325 replies to this topic

[Quiet One]

BradSpeedMan, on 21 March 2012 - 11:34 AM, said:

Even that (flying out a new chassis for the guy) creates more pressure, what are they gonna say when Massa performs just as bad as he did in Melbourne...

That is why I quoted your previous post, you silly man!

What they would do is say "See? It's not that the car is so bad. We gave him our newest chassis and he still sucks!" then point the finger at Felipinho and hope that everybody will be busy enough lynching Massa to give them a few weeks of respite to focus on the big issue: how close are they to become this year's Toyota.

[BradSpeedMan]

DPR, on 21 March 2012 - 11:30 AM, said:

quite simply LdM IS FIAT/FERRARI , so he ain't going anywhere!!
This is the man who thanked MS for all his hard work by shoving him out of the door, then thanked KR for his WDC by doing the same.

next on the list... Alonso will shove himself out...

[Rainmaster]

Quiet One, on 21 March 2012 - 11:20 AM, said:

Personally, I think that there's no such thing as silly sentimentalism or poor judgement at THIS level of underperformance. Silly sentimentalism was McLaren overprotecting Lewis when a godd old slap on the face and a "Man it up!" shout would have worked better to bring a good driver back to the fight. By that time Ferrari in  the persons of LdM and SD were telling everybody how great Alonso was and how close was Massa to be sent home with an F in his report card. So there's obviously no unconditional love for him, nor ignorance of his untenable level of performance.

It is (and historically always were) a team very sensitive to the media and public pressure. And the pressure they receive is enormous (for the record, they consider "people and media" only the Italian ones). When everybody else is aking for Massa's head, whether justifiably so or not, and being a rather cheap scapegoat for the current crysis at Maranello it is still remarkable that they keep sticking so strongly with Felipinho, even knowing that any pressure that they don't re direct against Massa will explode right in Sd and LdM hand (I am not saying that this should be the RIGHT course of action, mind you, but the most logical from Ldm and SD)

There's a hint of what is happening on Brad's quoted article when they say “This choice was taken to clear up any doubts about the unusual performance of his car during the weekend at Albert Park,”.
Knowing that the guy can't be replaced before Malaysia, anyways, they are using him as a guinea pig and, probably, to lay as much blame on the failure to perform from the teams' side as possible.
They know that so far, Alonso has been more than flawless and the pits as well (were the fastest pitstops consistently during the whole Austrailan GP), so they are quite short on candidates for the public bonfire that is being built right now...except for LdM or SD themselves...

No, I sort of agree. All I mean to say when I said it was 'sentimental' is that clearly there's something other than logic influencing their decision to continue employing him. As an oversimplification, it could be some kind of sentimentality or emotion, they obviously liked him a lot and don't want to embarrass him... if Jean Todt was still involved I'd postulate it was because of that connection. Whatever the mixture of reasons it doesn't really matter, it shows bad management because there isn't any good reason for him to still be there this year. Arguably not even last year as at the end of 2010 the points deficit to Alonso was over a 100 points, a huge gap between team mates especially for a 'top team'. Even if people wanted to say it was because Alonso needs a non-threatening team mate, there are plenty of drivers between Massa's level of performance for the past two years and Alonso's level. So you could hire a much better no.2 (anybody other than Hamilton, Vettel or Button) who would score points for the team while still not being able to rattle Alonso's cage, if that's the theory some people want to believe.

Edited by #46, 21 March 2012 - 12:54 PM.

[Quiet One]

#46, on 21 March 2012 - 12:53 PM, said:

No, I sort of agree. All I mean to say when I said it was 'sentimental' is that clearly there's something other than logic influencing their decision to continue employing him. As an oversimplification, it could be some kind of sentimentality or emotion, they obviously liked him a lot and don't want to embarrass him... if Jean Todt was still involved I'd postulate it was because of that connection. Whatever the mixture of reasons it doesn't really matter, it shows bad management because there isn't any good reason for him to still be there this year. Arguably not even last year as at the end of 2010 the points deficit to Alonso was over a 100 points, a huge gap between team mates especially for a 'top team'. Even if people wanted to say it was because Alonso needs a non-threatening team mate, there are plenty of drivers between Massa's level of performance for the past two years and Alonso's level. So you could hire a much better no.2 (anybody other than Hamilton, Vettel or Button) who would score points for the team while still not being able to rattle Alonso's cage, if that's the theory some people want to believe.

