105 replies to this topic

[AleHop]

[Massa]

Both interesting and irrelevant.  Good find.

Vettel was 19.2 seconds ahead of Vergne.  Even with a penalty, he would have finished P7 and won the title based on time (obviously, based on circumstances, things change).

But it doesn't matter.  He won within the rules as they were enforced.  I see the point; it's inconsistent and it's really frustrating to have rules controversies all the time.  It makes you wonder how many times per year they miss these things.

At the same time, that's part of it.  We all have our own personal lists of legitimate ways to win and lose, which range all over the place and few include "benefitted from a good break here or there," but that's part of how every championship in every sport is won, and it's not as if the FIA weren't making rules specifically against Red Bull this season.

I'm satisfied with the outcome as legitimate.  Tires, mechanical failure, rain, strategy calls, DRS, stewards...you just have to be the best in whatever conditions are out there, and the conditions include all those.

What does surprise me is that the FIA doesn't have any way of tracking this automatically.  Seems to me that if they can send the signal to activate the yellow lights on the dash, they can track when that's on and what a car is doing...

[AleHop]

Very risky to comment on an internet vid but would be big mistake by the stewards if they didn't realise it was overtaking under yellow flags. As you say there should be a clear way of dealing with things like that. They have all kind of GPS, transponders, etc on the cars and track so it wouldn't be too difficult to have it machine controlled. I agree with you about the outcome being legitimate but you have to deal with all those conditions you mentioned and at the same time you have to deal with yellow flags accordingly.

[HandyNZL]

Pass number one is enacted BEFORE the yellow.  He is past before the timing line on the circuit which is prior to the marshal point.  Fair pass and within the rules.

Can't fairly deduce on the pass at around the 6min mark on this video if Vettel has just come out of a green zone...so this can be construed unfairly on Vettel.  In any event, the light system is flashing amber for a yellow, constant yellow and red (the red gets drowned out on video) for debris on track signal, and a constant display of SC and amber border when the safety car is out.  Other lights are blue for faster car approaching you, and white if you are approaching something on track that will seriously impede you, eg, a rescue car, or very slow moving McLaren on three wheels.

Third pass, at 8:10'ish the dude talking says "you can see the green flashing point" and wrongly surmises that you are not allowed to pass until you pass this station.  This is incorrect.

Yellow flag rules state that you MAY pass after the incident IF the track is clear in front of you AND if you can see the next marshal point and a green flag.  You do NOT have to wait until you actually get to the green flag marshal.  This is the same rule in ALL categories of motorsport.

So that pass is fully legit.

The next light he picks out is at 8:28ish...and states "steady yellow light"...again, this isn't only yellow...it has red stripes...it's a debris flag.  So again a legit overtake.

At 11:09 he can see the green marshal so he is allowed to pass....the driver DOES NOT race to the lights on his dashboard.  This is because the lights on his dash board can FAIL.  Drivers race to the FLAG being hung out by the marshal.  And this flag is GREEN, he is past the incident, has clear track ahead of him, he CAN overtake.

(FYI for the newbies here...that lil car in my avatar is my race car, and if there is one thing you MUST know when racing, and indeed before they even let you race, is the flag procedures).

SO all in all....Vettel did nothing wrong.  He raced to the flags.  As everyone else does, and no likely did.

So stuff that up your conspiracy theory

[Grabthaw the Hammerslayer]

HandyNZL, on 28 November 2012 - 05:20 AM, said:

(FYI for the newbies here...that lil car in my avatar is my race car, and if there is one thing you MUST know when racing, and indeed before they even let you race, is the flag procedures).

It's not a two seater, so where do you fit the sheep?

[HandyNZL]

He is leashed on to the back, off the transaxle mounts...

Tell you what, on the straights he has to run pretty bloody fast....

[Grabthaw the Hammerslayer]

HandyNZL, on 28 November 2012 - 05:27 AM, said:

he has to run pretty bloody fast....

I thought the sheep only had to do that after the post-race party

[maure]

Alonso is not British so let's just dismiss the whole thing with a joke... let's see... the cruel death of thousands of Japanese was used as comedy relief once around here while the likes of dribbler(?) yelled hurrays... I can't think of anything else so I hope the memory of that "great" moment at TF1 cheers your day and let's continue to fvck the rulebook with a crane when it is convenient.

