over every little thing will not curry favour. I'm just going to try to keep this place fun, as it has been for all of these years." Pumpdoc, 8th Decemeber 2010.
Music connects people through the unspoken appreciation of something that sounds right. Something that taps into the deepest corners of your soul, making you feel alive. When someone else gets it too and you know they do, it feels beautiful.
"To be brutal and honest I don't have a thin skin and others who whine over every little thing will not curry favour. I'm just going to try to keep this place fun, as it has been for all of these years." Pumpdoc, 8th Decemeber 2010.
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