Yup.

[DPR]

there is NO benefit to be had from changing driver personal at Fiat this year.
That's why there's about as much chance of Argentina hosting a grand prix on the Falkland Islands as there is Massa going anywhere soon.
Replacing Massa will not make for a better car - the end!

[Massa]

yurp, on 21 March 2012 - 11:00 AM, said:

images.jpg

Well done.

[Quiet One]

I will something good about Massa (for a change!)

The guy has been ridiculed, not just by me and a few others but by 90% of the whole F1 world, be it either the fans, the media or personalities. He has been asked the same questions about his future over and over again. Speculations about who is going to replace him has been done gazillions of times in the open as if he was never there. Yet, every time he is asked about it he calmly replies that he is not affected, although he has every right to be affected and most probably is. But he manages to maintain his dignity and keep his chin up even in this situation.

I don't rate him as a driver, but must admire his dignity in a scenario where many others would have failed.

[BradSpeedMan]

Quiet One, on 23 March 2012 - 05:12 PM, said:

I will something good about Massa (for a change!)

The guy has been ridiculed, not just by me and a few others but by 90% of the whole F1 world, be it either the fans, the media or personalities. He has been asked the same questions about his future over and over again. Speculations about who is going to replace him has been done gazillions of times in the open as if he was never there. Yet, every time he is asked about it he calmly replies that he is not affected, although he has every right to be affected and most probably is. But he manages to maintain his dignity and keep his chin up even in this situation.

I don't rate him as a driver, but must admire his dignity in a scenario where many others would have failed.

lovely stuff!

[Rainmaster]

Quiet One, on 23 March 2012 - 05:12 PM, said:

I will something good about Massa (for a change!)

The guy has been ridiculed, not just by me and a few others but by 90% of the whole F1 world, be it either the fans, the media or personalities. He has been asked the same questions about his future over and over again. Speculations about who is going to replace him has been done gazillions of times in the open as if he was never there. Yet, every time he is asked about it he calmly replies that he is not affected, although he has every right to be affected and most probably is. But he manages to maintain his dignity and keep his chin up even in this situation.

I don't rate him as a driver, but must admire his dignity in a scenario where many others would have failed.

Pah, you Massa fans..

[Massa]

Yeah, I really like Massa, for similar reasons.  No one believes in him but he's really okay with that.  He's had success, even if it was a total fluke, he was set back by his injury and he still came back anyway when it would be so easy to say "I've got a wife, I've got a kid, I'm set for life financially, let's not risk this."  He did a really cool thing back at Brazil 2008, if you remember, giving spare Ferrari uniforms to other teams' crew members, suspecting that after the race ending, there may be some violence targeting those who beat Massa for the title.  I admire that Massa plays this game with so much heart...but that doesn't mean it would stop me from firing him.  I'd love to have him in my team in some role of little consequence as a motivator of sorts, maybe have him be a third driver and just attend the races and keep everyone in high spirits, but I'd never hire him as a driver.

Mostly, I really just refuse to ever say anything good about my favorite drivers, and fortunately I don't often have to because most of my favorite drivers barely have better racing résumés than I do.

[freaky2]

Well Eric, it's no fun supporting the guy who always wins... I used to like Vettel and then he did that nasty trick on me

But not saying anything good about your favourite drivers for fear of being biased is a bit depressing, waiting to hear from the people "biased in another direction" to see if they also think the same as you or maybe they're disappointed...

[Massa]

Not a fear of being perceived as biased, you guys know I'm biased.

Wait until Robert Wickens gets on the grid.  Look at guys like Scott Speed, or Joey Hand in DTM.  When they race in U.S. series, they're my least favorite guys.  When they race in Europe, I love them.  They do something in the U.S., I'll tell you it's cheap, I'll tell you they're jerks.  When they do that same thing in Europe, I'll tell you it's American grit, and that these guys are just self-confident, bold, and determined, unyielding to tired old gentlemanly standards that hold no bearing.  What I say about Speed on NASCAR forums and what I've said about Speed here during his time in F1, are the total opposite, and he's still the same guy.  But nationality blinds me from almost all I can fault a driver for (other than something serious, like an actual criminal conviction outside of racing).  An American among Americans, I hate these guys, but an American taking on the world?  Beautiful, gets me every time.