[BradSpeedMan]

HandyNZL, on 28 November 2012 - 05:20 AM, said:

Pass number one is enacted BEFORE the yellow.  He is past before the timing line on the circuit which is prior to the marshal point.  Fair pass and within the rules.

Can't fairly deduce on the pass at around the 6min mark on this video if Vettel has just come out of a green zone...so this can be construed unfairly on Vettel.  In any event, the light system is flashing amber for a yellow, constant yellow and red (the red gets drowned out on video) for debris on track signal, and a constant display of SC and amber border when the safety car is out.  Other lights are blue for faster car approaching you, and white if you are approaching something on track that will seriously impede you, eg, a rescue car, or very slow moving McLaren on three wheels.

Third pass, at 8:10'ish the dude talking says "you can see the green flashing point" and wrongly surmises that you are not allowed to pass until you pass this station.  This is incorrect.

Yellow flag rules state that you MAY pass after the incident IF the track is clear in front of you AND if you can see the next marshal point and a green flag.  You do NOT have to wait until you actually get to the green flag marshal.  This is the same rule in ALL categories of motorsport.

So that pass is fully legit.

The next light he picks out is at 8:28ish...and states "steady yellow light"...again, this isn't only yellow...it has red stripes...it's a debris flag.  So again a legit overtake.

At 11:09 he can see the green marshal so he is allowed to pass....the driver DOES NOT race to the lights on his dashboard.  This is because the lights on his dash board can FAIL.  Drivers race to the FLAG being hung out by the marshal.  And this flag is GREEN, he is past the incident, has clear track ahead of him, he CAN overtake.

(FYI for the newbies here...that lil car in my avatar is my race car, and if there is one thing you MUST know when racing, and indeed before they even let you race, is the flag procedures).

SO all in all....Vettel did nothing wrong.  He raced to the flags.  As everyone else does, and no likely did.

So stuff that up your conspiracy theory

In short, and let's be quite frank about this folks Im sure Craig will agree with me on this...that guy is talking out of his a##!

[AleHop]

HandyNZL, on 28 November 2012 - 05:20 AM, said:

Pass number...

There are now many comments from F1 people, from journalists to former drivers, about passing under yellow flags and none of them agree with you. If I believe what they say there's no choice for a driver to say oh, I saw the track was clear ahead so I overtook that guy in front under yellow flags. If you do you are in most cases going to visit the stewards after the race to explain what happened. You don't have to believe what I say, you can just see what people with real knowledge on F1 have said in the past few days since they started talking about Vettel passing Kobayashi under yellow flags that were in fact solid yellow and not really yellow flags so that one was a legit pass.

That guy knows what he's talking about pretty well.

[JHS18]

I'm getting really, really, really tired of these "Vettel undertook under yellow flag" conspiracies.

This has already been disproved.

Green flag:
http://i.minus.com/ifCeF4LzTDLqY.gif
http://i49.tinypic.com/212bl1c.jpg
http://i49.tinypic.com/9rkupl.jpg

Clear that the accident is behind him, and that the overtake was legal.

As I've said elsewhere already - sorry guys, but armchair race stewarding isn't going to achieve anything. The FIA have plenty more data and camera angles than we ever get, and if there was anything in it, would have investigated and if necessary would have taken action. There isn't anything to it, so they didn't. End of.

It follows the "Vettel passed Kobayashi under yellow!!!!!!!!11111" conspiracy theorists, when in fact the FIA confirmed he passed him under a slippery surface yellow/red flag.

[AleHop]

JHS18, on 28 November 2012 - 07:32 AM, said:

The FIA have plenty more data and camera angles than we ever get, and if there was anything in it, would have investigated and if necessary would have taken action.

I agree they have more data than a simple internet vid. That's why I said i) it was risky commenting on it and ii) would be a big mistake by the stewards. HandyNZL post is completely wrong if we believe what real experts have said about yellow flags procedure these days. I agree there could be a green flag somewhere before Vettel's pass that can't be seen on that vid but that would be different to HandyNZL analysis.

This is not a conspiracy theory. This is a controversy, if it's backed up by facts or it isn't is what we can discuss on a forum. Else you can say my mind is made up, don't confuse me with facts.

