276 replies to this topic

[BradSpeedMan]

Quiet One, on 29 September 2012 - 09:29 PM, said:

It'll be easy to tell them aprt. The guy in ahead is Lewis.

heheheheheheheheh

[BradSpeedMan]

ok, so the next q is... Is Perez really the man for the job? Has he shown enough, cause I really think he has actaully lucked into podium positions due to the Sauber being gentle on it's tyres and him running one-stop strategies? Who would u guys actually want partnering Button, cause I don't think this pairing is strong enough...

To me it seems a really quick decision on the part of Mclaren, did they choose wise enough?

[Quiet One]

BradSpeedMan, on 29 September 2012 - 10:44 PM, said:

ok, so the next q is... Is Perez really the man for the job? Has he shown enough, cause I really think he has actaully lucked into podium positions due to the Sauber being gentle on it's tyres and him running one-stop strategies? Who would u guys actually want partnering Button, cause I don't think this pairing is strong enough...

To me it seems a really quick decision on the part of Mclaren, did they choose wise enough?

Well, as per MW retell of the story, they only found this week that Lewis had effectively signed for Merc so they wwent straight for Perez which they were closely monitoring in the past races (as I bet many teams did).

But you have a point there, why the rush to have somebody signed in? The psychological factor of having Lewis replaced as soon as the guy announced his move is, at best,a short-term effect. A multi year contract for a driver is a strategic decision. McLaren is one of the teams that could comfortably wait for drivers to rush knocking to their door.

We all know Perez is talented, but yet unproved in so many aspects. Maybe they saw the other aspects we still didn't. Personally, I would have chosen Maldonado. Some grooming á la McLaren (hair cut, proper PR handling, non-nonsense approach) and you would have a young Hammy again. Of, course, that is if you can tame the beast.

If it's about techincal knowledge, I would have waited and tried to lure away Rosberg. I bet he wouldn't have minded trying to find a way out of his multi year contract at Merc now that they have yet another top driver, paid more than 60% above what he earns "but he will be no number one, no no no, so help me George". Facing the fate of becoming the next Massa, McLaren would have been a a great move ahead.

And then you have boring DiResta, for the delight of millions of Brits, but he would have brought nothing that Perez cannot bring except his nationality. And, frankly,  the idea of all German, all British teams is one of  the most idiotic marketing ideas ever. They need a guy that can win titles and races, not a guy that knows God save the Queen.

[Massa]

The right guys for the job were all signed.  Pérez gets better results than expected.  McLaren gets worse results than expected.  Maybe Pérez can offset a weakness.

Or maybe he's just a fluke with the perfect chassis for him by chance.

I think post-Hamilton, it was time to take the safe choice, which was the guy who is getting on the podium in a Sauber from time-to-time.  He looks pretty steady and maybe similar to Button in what he wants from the chassis.

Long way of saying, if I could have had anyone, I'd get down on my knees and beg Räikkönen to come back home.  But since I couldn't, I'll be confident enough that Button and Pérez can deliver a WCC given the best car.  I don't know if either can deliver a WDC (again, in Button's case), but if I'm the team, I guess I don't really care.

[KoolMonkey]

McLaren should have waited to see who they could have snapped up. Even in a worst case scenario they could have easily gotten Kovi back. Perez looks to be a solid up and coming driver to me, but it feels like a poorly thought out rebound relationship. I think there would have been plenty of drivers keen to get a McLaren drive even if it meant breaking a contract to do so. Maybe they saw something in Perez long term.

Quiet One, McLaren hiring Maldanado?? Are you actually being serious? Any driver who intentially crashes into another driver has no part in the modern era of F1.

[BradSpeedMan]

Massa, on 30 September 2012 - 12:32 AM, said:

Long way of saying, if I could have had anyone, I'd get down on my knees and beg Räikkönen to come back home. But since I couldn't, I'll be confident enough that Button and Pérez can deliver a WCC given the best car.  I don't know if either can deliver a WDC (again, in Button's case), but if I'm the team, I guess I don't really care.