All this to say: I'm the absolute worst and I'm not even ashamed of it.

It's just more fun for me to try to see drivers in the other light on here than I see them when I'm in front of my TV.  Or I just enjoy being overly critical of and demanding too much from drivers.

[Grabthaw the Hammerslayer]

Quiet One, on 23 March 2012 - 05:12 PM, said:

I don't rate him as a driver, but must admire his dignity in a scenario where many others would have failed.

Dignity comes easy if they are paying you millions to drive a Ferrari....

[AleHop]

Grabthaw the Hammerslayer, on 24 March 2012 - 06:58 AM, said:

Dignity comes easy if they are paying you millions to drive a Ferrari....

I'm trying to say something positive about Massa too.

[HandyNZL]

AleHop, on 24 March 2012 - 07:02 AM, said:

I'm trying to say something positive about Massa too.

He still has more hair on his head than his father?

[Quiet One]

Grabthaw the Hammerslayer, on 24 March 2012 - 06:58 AM, said:

Dignity comes easy if they are paying you millions to drive a Ferrari....

Tell that to all the other drivers that failed even to do that despite earning as much or more than Felipinho under much lighter circumstances

[Massa]

He's foregone a trip to be with his family in Brazil to spend time with the engineers in Maranello.

He either:

1) Really cares and wants to get this together.

2) Hates his family.

3) Wants a second career in team management.

4) Wants a second career as a cashier and the engineers are teaching him basic math.

[zrated]

if i were perez i'd jump on the ferrari money bandwagon asap. it may never come around again.

[HandyNZL]

5) His family said they didn't want to see him

6) He was scared that he'd have to drive in Brazil and wouldn't know how

7) He is as bad at making flight arrangements as he is a formula one driver

[Quiet One]

zrated, on 28 March 2012 - 08:28 PM, said:

if i were perez i'd jump on the ferrari money bandwagon asap. it may never come around again.

Ferrari hasn't offered him anything at this point.

Also there are manny obstacles to this move:

1) Perez has no need to jump from a car that is on the rise, consequently raising his stock value, to a car that has ony won a chaotic race under the rain, but that might well be considered the 5th or 6th car on the grid (James Allen dixit). He  can watch it crash and burn whereas he can be a hero at Sauber by merely finishing in the points.

2) Ferrari is already in troubled waters and they will gain nothing by bringing in Perez too early and making him fail by making him ride a dog of a car mid season. Rather have him since start of next season and let Massa carry the blame for all that is wrong this year (I still think that all this over protecting Felipinho is the way they will justify blaming him more later)

3) Many of he former detractors might have forgotten, but the Mexican Marvel of today was just the friggin' Mexican pay driver of old. Carlos Slim would not be too happy to continue funding a team that no longer has the Mexican guy whose seat he paid for. Negotiations with Sauber will be delicate.(BTW, what happened to the "pay drivers are ruining the sport" crowd?)

4) The kid did great at Malaysia. But he is still a rookie and it's not as if has put Kamui to shame (yet). He has all the time in the world, and time is on his side. Ferrari si not urging him, and he has no urge to swap rides. If the occasion presents...then we will see.

[Rainmaster]

Quiet One, on 28 March 2012 - 09:14 PM, said:

Ferrari hasn't offered him anything at this point.

Also there are manny obstacles to this move:

1) Perez has no need to jump from a car that is on the rise, consequently raising his stock value, to a car that has ony won a chaotic race under the rain, but that might well be considered the 5th or 6th car on the grid (James Allen dixit). He  can watch it crash and burn whereas he can be a hero at Sauber by merely finishing in the points.

