503 replies to this topic

[Schumikonen]

adamstrags, on 08 October 2009 - 12:54 PM, said:

Though I understand where you're coming from, I have to pick a bone or two here.

1) don't take an F1 fan (me) for a neutral observer. I am very much a fan of F1, just not of any one driver or team. I spend more time cheering on the likes of Sutil, Grosjean than any of the leading drivers, but yet support no one driver full time.

2) The idea that someone like me might not enjoy a race as much as a driver / team fan is a completely subjective and somewhat pompous / unjustifiable opinion. I could claim that I'm able to enjoy it far more since every race is fun rather than just those where my driver does well - but I wouldn't make that claim, since it would be entirely pompous and unjustifiable.

3) People who support one driver very rarely support someone without a chance of winning. Think about why that is...
there's you answer - vicarious gloating. Doesn't say much for your motives now does it.

But to be more philosophical and less confrontational...

This is why I do understand what you're saying...

It is often the dillusion of the partisan footy fan (me) that because they invest more emotionally in their team's fortunes (for the last 30 years), they have more right to enjoy their victories and so assume that they do. I took my missis to her first premier league game when we visited the UK this summer and was amazed to see how much she completely loved the whole experience - more so than me. I was busy worrying until the final whistle, while she was chanting and screaming every oportunity at both ends. First I thought it a bit cheeky, but then I realised that she had just as much ability to enjoy the experience as me, because she was enjoying a quite different experience - one that she could get at any ground - one that she had every right to enjoy even had my team lost. I, on the other hand, could only enjoy my own experience by supporting my team.

I confess - I am a tech head. I love the cars, the design, the kinetic poetry that is a GP on the finest of tracks - for that I need nothing but quality drivers driving quality (and preferably less restricted) cars. I have enjoyed F1 for that very same reason since I was about 5 and Senna was battling Prost. One of my favourite ever races was when Olivier Panis won Monaco - I was on cloud nine for the next week.

So you see, it is not that you or I enjoy F1 more. We are enjoying completely different experiences. Apples and oranges. I can't enjoy the rapture that comes when your driver wins as you can. You can't enjoy the beauty of anyone winning with a stunning drive as a non-partisan can.

Probably you have developed that ability but in my personal experience I can tell you that I enjoy more a race/sport when I have a favorite driver/team and that doesn't stop me from enjoying what the rest are doing, I just post how much I enjoyed the Alonso/Webber battle in Bahrein 2004 and I really enjoy watching Hamilton doing things that you are not expecting specially in the wet but at least in my case, I need to have a favorite driver to get the most out of the race and I also need Alonso to loose in case my driver is out of the race.

[JHS]

BradSpeedMan, on 08 October 2009 - 10:58 AM, said:

chaos, I can't wait to the the bugger-up next year at ferrari

You'll be waiting a long time then, because that won't happen I'm afraid.

[BradSpeedMan]

Schumikonen, on 08 October 2009 - 12:20 PM, said:

I am just waiting on Kimi's decision to get a clearer picture of what could happen next year and yes you are right about Alonso, he just had a fast team-mate once let's see how he will deal with this specially if he doesn't start winning and gets beaten by Massa from the start.

Alonso actually had 2 fast teammates. Trulli was one of them. Unfortunately he disobeyed orders(his spat with Renault was well-kown) and he got fired. If you ask me, they simply did'nt like him being faster.

[Jean Todt]

BradSpeedMan, on 08 October 2009 - 03:04 PM, said:

Alonso actually had 2 fast teammates. Trulli was one of them. Unfortunately he disobeyed orders(his spat with Renault was well-kown) and he got fired. If you ask me, they simply did'nt like him being faster.

Ya...I forgot that, thanks for reminding me...this will be one history with which I will use to p**s off Andres and Alehop.

[Schumikonen]

abbas_gear, on 08 October 2009 - 03:15 PM, said:

Ya...I forgot that, thanks for reminding me...this will be one history with which I will use to p**s off Andres and Alehop.

I forgot that one too but it is a very handy piece of information for our purpose  

[stopkidding]

BradSpeedMan, on 08 October 2009 - 10:50 AM, said:

uhm yeah well..sortoff... you're basically anti-Alonso, at the cost of a team you admired. Do realise it's your ex fav driver MS who has whispered into Domenicalli's ear about driver selection, in my view he has influenced the decision greatly, so much he has embarrassed my fav driver.

Justice must prevail, somehow, someway, and it would mean a great deal if what you mention above becomes true....