That's the problem I find with the Martin Whitmarsh management,... the driver choices, they could have grabbed him when he ended or got dropped by Ferrari....or maybe they are just p**sed off that he left them for Ferrari.

[BradSpeedMan]

KoolMonkey, on 30 September 2012 - 06:38 AM, said:

Quiet One, McLaren hiring Maldanado?? Are you actually being serious? Any driver who intentially crashes into another driver has no part in the modern era of F1.

KM, I actually second Maldo and think that's a good idea too, if they could, as Andres says...tame the beast.... The guy is a race winner, something Mclaren needs in the other Mclaren, and besides getting too hot-headed at times seems to be quite capable. Maldonado also seems to be on a steep learning curve, but he's also up there amongts the frontrunners way too often, which is really a good thing...

[Jean Todt]

Bold move by Lewis. Time will tell if it works....as one board meeting is enough for Merc to pull out of F1.....
wise move by Mclaren to replace Lewis with Perez. I think his driving style is close to Button's. Everyone says that the Sauber has been gentle on tyres, but they needed a driver like Perez to prove it because with Koba, they didn't get the desired results so far. But i do think that the Sauber had the potential to win few races this year....there are few more races up for the grab....

[Insider]

Massa, on 30 September 2012 - 12:32 AM, said:

The right guys for the job were all signed.  Pérez gets better results than expected.  McLaren gets worse results than expected.  Maybe Pérez can offset a weakness.

Or maybe he's just a fluke with the perfect chassis for him by chance.

I think post-Hamilton, it was time to take the safe choice, which was the guy who is getting on the podium in a Sauber from time-to-time.  He looks pretty steady and maybe similar to Button in what he wants from the chassis.

Long way of saying, if I could have had anyone, I'd get down on my knees and beg Räikkönen to come back home.  But since I couldn't, I'll be confident enough that Button and Pérez can deliver a WCC given the best car.  I don't know if either can deliver a WDC (again, in Button's case), but if I'm the team, I guess I don't really care.

I personally think it was the wrong choice. Woking didn't need to sign anyone until the close season. It was a pre-emptive strike designed to build a march on mercedes thunder - and seriously flawed IMHO. Sure, Perez can charge but he's still learning his race craft and I believe they should have blooded young Turvey or Magnussen instead. What's the point of a young driver programme if not for a situation like this? I'd have considered putting Paffett in the car for 2013 and watch how the dominoes fell with regard to Vettel, Kimi et al. What does any one think about Di Resta? He was the bookies favourite. next season will be on JB's shoulders to a great degree and hopefully, Sergio's one-lap pace will keep Mclaren competitive and Jenson on his toes.

[Quiet One]

KoolMonkey, on 30 September 2012 - 06:38 AM, said:

McLaren should have waited to see who they could have snapped up. Even in a worst case scenario they could have easily gotten Kovi back. Perez looks to be a solid up and coming driver to me, but it feels like a poorly thought out rebound relationship. I think there would have been plenty of drivers keen to get a McLaren drive even if it meant breaking a contract to do so. Maybe they saw something in Perez long term.

Quiet One, McLaren hiring Maldanado?? Are you actually being serious? Any driver who intentially crashes into another driver has no part in the modern era of F1.

As  Brad says.

Don't get me wrong, I am as impressed as anybody else with Perez. I am just saying who I would have picked if in a rush. With more time in my hands, options would have been greate, as Sean pointed out. My main point was that Mclaren didn't seem to have to rush. Even if Perez is as good as we all think he is, waiting until end of season wouldn't have hurt, unless there were other teams closer to a deal. As most negotiations are behind the scenes and we know nothing about them, it becomes difficult to asess

As for the part in bold...unless by "modern era" you mean this season, that would leave us with a rather poor crop of drivers with no Prosts, Sennas, Schumis... Come to think of it, it is rather sad that the best drivers were the ones that did the worst thing you can do to another driver on track...