2) Ferrari is already in troubled waters and they will gain nothing by bringing in Perez too early and making him fail by making him ride a dog of a car mid season. Rather have him since start of next season and let Massa carry the blame for all that is wrong this year (I still think that all this over protecting Felipinho is the way they will justify blaming him more later)

3) Many of he former detractors might have forgotten, but the Mexican Marvel of today was just the friggin' Mexican pay driver of old. Carlos Slim would not be too happy to continue funding a team that no longer has the Mexican guy whose seat he paid for. Negotiations with Sauber will be delicate.(BTW, what happened to the "pay drivers are ruining the sport" crowd?)

4) The kid did great at Malaysia. But he is still a rookie and it's not as if has put Kamui to shame (yet). He has all the time in the world, and time is on his side. Ferrari si not urging him, and he has no urge to swap rides. If the occasion presents...then we will see.

Indeed. The more I think about it the more I hope it doesn't happen this year. It could really hurt his career to be under such scrutiny from everybody and against a guy like Alonso. Let him grow and develop at Sauber and it'll pay better dividends for Ferrari later on, if they decide they do want him. If they must change Massa for somebody I hope it's somebody who has nothing or very little to lose. Plenty of old guys like Heidfeld would meet that criteria, or someone like Alguersuari. But please leave the Mexican Marvel alone for now!

Edited by Rainmaster, 28 March 2012 - 09:24 PM.

[dribbler]

I think Sergio should go to Ferrari as soon as he can. Why? Why not? He might learn from Fernando. If he doesn't he might just (whisper it) beat him. If he isn't allowed to but looks like he could, it will up his stock value even more. Then he could go anywhere. In the meantime, Ferrari might improve and give Sergio a real chance to pick up some wins.

All this 'he isn't ready for Ferrari yet' is romantic bollocks.

He won't go there this year anyway. Ferrari may be calling the shots on keeping him at Sauber, for now. The danger is if they maintain the grooming campaign, he might be picked up by someone like Moo Rouge when Mark is ready to go (if Seb allows it, of course, and doesn't deem him a Mexican ghercumber who is just a little too fast). Then there's McLaren, I suppose, if Lewis really does end up at Mercedes.

Or Sergio might go rallying/lesbian bobbing/git tipping.

Who knows?

Seriously, that wasn't rhetorical. Does someone actually know?

No.

Forum guess work; we are all just guessing monkeys.

I'm certainly rambling more than normal.

[dribbler]

I have to say, I admire Ferrari's take on supporting Massa through this tough time. There is a lot of blood baiting from fans, forums and the press at large and the Maranello of old would have kicked Felipe out. But he must be trying very hard indeed. There must be tangible struggles the team can see that he is trying to overcome. I also suspect dear Rob will be banging the drum as loud as he can. Heartening for Felipe that LDM asked for a round of applause back at the factory to show support for him.

I'm sure this is Massa's last year dressed in red. But if and when he goes, it will be a good thing that Ferrari didn't act irrationally. This speaks volumes about how they are trying to react generally. It may also give a glimpse into what Fernando is calling for publicly (i.e. support for Felipe) and behind closed doors.

Let's be honest; Alonso's win wouldn't have looked so brilliant had Felipe finished right behind him, would it?

[Quiet One]

dribbler, on 29 March 2012 - 09:30 AM, said:

I have to say, I admire Ferrari's take on supporting Massa through this tough time. There is a lot of blood baiting from fans, forums and the press at large and the Maranello of old would have kicked Felipe out. But he must be trying very hard indeed. There must be tangible struggles the team can see that he is trying to overcome. I also suspect dear Rob will be banging the drum as loud as he can. Heartening for Felipe that LDM asked for a round of applause back at the factory to show support for him.

I'm sure this is Massa's last year dressed in red. But if and when he goes, it will be a good thing that Ferrari didn't act irrationally. This speaks volumes about how they are trying to react generally. It may also give a glimpse into what Fernando is calling for publicly (i.e. support for Felipe) and behind closed doors.

Let's be honest; Alonso's win wouldn't have looked so brilliant had Felipe finished right behind him, would it?

