42 replies to this topic

[maure]

How can one improve on something that is already perfect?

New overtaking rules for F1

http://totalf1.com/f...g_rules_for_F1/

[Delta]

I'm happy to see this change. Lewis was penalised for it, and Michael not during 2011 it wasn't being applied consistently and now the stewards have no reason not to apply the rules consistently now.

[Massa]

Just make overtaking a rule.  If you don't make five overtakes for position in a race, you get banned forever.

No, actually, the link doesn't work, but if it's the new blocking rules, those are actually good.  Everyone should always get one move.  That's been an unwritten (and far-to-often unrespected) code in auto racing for a long time.  It's easily enforced in touring or stock cars; if you make a second move, you just get dumped and spin off the other guy's front bumper.  In open-wheel, the drivers can't exactly serve justice when the stewards don't.

[jackgarrett]

I think its a HUGE rule and maybe other motor sports will follow. Id say its the biggest rule change in years. It will change how they will battle and maybe change some driveing styles.

[Senna's Ghost]

What happened to the good old days when it was your responsibility to get by another driver, if you did it great, move on to the next; if you didn't you were stuck.  You even had to work hard at overtaking some of the cars you were lapping (de Cesaris, Alliot, Arnoux spring to mind).  I am not encouraging dangerous driving, what I am saying is that let the drivers drive and give them the freedom to do so instead of adding to the rule book. The more rules are passed, the more the sport becomes contentious and subjective because at one race a driver is penalised for an incident and then at another race a driver is not penalised for an incident that is similar in nature.  Then you get the arguement of favouritism or victimisation.  The drivers should be allowed to police themselves more.  They have their GPDA meetings for them to voice their opinions if they believe that someone is stepping over the line.

Years ago there would have been no problem with the way that Schumacher drove at Monza if everyone else was playing by the same rules.  I had no problem with it, however because of the one move rule, it was pushing it to the extreme and clearly Ross Brawn was told by the stewards to reign him in.  That shouldn't be the case.  It is up to Hamilton to get past just as Button had been able to do so before him.  I driver should use all of his talent, experience, guile and ability to make a pass.  He should not radio his team and tell them to tell teacher that someone is not playing fair.

The drivers have at their disposal KERS, DRS, the blue flag rule and now the one defensive line move rule.  What next?  The art of defensive driving is been taken out of the sport and sometimes watching a driver use all of his talent and the car's characteristics to his advantage was something special to behold (Villenuve Spain 1981, Senna Spain 1987 (Ayrton didn't win it, or come close, but his driving for the best result his car was capable of was superb.  He was a road block throughout the race and it was up to the others to find a way past) are two that spring to mind).

In the past we could see and work out who the great overtakers were and who were not so good.  Isn't that what this sport is about?

[Rainmaster]

Senna, on 03 February 2012 - 09:35 AM, said:

What happened to the good old days when it was your responsibility to get by another driver, if you did it great, move on to the next; if you didn't you were stuck.  You even had to work hard at overtaking some of the cars you were lapping (de Cesaris, Alliot, Arnoux spring to mind).  I am not encouraging dangerous driving, what I am saying is that let the drivers drive and give them the freedom to do so instead of adding to the rule book. The more rules are passed, the more the sport becomes contentious and subjective because at one race a driver is penalised for an incident and then at another race a driver is not penalised for an incident that is similar in nature.  Then you get the arguement of favouritism or victimisation.  The drivers should be allowed to police themselves more.  They have their GPDA meetings for them to voice their opinions if they believe that someone is stepping over the line.

Years ago there would have been no problem with the way that Schumacher drove at Monza if everyone else was playing by the same rules.  I had no problem with it, however because of the one move rule, it was pushing it to the extreme and clearly Ross Brawn was told by the stewards to reign him in.  That shouldn't be the case.  It is up to Hamilton to get past just as Button had been able to do so before him.  I driver should use all of his talent, experience, guile and ability to make a pass.  He should not radio his team and tell them to tell teacher that someone is not playing fair.