[KoolMonkey]

I agree, McLaren had plenty of time to find a new driver until next season. As good as Perez is, there are plenty on the grid who are probably just as good.

By modern era I mean just that. So no Prosts, Sennas or Schumi 1.0s. I don't hide my dissatisfaction with Hamilton, but seeing Maldonado crash into him on purpose at Spa last year was intolerable. He's done that sort of thing twice now. I know he's a lot better now, but unless this bum grew up in the favellas and squats and just doesn't know how to act, that shows to me someone who cannot control either their emotions or anger. Put him behind an F1 car! oh yes a brilliant idea lol. McLaren don't need him or his oil money.

Add my voice to those that thought it would have been almost perfect to have Kimi go back to McLaren. Well it could still happen if he's around for quite a few more years yet. Right now however, Lotus need to get their s**t together. They are going backwards and all season long their pit strategies have been poor.

I'd be happy to see Schumi goto Ferrari and Massa to Sauber. I think Sauber has always been a good team for him. If that doesn't happen, I hope Sauber offer their seat to Schumi. I've hated Schumi with a passion for years, but since he came out of retirement, I've been rooting for the old guy. He deserved all the criticisms that came his way in his first career, but he's been clean in his comeback, and that's considering his crashes and race incidents.

Edited by KoolMonkey, 30 September 2012 - 01:57 PM.

[Rainmaster]

I think Perez is a good choice. I don't know if he is as strong in qualifying as Maldonado but he seems to have just as much potential in the races, and a better head on his shoulders. Even Williams seem more impressed by Bottas than by Maldonado, and since they have all the data (like Mclaren have analysed) maybe they know something we don't, unless they happened to have lucked into two top drivers. Granted, both PM and SP have a lot to learn and both could end up becoming top tier drivers, but I imagine both will at least become good second tier drivers. Maybe if Maldonado hadn't driven into Mclaren's cars more than once Mclaren would have signed him; there is a strong human element to these decisions

Besides, I am not sure what other choices Mclaren realistically had. Di Resta? A great professional and smart racer, but for some reason never seems that impressive, or at least not impressive in the way Maldonado or Perez have been. Unlike QO, I think his nationality and "corporate personality" could well be a disadvantage in that regard. That aside, I still don't think he has as much potential as Perez or Maldonado. Kovi? Mclaren have already been there and the results didn't come. Maybe he is better now but again, where is the excitement in signing someone who is at best going to be slightly slower than Button overall, and that's if he improved (and I am a big Heikki fan, but let's be realistic he isn't beating Button over a season). The other Finn? The first question is whether he would be interested in going back there, he seems happy enough at Lotus.

Edited by Rainmaster, 30 September 2012 - 06:09 PM.

[KoolMonkey]

I have seen Di Resta get some good results, but I honestly havn't been paying attention to know when, where or the details.

I think McLaren might have had a good shot at landing Rosberg. I'm sure by now he's at the end of being patient with regards to having a better car. Add his time at Williams and now Merc. Contracts are broken all the time. Just imagine him heading to McLaren. I think it would have been a perfect coup. But I can't get the thought out of my head McLaren grabbed Perez out of fear. He may be the best option out of the leftovers, but it's a McLaren seat, probably the second most desired team to race for after Ferrari. They could have gotten Schumi, Rosberg, Kimi, the list goes on.

I suspect if Ron was still around, they would have scored a better signature than Perez, and for me it would have been Rosberg.

[Insider]

KoolMonkey, on 01 October 2012 - 12:32 AM, said:

I have seen Di Resta get some good results, but I honestly havn't been paying attention to know when, where or the details.

I think McLaren might have had a good shot at landing Rosberg. I'm sure by now he's at the end of being patient with regards to having a better car. Add his time at Williams and now Merc. Contracts are broken all the time. Just imagine him heading to McLaren. I think it would have been a perfect coup. But I can't get the thought out of my head McLaren grabbed Perez out of fear. He may be the best option out of the leftovers, but it's a McLaren seat, probably the second most desired team to race for after Ferrari. They could have gotten Schumi, Rosberg, Kimi, the list goes on.