Although my vision on all this over protecting of Massa is more cynical than yours, I still agree that it is still impressive how much Ferrari gave to Massa in the past couple of years, considering how little Felipinho was able to give back. Any team, nazi or ally, would have kicked his driver for much less, accident or not. "Look, pal, it was a horrific accident, so sorry. We love you and always will. Now GTFO, we need somebody who can at  least convincingly beat the Caterhams". That would have been said by his own father, if his father owned the  team, and as back as 2010, if the Caterhams weren't named Virgin Branson Mega Funded Super Technologically Marvel F1 by then.

As for Alonso, I doubt there is any love between him and Felipe. But even if Nando was unforgiving enough to be still mad at Monza's penalty in 2006 (I doubt it very much but somebody, some time will bring that up) or if Massa's personality is brittle enough to be crushed beyond repair since Germany 2010 (ditto) it is still uncomprehensible that he has any actual primadonna reason to prefer Massa over any other driver he could get along better, who will  be willing not to overshadow him and still do more for the team than Massa (Trulli and Fisico, first oon that list...Sh#t, even Liuzzi would be a better option!)

[Rainmaster]

dribbler, on 29 March 2012 - 09:30 AM, said:

I have to say, I admire Ferrari's take on supporting Massa through this tough time. There is a lot of blood baiting from fans, forums and the press at large and the Maranello of old would have kicked Felipe out. But he must be trying very hard indeed. There must be tangible struggles the team can see that he is trying to overcome. I also suspect dear Rob will be banging the drum as loud as he can. Heartening for Felipe that LDM asked for a round of applause back at the factory to show support for him.

I'm sure this is Massa's last year dressed in red. But if and when he goes, it will be a good thing that Ferrari didn't act irrationally. This speaks volumes about how they are trying to react generally. It may also give a glimpse into what Fernando is calling for publicly (i.e. support for Felipe) and behind closed doors.

Let's be honest; Alonso's win wouldn't have looked so brilliant had Felipe finished right behind him, would it?

It could be argued that by not getting rid of him this year, or even having him even in their car at all after last year, is irrational. I'm sure Rob Semdley still has a great relationship with Massa but we know from the camera cutting to the pit-wall that he is disappointed with Massa's driving, with all those shakes of the head.

As for Perez I'd say he's not ready for a top team just yet, he's still a rookie after all and the mistake on Sunday showed that. As much as Ferrari's second car should not be a mobile retirement home (Massa), it is not a driving school either, and the Mexican Marvel (as he shall forever be known) has much to learn. The pressure at Ferrari is worse than anywhere else, and with the difficulty of a mid-season change for any driver, that could be a disaster for his career. So I think there are good practical reasons that going too soon would not be wise. Obviously, there is always the possibility he'd rise to it, but the odds would be stacked against him. If it came up, I'm sure he'd have to take it, but I hope it doesn't.

[AleHop]

I think Sauber is a much better place for Pérez ATM. The problem is in the red team and they have to solve it on their own.

The season looks good for the Mexican in Sauber and could be frustrating and disappointing in Ferrari. Let's see what happens with the F2012 in China, Bahrain and Spain. If Ferrari are still in trouble by then it's game over no matter who is driving the cars.

[Piotr]

Now I KNOW all of you guys are on drugs, or crazy. Ferrari did not offer Kubica a seat for 4 years, but will offer one to Perez after ONE podium????

Edited by Piotr, 30 March 2012 - 01:50 AM.

[Quiet One]

Piotr, on 30 March 2012 - 01:49 AM, said:

Now I KNOW all of you guys are on drugs, or crazy. Ferrari did not offer Kubica a seat for 4 years, but will offer one to Perez after ONE podium????

Maybe because Ferrari has a bias towards drivers with four functional limbs, those racists.

[Piotr]

Quiet One, on 30 March 2012 - 02:41 AM, said:

Maybe because Ferrari has a bias towards drivers with four functional limbs, those racists.

I see you conveniently forgot about 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009, and 2010. Of course, we'd rather forget 2007, and 2006 was really only 1/2 season. a triffle compared to one podium finish.

[Quiet One]

Piotr, on 30 March 2012 - 02:51 AM, said:

I see you conveniently forgot about 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009, and 2010. Of course, we'd rather forget 2007, and 2006 was really only 1/2 season. a triffle compared to one podium finish.

Like you said, I conveniently forgot about those.Otherwise, the joke wouldn't have worked