The drivers have at their disposal KERS, DRS, the blue flag rule and now the one defensive line move rule.  What next?  The art of defensive driving is been taken out of the sport and sometimes watching a driver use all of his talent and the car's characteristics to his advantage was something special to behold (Villenuve Spain 1981, Senna Spain 1987 (Ayrton didn't win it, or come close, but his driving for the best result his car was capable of was superb.  He was a road block throughout the race and it was up to the others to find a way past) are two that spring to mind).

In the past we could see and work out who the great overtakers were and who were not so good.  Isn't that what this sport is about?

It is what the sport is about, and it should be closer to the way you describe rather than the way it is now. Though I seem to recall it was the drivers who began this policing of defensive driving, by asking the FIA to clamp down on it.

[RobbieD90]

I am unsure whether this is a good rule change or not. My view is the drivers should use there common sense and all do - most of the time - if you take out Micheal Schumacher that is. I think this rule change is completely unneccessary. They have changed a rule purely based on the antics of one driver. I think it will probably cause more problems than it will solve. On the other hand, if the drivers know they have to leave a car width then they are responsible for any contact that takes place.

I think it is a tricky one and until we see the rule put into practice it is also not known how the stewards will interpret the rules.

[Delta]

Senna, on 03 February 2012 - 09:35 AM, said:

What happened to the good old days when it was your responsibility to get by another driver, if you did it great, move on to the next; if you didn't you were stuck.  You even had to work hard at overtaking some of the cars you were lapping (de Cesaris, Alliot, Arnoux spring to mind).  I am not encouraging dangerous driving, what I am saying is that let the drivers drive and give them the freedom to do so instead of adding to the rule book. The more rules are passed, the more the sport becomes contentious and subjective because at one race a driver is penalised for an incident and then at another race a driver is not penalised for an incident that is similar in nature.  Then you get the arguement of favouritism or victimisation.  The drivers should be allowed to police themselves more.  They have their GPDA meetings for them to voice their opinions if they believe that someone is stepping over the line.

Years ago there would have been no problem with the way that Schumacher drove at Monza if everyone else was playing by the same rules.  I had no problem with it, however because of the one move rule, it was pushing it to the extreme and clearly Ross Brawn was told by the stewards to reign him in.  That shouldn't be the case.  It is up to Hamilton to get past just as Button had been able to do so before him.  I driver should use all of his talent, experience, guile and ability to make a pass.  He should not radio his team and tell them to tell teacher that someone is not playing fair.

The drivers have at their disposal KERS, DRS, the blue flag rule and now the one defensive line move rule.  What next?  The art of defensive driving is been taken out of the sport and sometimes watching a driver use all of his talent and the car's characteristics to his advantage was something special to behold (Villenuve Spain 1981, Senna Spain 1987 (Ayrton didn't win it, or come close, but his driving for the best result his car was capable of was superb.  He was a road block throughout the race and it was up to the others to find a way past) are two that spring to mind).

In the past we could see and work out who the great overtakers were and who were not so good.  Isn't that what this sport is about?

Kers and DRS are precisely why safer racing should be encouraged. If one of the drivers has his DRS open and is using KERS as well, and the other isn't, weaving all over the place has the potential to create a quite enormous accident. And F1 cars are so fast these days, that you simply cannot afford to take liberties that you may get away with in lower performance formulae. I don't think making this rule official will detract from the quality of the racing at all.

[Insider]

Dump KERS, DRS and the 'one move rule'. Ayrton, Nige and Alain managed to overtake people, whatever you put in their way. Modern circuits were overtaking is deemed difficult should be altered. What's the point in racing at them anyway? I want to see these guys racing each other. I suggest we let them. We all know the team with the fastest package always wins, anyway - gadgets or no gadgets.

DEIT: Typo

Edited by Insider, 05 February 2012 - 11:27 AM.

[Senna's Ghost]

Delta, on 05 February 2012 - 01:16 AM, said:

Kers and DRS are precisely why safer racing should be encouraged. If one of the drivers has his DRS open and is using KERS as well, and the other isn't, weaving all over the place has the potential to create a quite enormous accident. And F1 cars are so fast these days, that you simply cannot afford to take liberties that you may get away with in lower performance formulae. I don't think making this rule official will detract from the quality of the racing at all.