Nope! I am not anti Alonso either. I do think he is among the top F1 drivers, if not the best. I have just decided that next year, I will support Kimi and his team over any other driver and team. I always admired Kimi's attitude and speed since his Mclaren days. He became my No.1 F1 driver when he joined Ferrari. So until I chose another F1 driver over Kimi, he will get all my support! Fans can be very fickle! :-P

Another a related note, how about this rumour? Kimi to Redbull?
http://formula-1.upd...-Bull/view.html

Oct.7 (GMM) As expected, the confirmation of Fernando Alonso's move to Ferrari turned the key to kick-starting the 2010 driver market.

Much of the specialist formula one media waited in vain throughout Tuesday for the announcement of Robert Kubica's move to Renault, but the French daily L'Equipe reports that the deal will actually be unveiled on Wednesday.

The hottest new rumour is that McLaren and Toyota are not alone in pushing for Kimi Raikkonen. Germany's Sport Bild reports contact between the Finn's management and Red Bull Racing, despite the fact that Mark Webber was recently put under contract for the 2010 season.

Said Raikkonen's manager Steve Robertson: "We are negotiating even with teams that everybody thinks have no vacancies."


Kimi and Vettel in a fast Redbull sounds like fun!

[Jean Todt]

Schumikonen, on 08 October 2009 - 03:48 PM, said:

I forgot that one too but it is a very handy piece of information for our purpose  

[yurp]

Schumikonen, on 08 October 2009 - 01:05 PM, said:

Probably you have developed that ability but in my personal experience I can tell you that I enjoy more a race/sport when I have a favorite driver/team and that doesn't stop me from enjoying what the rest are doing, I just post how much I enjoyed the Alonso/Webber battle in Bahrein 2004 and I really enjoy watching Hamilton doing things that you are not expecting specially in the wet but at least in my case, I need to have a favorite driver to get the most out of the race and I also need Alonso to loose in case my driver is out of the race.

understood and agreed.

I guess if would consider myself a fan of anyone it would probably be Adrian Newey.
For me - he trumps all those ego centric driver babies any day.

[JHS]

stopkidding, on 08 October 2009 - 09:58 PM, said:

Nope! I am not anti Alonso either. I do think he is among the top F1 drivers, if not the best. I have just decided that next year, I will support Kimi and his team over any other driver and team. I always admired Kimi's attitude and speed since his Mclaren days. He became my No.1 F1 driver when he joined Ferrari. So until I chose another F1 driver over Kimi, he will get all my support! Fans can be very fickle! :-P

Another a related note, how about this rumour? Kimi to Redbull?
http://formula-1.upd...-Bull/view.html

Oct.7 (GMM) As expected, the confirmation of Fernando Alonso's move to Ferrari turned the key to kick-starting the 2010 driver market.

Much of the specialist formula one media waited in vain throughout Tuesday for the announcement of Robert Kubica's move to Renault, but the French daily L'Equipe reports that the deal will actually be unveiled on Wednesday.

The hottest new rumour is that McLaren and Toyota are not alone in pushing for Kimi Raikkonen. Germany's Sport Bild reports contact between the Finn's management and Red Bull Racing, despite the fact that Mark Webber was recently put under contract for the 2010 season.

Said Raikkonen's manager Steve Robertson: "We are negotiating even with teams that everybody thinks have no vacancies."


Kimi and Vettel in a fast Redbull sounds like fun!

Hmm, indeed, that has really thrown a curve ball in the works as everyone was thinking it was only a matter of time the McLaren/Kimi line-up was announced. But it throws up a load more questions:

Who will be in the second seat at McLaren?
Who will be in the second seat at Renault?
If Glock goes to Renault and Trulli to Lotus, what drivers does that leave Toyota?
Where does Webber go?
Who'll be in at Williams alongside Hulkenberg (if, of course, he is confirmed)?

This silly season just gets sillier.

Edited by JHS, 09 October 2009 - 03:48 PM.

[Schumikonen]

JHS, on 09 October 2009 - 03:48 PM, said:

Hmm, indeed, that has really thrown a curve ball in the works as everyone was thinking it was only a matter of time the McLaren/Kimi line-up was announced. But it throws up a load more questions:

Who will be in the second seat at McLaren?
Who will be in the second seat at Renault?
If Glock goes to Renault and Trulli to Lotus, what drivers does that leave Toyota?
Where does Webber go?
Who'll be in at Williams alongside Hulkenberg (if, of course, he is confirmed)?