I suspect if Ron was still around, they would have scored a better signature than Perez, and for me it would have been Rosberg.

This was my point. Di Resta was considered it seems but McLaren are clearly looking at life after Vodafone and Telmex is a good fit. With the exception of the package Mad Donald brings to Williams, there is little else around.

[Rainmaster]

Rosberg over Perez? Not in a million years. Perez showed more in (less than) two years than Rosberg in his entire career.

As for Schumi? He was reportedly even Mercedes' third choice after Hamilton and..guess who..The Mexican Marvel, the Great Tyre Whisperer, Carlos Slim's favourite driver..Sergio Perez. It's almost like these teams know something we don't

[freaky2]

Hah, I think you're strangely passionate about Perez, George, probably because you've seen him race more than me. But anyway, I completely aggree.

McLaren already have one stable driver in Button, getting Rosberg would have been going too far... he hasn't impressed a lot (and personally, hasn't impressed me at all, but I'm weird) and I think Perez will bring McLaren more exciting racing and brighter future prospects. Not to mention that you can always sign Perez for a year but Rosberg would feel entitled to more just because of all that not-exciting experience he brings to the team.

[Massa]

I think I've seen that Pérez guy on the F1 podium before...maybe he was presenting the trophies or looking pretty in a Santander unitard or something...can't quite recall...

On top of that, you get the sheer fun of stealing a prospect from Ferrari.  You realize Ferrari's put so much into their Driver Academy and gotten nothing, absolutely nothing, out of it?

Mirko Bortolotti was a bust.  Jules Bianchi was a bust.  Sergio Pérez denied Ferrari WCC points and Alonso WDC points and Massa one last podium to round out his career before switching to their rival team.

It might not influence the decision, but someone at McLaren has to be grinning about it.  It had to cross someone's mind.

I can understand the Paul di Resta stuff, but who knows what kind of deal he wanted?  I'd still take Pérez on the same deal as di Resta, personally, but you can definitely argue di Resta's case.  You can't argue it if di Resta wanted a different term and different pay that didn't fit what McLaren wanted.

Both Pérez and di Resta have something going for them, and it's the same thing going against them...they're both beating their teammates, two guys who people highly touted as having "it."  So that's nice...but it also shows how easy those we say have "it" can really turn out to just be nothing.

Of course, if the competition wasn't so close (whether that's a product of the rules or a product of the teams all being very, very good), it wouldn't even matter who McLaren signed because in the past, they'd just build the best car and any good driver (and I consider Pérez to be at least good) could bring it home.  So I guess having this discussion means something good is happening in the sport in a weird way where drivers matter more because the cars still matter but everyone's finding ways to be competitive through them.

[The Shadow]

I don't get why people knock Perez. I know that a lot of pundits say that the Sauber is a potentially race winning car, but there is little evidence to suggest that it can win in most circumstances. Some qualifying sessions see it languishing in 14th and 17th places.

If someone like Perez can haul up his car from such adverse situations to grab podiums, that shows some manner of intelligence and maturity. It hardly gets noticed but he seems to always go on a different strategy to the others and if you look at where he comes out of pitstops, its mostly clear air where he runs his own pace, conserve tyres and keeps them green while the guys ahead of him are in the twilight of their tyre life due to constant line changes, flat spots, hard braking, etc. in their battles for lower points position.

Plus do not forget that he probably comes much much cheaper than Lewis. So even if he only gets 90% of the points that LH could have gotten in the same year (which is an achievable target now that he has a car that can perform at the front) I would still think of it as a coup for McLaren. Lewis is special, but so is Perez. And Perez, at 22 is only just at the start of his career.