I am not advocating drivers to weave all over the place, and that wouldn’t happen in any case.  The racing line is still the fastest and cleanest way around a circuit. Veering off that racing line for any purpose and the driver runs the risk of picking up debris on his tyres that will cost him overall pace on the lap or possibly a puncture.

F1 cars have always been fast and I would argue that cars on the grid these days are closer in speed than they have ever been, even with DRS and KERS to help them.  Back in the 1980’s you could get a Williams Honda lapping over 10secs a lap faster than those at the back of the grid (Pascal Farbre in the AGS would be lapped within first 10 laps of every race). Closing speeds of 30mph would not be unusual, now if a Red Bull or McLaren has a 5-7mph advantage using all the gadgets at their disposal over an HRT or Marussia then they would be well pleased with that.

We are told that these are the best racing drivers in the world.  I believe that so let them show us how good they are. What I am advocating is the driver is allowed to defend if necessary his position to the best of his ability and not have a hand tied behind his back. The rule as it is presented in the articled linked to this thread is still ambiguous and open to interpretation. It says that after the lead driver makes his 1 defensive move, presumably to the inside to defend the corner, then he must leave at least a cars width for his opponent. So that would infer that the lead driver may move back over from the inside to say the middle of the track, or as best he can judge that in the heat of battle.

#46 was right in saying that the drivers asked the FIA to police the movement in the braking zone and general racing standards and then penalise any transgressors.  I believethat the drivers were wrong with this. They shirked their responsibility in the matter. They’re the ones on the track they should be able to police it themselves. Maybe they should draw up anaccepted code of conduct signed by all the drivers as to their racingbehaviour. You will always have the more aggressive driver such as Schumacher and that’s not a bad thing. At least you know what you are getting when you’re racing him.

Most of the racing on the track is within the bounds ofacceptable racing behaviour in my opinion. The only one I had an issue with was when Schumacher pushed Barrichello towards the pit wall at Hungary in 2010.

I’m with the Insider on the issue of DRS and KERS.  Let’s get rid. When they started with it last year I was quite pleased with the results, but as the season went on I realised that they were not right for the sport. The crunch came in the Belgian GP when Webber pulled out the overtake of the season against Alonso going into Eau Rouge. Was Alonso bothered by this? Not in the slightest. After the race he told journalists that he knew all he had to do was stay with Webber throughout the lap and then he would pass him in the DRS zone of the next lap, which he did. So all that work and bravery shown by Webber was for nothing. That’s not right. The drivers don’t get any satisfaction passing the others in the DRS zone as the pass is achieved often before braking becomes the deciding factor.

To some up my feelings on the overtaking rules what I want to see is the uncertainty of whether an overtaking move will happen or will it be successfullydefended against.  What I don’t want the case of the driver is in the DRS zone, he’s pressed his KERS, activated his DRS. The driver he has about to overtake has made his move to the inside to defend the corner but it doesn’t matter as he’s just been overtaken around the outside and there was nothing he could of done to prevent that happening. That’s not racing and it's not a product you can sell Bernie.

Edit: space bar trouble.

Edited by Senna's Ghost, 07 February 2012 - 10:52 AM.

[F1 FANatic]

The rule has been one move in F1 for a long time. But it was always understood that a driver is allowed to move back onto the racing line as he reaches the corner. That's why I was so annoyed by all the F1 commentators with their bitching during monza. Michael moved off the racing line to block and then back onto the racing line as the corner approached. That is one move. Otherwise I would count it as half a move.

For years that was the interpretation of the rule. Anybody remember Imola in '05 and '06? With this new interpretation both Michael and Alonso at those races should have had a lifetime ban the number of times they broke the rule.

And everybody complains about Hamilton blocking Petrov. If you watch the incident, Hamilton moved off and back onto the racing line 3 times on the same strait, multiple times. That is a bit different than a block and moving back onto the line at the corner.