This silly season just gets sillier.

Ralph Schumacher and Cristiano da Matta or Allan Mcnish?

[JHS]

I'd actually really like to see Allan have another go in F1. I'm sure he'd be near the top of their list if Audi DID ever enter F1.

[Schumikonen]

JHS, on 10 October 2009 - 05:51 PM, said:

I'd actually really like to see Allan have another go in F1. I'm sure he'd be near the top of their list if Audi DID ever enter F1.

I think him and Da Matta could do bettet with another team.

[Jean Todt]

Hakuna matata

[JHS]

Schumikonen, on 10 October 2009 - 06:05 PM, said:

I think him and Da Matta could do bettet with another team.

I'm unsure as to whether Da Matta would be able to do any better second time round. He's still recovering from those awful head injuries he suffered when testing a Champ Car remember?

[lewisthegreat2]

McNish and Da Matta are both way too old, and the latter is basically retired.  McNish is obviously a very good driver, but he's not going to be any better at F1 at age 41.  A prototype laps about 12 seconds a lap slower than a Formula 1 car at Silverstone; compared to a POS IndyCar, they're a few tenths a lap off.  I think he should stay where he is.

Not like it matters since neither driver is ever planning on coming back.

[tifosi too!]

Schumikonen, on 10 October 2009 - 04:48 PM, said:

Ralph Schumacher and Cristiano da Matta or Allan Mcnish?

Pedro Diniz and Gaston Mazzacane should also be considered..!!

[Jean Todt]

Sakon Yamamoto.

[mikathegreat2]

McNish is an excellent driver but I think his heart is with Audi & sportscar racing!

[JHS]

lewisthegreat2, on 10 October 2009 - 10:21 PM, said:

McNish and Da Matta are both way too old, and the latter is basically retired.  McNish is obviously a very good driver, but he's not going to be any better at F1 at age 41.  A prototype laps about 12 seconds a lap slower than a Formula 1 car at Silverstone; compared to a POS IndyCar, they're a few tenths a lap off.  I think he should stay where he is.

Not like it matters since neither driver is ever planning on coming back.

True, but who said age matters? Schumi wants to come back, JV wants to come back, Wurz probably is coming back, Sebastian Loeb wants a go, and neither of them are spring chickens really.

[lewisthegreat2]

JHS, on 09 October 2009 - 03:48 PM, said:

Hmm, indeed, that has really thrown a curve ball in the works as everyone was thinking it was only a matter of time the McLaren/Kimi line-up was announced. But it throws up a load more questions:

Who will be in the second seat at McLaren?
Who will be in the second seat at Renault?
If Glock goes to Renault and Trulli to Lotus, what drivers does that leave Toyota?
Where does Webber go?
Who'll be in at Williams alongside Hulkenberg (if, of course, he is confirmed)?

This silly season just gets sillier.

I will.
George will.
Dale Jr and his cousin/wife.
Back to Australia to ride a bicycle over the winter, and then back in a Red Bull by spring.
Rukki Kovachello.

abbas_gear, on 11 October 2009 - 09:31 AM, said:

Sakon Yamamoto.

He wasn't bad.  Bring him back.

JHS, on 11 October 2009 - 01:17 PM, said:

True, but who said age matters? Schumi wants to come back, JV wants to come back, Wurz probably is coming back, Sebastian Loeb wants a go, and neither of them are spring chickens really.

Just cuz they want to come back doesn't mean they'll be any good.  I have a feeling there's more the Schumi story than a nagging injury; I think he realized he just wasn't as quick as he used to be.  He lost to Carl Edwards in the RoC in the semi-finals; the same Carl Edwards who binned it on the parade lap in a Daytona Prototurtle race at Montr�al.

JV will be rubbish, like he has been in any car he's raced since 1999.

Wurz didn't impress his last year in Williams, and he's been inactive for a while.  I absolutely like the guy, but sports cars are going to suit him better, in my mind.

You see Loeb's GP2 test?  Super fast.  It may have been a DPR, but his teammate beat him by many tenths.  If he's coming without significant seat time, he's making a mistake.

Age does matter.  If it didn't, it wouldn't be so impressive when an older driver like Nigel Mansell or Mark Martin in NASCAR does well.

[Schumikonen]

JHS, on 10 October 2009 - 09:44 PM, said:

I'm unsure as to whether Da Matta would be able to do any better second time round. He's still recovering from those awful head injuries he suffered when testing a Champ Car remember?