[HandyNZL]

AleHop, on 28 November 2012 - 06:50 AM, said:

There are now many comments from F1 people, from journalists to former drivers, about passing under yellow flags and none of them agree with you. If I believe what they say there's no choice for a driver to say oh, I saw the track was clear ahead so I overtook that guy in front under yellow flags. If you do you are in most cases going to visit the stewards after the race to explain what happened. You don't have to believe what I say, you can just see what people with real knowledge on F1 have said in the past few days since they started talking about Vettel passing Kobayashi under yellow flags that were in fact solid yellow and not really yellow flags so that one was a legit pass.

That guy knows what he's talking about pretty well.

Well then, perhaps they would like to be referred to page 18, Clause (3), paragraph ©, of the FIA ratified Motorsport NZ Manual here

You'll find the same rules with MSA, CAMS, etc etc...

Re the bold bit, even a legally insane person knows what he's talking about pretty well.

All in all though, build a bridge, and enjoy your festive season, and count down the weeks until winter testing, yeah?

[AleHop]

HandyNZL, on 28 November 2012 - 08:16 AM, said:

All in all though, build a bridge, and enjoy your festive season, and count down the weeks until winter testing, yeah?

No problem.

You stop pretending you know what you don't know and admit when you're wrong. Will you?

[pabloh20]

HandyNZL, on 28 November 2012 - 08:16 AM, said:

Well then, perhaps they would like to be referred to page 18, Clause (3), paragraph ©, of the FIA ratified Motorsport NZ Manual here

You'll find the same rules with MSA, CAMS, etc etc...

Re the bold bit, even a legally insane person knows what he's talking about pretty well.

All in all though, build a bridge, and enjoy your festive season, and count down the weeks until winter testing, yeah?

Although I agree with the outcome regarding Vettel and the flags, the F1 rules do not make the distinction of the 'passed the incident' of the NZ regulations you quote, as seen here -

http://www.formula1....sport/5282.html

Yellow flag
Indicates danger, such as a stranded car, ahead. A single waved yellow flag warns drivers to slow down, while two waved yellow flags at the same post means that drivers must slow down and be prepared to stop if necessary. Overtaking is prohibited.

Green flag
All clear. The driver has passed the potential danger point and prohibitions imposed by yellow flags have been lifted.

I have had a quick look through the F1 regulations and I can't find anything that says overtaking is allowed after the incident has been passed, unless I am missing it.  Kay used to be so good at finding these rules

Again, I am not arguing with the outcome, as I stated in another thread, the sequence of lights around that time seemed to be a tad erratic.

[BradSpeedMan]

AleHop, on 28 November 2012 - 06:50 AM, said:

There are now many comments from F1 people, from journalists to former drivers, about passing under yellow flags and none of them agree with you.

Please do me the honour to find those quotes from the reputable journalists and former drivers and please paste it in there, cause simply I don't have the bloody time to look it up... please do this effort for me, your fellow F1 enthusiast.

I'm asking you this because nowhere have I read it but coming from disgruntled Alonso fans

[BradSpeedMan]

I've pasted a link from a reputable F1 resources www.pitpass.com....http://www.pitpass.com/48069-Yellow-flag-claim-dismissed... I've looked this up in less than 5 minutes because I'm at work.

If we THAT arrogant and ignorant to pretend to know better that the teams and stewards who has more resources for us then I really don't know what would happen to our fav sport. It will at most be a circus.

[AleHop]

BradSpeedMan, on 28 November 2012 - 10:21 AM, said:

Please do me the honour to find those quotes from the reputable journalists and former drivers and please paste it in there, cause simply I don't have the bloody time to look it up... please do this effort for me, your fellow F1 enthusiast.

I'm asking you this because nowhere have I read it but coming from disgruntled Alonso fans

See Pabloh's post above on the matter. He's spot on from start to finish. You don't need more expertise than his on how yellow and green flags work in F1.

[ipaneda]

Massa, on 28 November 2012 - 01:10 AM, said:

Both interesting and irrelevant.  Good find.

Vettel was 19.2 seconds ahead of Vergne.  Even with a penalty, he would have finished P7 and won the title based on time (obviously, based on circumstances, things change).

You seem to have forgotten something: Schumacher was in between Vettel and Vergne, so a penalty of 20s results in P8 for Vettel, and the tittle would go to Alonso by one point.