[Autumnpuma]

Senna, on 03 February 2012 - 09:35 AM, said:

What happened to the good old days when it was your responsibility to get by another driver, if you did it great, move on to the next; if you didn't you were stuck.  You even had to work hard at overtaking some of the cars you were lapping (de Cesaris, Alliot, Arnoux spring to mind).  I am not encouraging dangerous driving, what I am saying is that let the drivers drive and give them the freedom to do so instead of adding to the rule book. The more rules are passed, the more the sport becomes contentious and subjective because at one race a driver is penalised for an incident and then at another race a driver is not penalised for an incident that is similar in nature.  Then you get the arguement of favouritism or victimisation.  The drivers should be allowed to police themselves more.  They have their GPDA meetings for them to voice their opinions if they believe that someone is stepping over the line.

Years ago there would have been no problem with the way that Schumacher drove at Monza if everyone else was playing by the same rules.  I had no problem with it, however because of the one move rule, it was pushing it to the extreme and clearly Ross Brawn was told by the stewards to reign him in.  That shouldn't be the case.  It is up to Hamilton to get past just as Button had been able to do so before him.  I driver should use all of his talent, experience, guile and ability to make a pass.  He should not radio his team and tell them to tell teacher that someone is not playing fair.

The drivers have at their disposal KERS, DRS, the blue flag rule and now the one defensive line move rule.  What next?  The art of defensive driving is been taken out of the sport and sometimes watching a driver use all of his talent and the car's characteristics to his advantage was something special to behold (Villenuve Spain 1981, Senna Spain 1987 (Ayrton didn't win it, or come close, but his driving for the best result his car was capable of was superb.  He was a road block throughout the race and it was up to the others to find a way past) are two that spring to mind).

In the past we could see and work out who the great overtakers were and who were not so good.  Isn't that what this sport is about?

Amen.

F1 FANatic, on 07 February 2012 - 03:27 PM, said:

The rule has been one move in F1 for a long time. But it was always understood that a driver is allowed to move back onto the racing line as he reaches the corner. That's why I was so annoyed by all the F1 commentators with their bitching during monza. Michael moved off the racing line to block and then back onto the racing line as the corner approached. That is one move. Otherwise I would count it as half a move.

For years that was the interpretation of the rule. Anybody remember Imola in '05 and '06? With this new interpretation both Michael and Alonso at those races should have had a lifetime ban the number of times they broke the rule.

And everybody complains about Hamilton blocking Petrov. If you watch the incident, Hamilton moved off and back onto the racing line 3 times on the same strait, multiple times. That is a bit different than a block and moving back onto the line at the corner.

Yes, but since many folks don't like Hamilton, this incident isn't being viewed correctly. Hamilton weaved to break a draft. That's a common and long-standing tactic down a long straight. It's only blocking if he does it right before a corner. That is also a long-standing, unspoken rule among drivers (or used to be before the younger generation with little grasp of racing came along).

[dribbler]

Autumnpuma, on 09 February 2012 - 11:10 PM, said:

(or used to be before the younger generation with little grasp of racing came along).

Young F1 drivers are victims of the rules and the way cars are unable to follow each other. It has nothing to do with their grasp of racing as a concept. I suspect they are as miffed as anyone else, having come through the ranks where pure racing would have been the order of things.

Don't make it sound like it's their fault or inability.

[HandyNZL]

Autumnpuma, on 09 February 2012 - 11:10 PM, said:

Amen.



Yes, but since many folks don't like Hamilton, this incident isn't being viewed correctly. Hamilton weaved to break a draft. That's a common and long-standing tactic down a long straight. It's only blocking if he does it right before a corner. That is also a long-standing, unspoken rule among drivers (or used to be before the younger generation with little grasp of racing came along).

It's blocking into a corner in Indy racing..it's blocking anywhere on a track in F1...however, I agree that Hamilton was breaking the tow, not blocking Petrov as he moved in every case BEFORE Petrov.  To block is a defensive tactic, and the last time I looked "defensive" meant something along the lines of a reactionary action...i.e. someone is about to stab me, so I put my hands infront of my face...where as putting my hands up first would be seen to be offensive....so Hamilton was driving offensively, and by that we don't mean flipping the the bird and cussing, and never defensively (in that particular part of that particular race)

[BradSpeedMan]

F1 FANatic, on 07 February 2012 - 03:27 PM, said:

And everybody complains about Hamilton blocking Petrov. If you watch the incident, Hamilton moved off and back onto the racing line 3 times on the same strait, multiple times. That is a bit different than a block and moving back onto the line at the corner.

add to that it was very exciting to watch... real racing method was used....