Yes, I remember, the one with the reindeer but he is already making his way back to racing again.

Edited by Schumikonen, 11 October 2009 - 02:23 PM.

[Schumikonen]

tifosi too!, on 10 October 2009 - 11:55 PM, said:

Pedro Diniz and Gaston Mazzacane should also be considered..!!

agred

abbas_gear, on 11 October 2009 - 09:31 AM, said:

Sakon Yamamoto.

Agreed

JHS, on 11 October 2009 - 01:17 PM, said:

True, but who said age matters? Schumi wants to come back, JV wants to come back, Wurz probably is coming back, Sebastian Loeb wants a go, and neither of them are spring chickens really.

Thta's right, as we can see they have pleny of option for 2010 maybe JV will be with them, he just want to come back to F1 no matter what team he is driving for.

[JHS]

lewisthegreat2, on 11 October 2009 - 02:09 PM, said:

Just cuz they want to come back doesn't mean they'll be any good.  I have a feeling there's more the Schumi story than a nagging injury; I think he realized he just wasn't as quick as he used to be.  He lost to Carl Edwards in the RoC in the semi-finals; the same Carl Edwards who binned it on the parade lap in a Daytona Prototurtle race at Montr�al.

That's as maybe, but using the rule of RoC, it must mean that Sebastian Loeb is the best driver in the world seeing as he won!

[lewisthegreat2]

/

Edited by lewisthegreat2, 11 October 2009 - 11:09 PM.

[Wez]

BradSpeedMan, on 08 October 2009 - 03:04 PM, said:

Alonso actually had 2 fast teammates. Trulli was one of them. Unfortunately he disobeyed orders(his spat with Renault was well-kown) and he got fired. If you ask me, they simply did'nt like him being faster.

And lets not forget that neither Trulli in 2004 nor Hamilton in 2007 actually beat Alonso in those championships.
Hell was it not for Alonso's joke of a penalty in 2007 Alonso would have been champion;)

[AleHop]

Wez, on 12 October 2009 - 11:10 AM, said:

And lets not forget that neither Trulli in 2004 nor Hamilton in 2007 actually beat Alonso in those championships.
Hell was it not for Alonso's joke of a penalty in 2007 Alonso would have been champion;)

Even with that penalty Alonso would have been champion if McLaren/Dennis/Dad/Hamilton had not played dirty, dirty, dirty.

Edited by AleHop, 12 October 2009 - 01:52 PM.

[Schumikonen]

Wez, on 12 October 2009 - 11:10 AM, said:

And lets not forget that neither Trulli in 2004 nor Hamilton in 2007 actually beat Alonso in those championships.
Hell was it not for Alonso's joke of a penalty in 2007 Alonso would have been champion;)

here we go again, LH defeated Alonso as much as Alonso won the two WDC if Alonso can be called WDC them LH have more reasons to be considered the winner in that team-mate battle, Alonso was just a lucky winner those years but Hamilton a rookie did a better job than Alonso at Mclaren, Alonso failed in the most important part of his job at that team and was to stamp his authority with on track results over LH but he wanted to do this by forcing the team management to put him in that position, Kimi also failed in this same part at Ferrari and I think that's why Massa is still there and he is heading out, look at the reasons you want but Alonso was shamefully defeated by a rookie prooving that he was just a lucky WDC winner.

[Schumikonen]

AleHop, on 12 October 2009 - 01:52 PM, said:

Even with that penalty Alonso would have been champion if McLaren/Dennis/Dad/Hamilton had not played dirty, dirty, dirty.

and I will tell you that even without that penalty LH would have defeated Alonso, had the team supported both drivers equaly from the beggining, remember Monaco and how they (the team) admited they favoured Alonso over Hamilton in that race?

[JHS]

AleHop, on 12 October 2009 - 01:52 PM, said:

Even with that penalty Alonso would have been champion if McLaren/Dennis/Dad/Hamilton had not played dirty, dirty, dirty.

So not contempt with questioning who the champion of 2008 is, we now have to question the actual actual champion of 2007? Well, let's just accept what happened and be gracious in saying the better men won?

[AleHop]

Schumikonen, on 12 October 2009 - 03:17 PM, said:

and I will tell you that even without that penalty LH would have defeated Alonso, had the team supported both drivers equaly from the beggining, remember Monaco and how they (the team) admited they favoured Alonso over Hamilton in that race?