I still doubt that Mercedes will be as good in 2014 as people are hoping. They have been saying that they will stop development and focus on next years' car since mid 2009 and they seem to move backwards every year. Either Button and Barichello were flat out amazing, or Mercedes have a philosophy of focussing on a gadget like Double diffuser or Double DRS too much and neglecting to build a decent, balanced and adaptable car for the different situations. Either way, it will be interesting to see how Lewis will take to Perez lapping him next year.

[Grabthaw the Hammerslayer]

Been watching F1 for too many years to know that teams' fortunes wax and wane. Remember all too well the pre-Schui dry period where Ferrari went for years without wins. Life being what it is there is no guarantee that McLaren will excel or that Mercedes will continue to under-perform.

Maldonado, I think has potential - when not punting people off the track he is blindingly fast and can drag an average car into a race winning situation. If he can control the red mist he could do well.

Perez seems to be regularly bunging in good drives. Whether he is of the same calibre as Hamilton is another matter. McLaren, I think have dropped a goolie there as their driver line up has been weakened.

Hey, why didn't McLaren offer Schui a 1 year drive? His swan song and might allow Schui to show some form in a half-decent car. Would generate lots of PR too!

[KoolMonkey]

Schumi to McLaren... if Ron was still around in a proper capacity, I could see that occuring. Whitmarsh reminds me of Fry. In fact is Fry even still around? Anyone I often get those two confused as they look similar and sound it too lol

So Schumi to McLaren isn't an option. I'd be stoked if he get Massa's seat. Ferrari are categorically nuts to keep giving this boob a seat year after year. I don't even blame his crash, but he doesn't have it anymore, and it might not even be Alonso's coddling either that's done it. I think he needs to sign with Sauber, Schumi to Ferrari and bring on 2013. But not before Kimi wins 2012 WDC! I wish ;( I know it won't happen but I'm happy he's back in F1.

[Quiet One]

The Shadow, on 02 October 2012 - 03:21 AM, said:

Lots of Shadowy talk

I think that there's a certain 'confusion in agreement' regarding Perez. I've yet to read a single person who thinks signing Perez was a bad decision becasue of Perez lack of skills. The question is not whether Perez seems like the next big thing or not, that is out of question. The question is: has McLaren signed the (right) guy  for the wrong reasons? SP looks impressive...until you realize that these are Lewis' shoes he has to fill. And then you start watching drivers under a complete different light. I would have never considereed Maldonado anything  but a comoic relief, but faced with the prospect of picking someone to replace Hammy I found myself pondering about Maldonado and that suprised me.

I guess it's just that I'm too insecure

KoolMonkey, on 02 October 2012 - 04:07 AM, said:

Lots of...errrr....Monkeyish talk

Pat Fry is currently at Ferrari, and it appears he is not doing a bad job there at all. I don't think Schui to McLaren has been seriously considered. McLaren was looking for a long term deal.

[LabradoRacer]

Pretty naive of Whitmarsh to hope that Hamilton won't give McLaren's data to Mercedes next year.

[Massa]

Of course Pérez won't be Hamilton!  No one would be.

But you don't have to be Hamilton to win the WCC for McLaren (something a Hamilton team never did) or the WDC (something Hamilton only did once).

Pérez is nowhere near as flat-out impressive as Hamilton when you watch him, and never was before F1, either.  Results count, though, not how impressive someone is.

I think Hamilton is a top talent.  I also think he wasn't delivering at McLaren and needed to go somewhere else to figure out how to translate talent into championships.

You don't have to be in the "chosen three or four" (Alonso, Hamilton, Vettel, Räikkönen) to win races and championships.  Just because Pérez hasn't been touted as the next 7-time World Champion, rising through the ranks and earning a top drive in his rookie season, does not mean his results will be better/worse than Hamilton's were at McLaren.  It depends a lot on the car McLaren construct, a lot on what the tires are like next year, etc.