Edited by BradSpeedMan, 10 February 2012 - 08:42 AM.

[AleHop]

C'mon! Hamilton/Petrov didn't fit in the rules of that season. One move off the line and one back on the line before the corner is what racing is about.

Breaking the tow my a$$$!!!!

[AleHop]

maure, on 05 January 2012 - 07:21 AM, said:

How can one improve on something that is already perfect?

It still needs some tweaking.

Charlie should be allowed to tell a driver to move over.

[AleHop]

[Autumnpuma]

dribbler, on 10 February 2012 - 05:00 AM, said:

Young F1 drivers are victims of the rules and the way cars are unable to follow each other. It has nothing to do with their grasp of racing as a concept. I suspect they are as miffed as anyone else, having come through the ranks where pure racing would have been the order of things.

Don't make it sound like it's their fault or inability.

Ah yes, blame it on the car and blame it on the rules. Blame it on the grass and blame it on the crosswind and the dust on the track and everything else but their inability to complete a pass. Sorry, not buying it. Most of the current drivers are complainers with too little talent, but that discussion strays a bit from the topic here, sorry I injected it.

So, thinking about this one move rule, are we now going to see drivers hugging the line and forcing the trailing car to either shoot dangerously up the inside, taking both cars out, or going 'round the outside where there's no grip and landing off the track? I mean, if the leading driver can't close the door after moving over, why bother to move at all? Much better to force the trailing driver into a ball-out banzai move that will certainly be entertaining, but not exactly end well.

[Insider]

Autumnpuma, on 09 February 2012 - 11:10 PM, said:

Amen.



Yes, but since many folks don't like Hamilton, this incident isn't being viewed correctly. Hamilton weaved to break a draft. That's a common and long-standing tactic down a long straight. It's only blocking if he does it right before a corner. That is also a long-standing, unspoken rule among drivers (or used to be before the younger generation with little grasp of racing came along).

I must agree with what you say. Drive, dammit, just drive!

[dribbler]

Autumnpuma, on 10 February 2012 - 11:12 PM, said:

Ah yes, blame it on the car and blame it on the rules. Blame it on the grass and blame it on the crosswind and the dust on the track and everything else but their inability to complete a pass. Sorry, not buying it. Most of the current drivers are complainers with too little talent, but that discussion strays a bit from the topic here, sorry I injected it.

Drivel. It's long been accepted that modern aero makes following and passing tough. Let's take Monza last year when your boy, Hamilton could not get passed Schumacher. Was that a lack of talent?

What about Imola 2005 when Schumacher could not get past Alonso. Perhaps he couldn't be bothered. Or maybe a lack of talent again.

When the best drivers allude to the fact that overtaking is difficult, why do we wrongly assume its lack of talent or want from the younger guys?

[Rainmaster]

I don't buy it either. I don't think it's true that the drivers are less talented or that they want to win less, I can't think of any reason that would be the case. The aero issue has been around for a very long time indeed and has no doubt only got worse as the cars became more aerodynamically complex.



Edit: I copied the URL time link but it doesn't work for some reason; anyway, 7 minutes in is relevant.

Edited by #46, 12 February 2012 - 06:22 PM.

[HandyNZL]

I gotta watch that for seven whole damn minutes....and it's not even something cool, like Formula One or anything...

[JHS18]

I really don't get why it has to be so complicated and wordy. All that is going to achieve is make it more difficult to decide for a steward's perspective, and more confusing for casual fans to understand when a decision has been met.

I think it is pretty clear that there's a definite difference between defending and blocking. Defending is placing a car intelligently to try and prevent someone behind overtaking, blocking is putting the car behind in genuine danger - see Schumacher/Barrichello Hungary '10.

As others have said, there's generally an unwritten rule, a code of conduct that drivers know about and more often than not, follow. Okay, drivers are going to push the limits, but I think most of them know where to draw the line at.

This kind of reminds me of the Indycar defending/blocking messy situation. Sure, that has its benefits and is there for the safety of drivers, particularly on ovals, but it is just such a messy situation. Most rules in racing have grown overly complicated and contrived recently, at this rate overtaking in motorsport will grow more and more like the rules of chess than how proper racing should be - the whole situation with a car having to be one second behind a car in front to use DRS is a clear example. Just cut the crap, keep it simple and keep the ball in the drivers' court rather than in the steward's room.

In the last three years, F1 has been good at avoiding on track controversy in terms of penalties - generally most fans agree with the decision, and I have no doubt that has come from having ex-F1 drivers on the steward's pannel. But I just get a horrible feeling with this that once again we'll start seeing some really controversial, arguable penalties that just spoil the flow of the race.

Edited by JHS18, 13 February 2012 - 03:34 PM.

[Autumnpuma]

dribbler, on 12 February 2012 - 06:00 PM, said:

Drivel. It's long been accepted that modern aero makes following and passing tough. Let's take Monza last year when your boy, Hamilton could not get passed Schumacher. Was that a lack of talent?

For your statement to be true, we would have to see *no* passing because the cars' 'modern aero' don't essentially change, right? But I notice you've changed your tone. Your first post was a blanket defense of young F1 drivers, implying that *all* of them are victim of the cars and the rules. Now you soften that up to 'modern aero makes it tough to pass'. I'm not arguing the latter. I agree with it. It *is* tough to pass. It has *always* been tough to pass. The difference is that the younger drivers are pointing to the cars and the rules as a problem, to be fixed with the rules. WRONG. Their lack of talent is the problem. Many drivers are capable of pulling off passes at every track all up and down the grid. So where then are we left to place the blame and the fix? With the drivers incapable of passing, that's where.

dribbler, on 12 February 2012 - 06:00 PM, said:

When the best drivers allude to the fact that overtaking is difficult, why do we wrongly assume its lack of talent or want from the younger guys?

I take issue with the younger drivers thinking a rules change will fix it. I understand some of the drivers were behind this overtaking change. And it *is* lack of talent. As I've said, when other drivers can pull off a pass, it wipes out your argument that the cars and the rules are to blame.

[HandyNZL]

You know, Hamilton pussy-footed along behind Schumacher, lap after lap, not really going for it as he was up for a reaming by the media if they touched.  Then along comes Button, and, one-two-buckle-your-shoe, he passes both of them.

Everyone would say that Hamilton has just as much talent as Button.

Some would say Hamilton has more outright speed than Button.

Some would say that Button has never been that great at overtaking in the past (though paired with the Macca, he's been going great guns).

The difference on that day was the mindset.  Hamilton was hesitant, likely worrying about the outcome.  Button, had no grief with the media, and just saw the gap and opportunity and took it.  Hamilton had the same opportunity on other laps before that one, but never took it.

So, I think, we can apply the same sort of thing to young /slash/ new drivers on the grid.  They have one eye on their race place, one eye on bringing the car home in one piece, and one eye on making sure they get signed on for another year.  The established drivers, Hamilton, Button, Alonso, Massa, Rubens, Schumacher, Rosberg, Webber, Vettel and Kimi, don't drive around worrying that if they touch cars that they will find themselves out of a race drive the next year.

Now I mention Rubens, because he is the exception to the rule.  Up to last season he was fairly deft and making passes...then when his seat was on the line, as he surely knew it was, he seemingly slipped into conservative mode making sure he finished the race first...because to finish first, first you must finish.

If you are a Sutil, or a Maldonado, or a Buemi, you're going to sit there and make sure that the overtake is completely safe, as they know that the team will not accept too many DNF's from them, even if a resultant touch is not their fault.  It cost's more money to build new car parts than it does just to strip and re-fit for the next race.

Therefore, it ends up looking like the newer drivers have less talent, as they don't make that many passes, when compared to the established drivers, all of whom make more overtakes, or stick their noses in places that the newer guys never attempt.