I'll always take depth of a team over star power.  F1 teams are made up of skilled professionals who just so happen to be human.  Humans are crazy.  All sorts of things impact performance way beyond, and probably more significantly than, talent.  I think sometimes we all talk of F1 as some isolated environment where every factor independently contributes 100% of their ability and it all adds up to some cumulative total and the highest one wins.  It's not that simple and while resources are limiting, no question (i.e. HRT isn't going to be the right place for Hamilton to win his WDC), I don't know that the gap between a good team and a great team is so large as much as the great teams all operate at 100% and the good teams operate at 99% and in the context of F1 that's relatively huge.  Replace teams with drivers and I suspect it's the same thing.  That's not based on anything rational; it just feels that way to me.

Regardless, my main point is, Pérez is not Hamilton, but why would McLaren want another Hamilton, when they've been without WCCs and WDCs in his era?  What Pérez can offer that particular team that Hamilton did not might be the particularized need of that team to get back to winning season titles and there are millions of different areas where he could have an impact beyond just "he's not as talented."

[KoolMonkey]

Quiet One, on 02 October 2012 - 12:00 PM, said:

Pat Fry is currently at Ferrari, and it appears he is not doing a bad job there at all. I don't think Schui to McLaren has been seriously considered. McLaren was looking for a long term deal.

I was referring to Nick Fry from BAR/Honda. Even still if Ron was around and Schumi was up for it, I could have seen a 2 year deal happening.

[Quiet One]

KoolMonkey, on 02 October 2012 - 02:28 PM, said:

I was referring to Nick Fry from BAR/Honda. Even still if Ron was around and Schumi was up for it, I could have seen a 2 year deal happening.

I found it odd that you asked for Pat Fry in first place!

I forgot about Nick! Which is logical, considering  that his creepy smile traumatized me so much over the years.
I think he is still somewhere up there lurking in the upper echelons of Mercedes. He will probably join forces with Nikki Lauda and go around the Merc headquarters at Halloween scarying people away: "Everybody run! Here come Nikki and Nick!!!" "AHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH"

[Rainmaster]

First of all, I'm glad to see you're an RPS reader dear Andres.

Now, I think everybody made some good points since my last post here. All I can say is that I don't think you can look at it as trying to replace Hamilton. At the end of the day, Hamilton's, Vettel's and Alonso's don't come around all that often. In the event of your top driver leaving, all you can do is look around to who you think is the strongest available candidate. Now, us fans may disagree on the merits of Perez versus Maldonado/Kovi/Schumi/, but clearly Mclaren (and apparently Mercedes too) considered Perez the best available option after Lewis Hamilton. That doesn't mean he is a better prospect than those other drivers (only time will tell), it could just mean he was available and others weren't (unlikely since this is a top seat but - Maldonado may be tied to Williams, Schumi might be retiring, blah blah), it just means they think he was the best option based on everything they know.

[Quiet One]

Rainmaster, on 02 October 2012 - 09:10 PM, said:

First of all, I'm glad to see you're an RPS reader dear Andres.

Marry me

[Insider]

LabradoRacer, on 02 October 2012 - 12:57 PM, said:

Pretty naive of Whitmarsh to hope that Hamilton won't give McLaren's data to Mercedes next year.

I agree with that. McLaren would find it nigh on impossible to prove that he had breached any confidentiality clause he may sign anyway. These are unusual time where an extra tenth is worth more than gold. If he doesn't win the next couple of races, I'd put Paffett in the car and send Lewis home. Ken Tyrell would have.

[KoolMonkey]

Yeah I agree, once it becomes impossible mathematically for Lewis to win the WDC, they should put him on gardening leave. If he can't be trusted while in the team like tweeting the telemetry of his car, then you think he's going to keep his word and not pass on what he knows to Merc?

[Quiet One]

Judging from Lewis fame at technical knowledge, you should expect HRT taking the fight up to the Maccas with whatever secrets De La Rosa took with him than the Mercs with whatever Hamilton can give them.

Honestly, who believes they could learn anything from Lewis that they cannot learn merely via Merc engineers on the engine team, pit crew friendly chat or merely by watching the cars rendering at each "Tooned" episode?