As much as you can cry about blocking, perhaps the modern habit of one year driver deals for the newer guys is more detrimental to the sport?

[Autumnpuma]

I agree, Craig. You're saying what I'm saying: It's down to the driver, not the car or the rules. I bring up the younger drivers because it was mentioned that the drivers were behind this new overtaking rule. My point was this: the drivers are blaming everything but themselves. This rule wont fix anything, only a bit of racy-ness in the drivers will fix this.

EDIT: Craig, while I appreciate your desire to be utterly fair and not point blame at any driver, sometimes you have to point blame. Honesty demands it. Your true and fair statement that some drivers choose to drive conservatively isn't a valid defense of them. They *choose* to drive that way. Their *choice* lays the blame squarely on their shoulders.

So, is it lack of talent? Maybe not. Maybe it's worse. Maybe it's talent that is unused and undared.

Edited by Autumnpuma, 15 February 2012 - 11:59 PM.

[Autumnpuma]

HandyNZL, on 14 February 2012 - 09:03 AM, said:

Therefore, it ends up looking like the newer drivers have less talent, as they don't make that many passes, when compared to the established drivers, all of whom make more overtakes, or stick their noses in places that the newer guys never attempt.

As much as you can cry about blocking, perhaps the modern habit of one year driver deals for the newer guys is more detrimental to the sport?

This is interesting. I would argue that the established drivers took the risks when they were new and that lead to them becoming the superstars of today. Playing it safe only works when you're gunning for points towards winning the championship. Anything less than that and you should race til your balls explode. Be racy and the big teams will come calling. Race conservatively, and you're gone.

One year is enough to know if a driver will race his balls off or not.

[HandyNZL]

One race should be the measure of their balls aka has this guy got some speed.

I think we are reading from the same hymn book, but maybe not the same page.

Also, being that it is my opinion, I am putting myself in the younger guy's shoes...my first concern would be to get to the end of the race, my second concern to finish as highly placed or better than my last outing, my third concern would be beating my team mate, and my fourth concern to be bullying my way past someone in a 50/50 situation.

If I was in Hamilton's shoes, my first concern would be to win the race, my second concern would be to pass everyone at any opportunity even if it was less than a 50/50 opportunity, my third would be to beat my team mate, my fourth to place higher or as well as my previous race.  Why?  Because I'm a World Champion with a three year contract in my pocket, and I don' drive for Ferrari

Also without testing, a guy in his first year, is never going to have the confidence as that of someone in his third year, or even second.  For the first half of the season, you're more likely to be finding the limit, and the rest of the year you're going to be concentratiing on the engineering side and making the car faster.

Some guys can come into the sport in their first year and handle the engineering side from the start, like Rosberg whom Frank Williams and Patrick Head both said had a fantastic engineering mind.

Being good in a race car is all about seat time.  If you are not in one, then you're not learning.

How good a driver were you in the first year of driving a car compared to the third year?

[HandyNZL]

One race should be the measure of their balls aka has this guy got some speed.

I think we are reading from the same hymn book, but maybe not the same page.

Also, being that it is my opinion, I am putting myself in the younger guy's shoes...my first concern would be to get to the end of the race, my second concern to finish as highly placed or better than my last outing, my third concern would be beating my team mate, and my fourth concern to be bullying my way past someone in a 50/50 situation.

If I was in Hamilton's shoes, my first concern would be to win the race, my second concern would be to pass everyone at any opportunity even if it was less than a 50/50 opportunity, my third would be to beat my team mate, my fourth to place higher or as well as my previous race.  Why?  Because I'm a World Champion with a three year contract in my pocket, and I don' drive for Ferrari

Also without testing, a guy in his first year, is never going to have the confidence as that of someone in his third year, or even second.  For the first half of the season, you're more likely to be finding the limit, and the rest of the year you're going to be concentratiing on the engineering side and making the car faster.

Some guys can come into the sport in their first year and handle the engineering side from the start, like Rosberg whom Frank Williams and Patrick Head both said had a fantastic engineering mind.

Being good in a race car is all about seat time.  If you are not in one, then you're not learning.

How good a driver were you in the first year of driving a car compared to the third year?