[AleHop]

pabloh20, on 28 November 2012 - 10:02 AM, said:

Again, I am not arguing with the outcome, as I stated in another thread, the sequence of lights around that time seemed to be a tad erratic.

It is yeah. I guess it is not that bad for drivers and stewards but it's a bi of a mess watching it on TV.

[AleHop]

ipaneda, on 28 November 2012 - 10:53 AM, said:

You seem to have forgotten something: Schumacher was in between Vettel and Vergne, so a penalty of 20s results in P8 for Vettel, and the tittle would go to Alonso by one point.

OMG!!!

[BradSpeedMan]

AleHop, on 28 November 2012 - 10:45 AM, said:

See Pabloh's post above on the matter. He's spot on from start to finish. You don't need more expertise than his on how yellow and green flags work in F1.

Because it supports your view, who is Paul anyway, bloody armchair expert.  

Please read this, especially the last paragraph, and let's move on from this, as the guy stipulates in the last sentence...No more use for this thread

http://www.totalf1.c...take_explained/


Sad affair that your don't want to paste those quotes in here....

[pabloh20]

BradSpeedMan, on 28 November 2012 - 10:31 AM, said:

I've pasted a link from a reputable F1 resources www.pitpass.com....http://www.pitpass.com/48069-Yellow-flag-claim-dismissed... I've looked this up in less than 5 minutes because I'm at work.

If we THAT arrogant and ignorant to pretend to know better that the teams and stewards who has more resources for us then I really don't know what would happen to our fav sport. It will at most be a circus.

Bradley my boy, calling all the FIA and stewards wrong and telling them that we know better has been the staple diet of this forum for years.  I bet I could even find some of your posts claiming the same thing if I bothered to have a look

By the way, I am not claiming anything, only that this was the sequence of flags shown on Sky (I posted this in another thread) prior and during the overtake on Kamui -

There was a red and yellow striped flag with a yellow flag indicator next to it at one point on the track, can't remember where it was (this must have been the indicator that Pat Fry was talking about).  Then there was another yellow flag as they went further on.  Then there was a green flag indicated, Vettel had still not passed at this point, but was very close.  Then the next flag after the green flag was a yellow and Seb had not completed the pass before he got to this yellow flag (but was already in the process of overtaking)

Now, I don't know exactly how the red/yellow striped flag for warning of slippery conditions, oil on track or whatever, works, but presumably if you get a green flag, I would have thought that was the end of the red/yellow conditions?  Craig may be able to explain more on that one.

The thing is, to have a sequence of red/yellow, yellow, green and then yellow does not seem right to me, unless the last yellow was for an incident that had just occurred, but I don't remember them saying anything about that.  Of course, as Craig says, the red/yellow flash does not seem to come through on TV and that last yellow may have been a red/yellow again (or indeed all of the yellows in that sequence).  I am sure Ferrari would have investigated this, though.

[pabloh20]

BradSpeedMan, on 28 November 2012 - 11:07 AM, said:

Because it supports your view, who is Paul anyway, bloody armchair expert.  

Please read this, especially the last paragraph, and let's move on from this, as the guy stipulates in the last sentence...No more use for this thread

http://www.totalf1.c...take_explained/


Sad affair that your don't want to paste those quotes in here....

It is true, I know a hell of a lot about armchairs.  Nothing about F1, but armchairs I am the bees knees.

The link you have above is incorrect in what he says, by the way, Brad, whoever it is.  The sequence of flags I have in my post above was shown after the race with Alan McNish going through it, not the one that Brundle & Crofty talked about live.

Edit:  Sorry, he is not incorrect in what he says as such, except that he says the light at turn 14 was a mystery light, but he had already said it was a green light.  I think he means the flag after the green flag, but I am not entirely sure

Edited by pabloh20, 28 November 2012 - 11:37 AM.

[Rainmaster]

The only two posts you need in this thread to disprove this particular theory is Alehop's first post and James'. I believe the posted video correctly interprets the flag procedure. The video clearly shows that 1) the pass on the HRT was legal, 2) the pass on the Sauber of Kobayashi was legal. No question about either of those, and Ferrari even confirmed as much for the Sauber pass.

As for the Vergne pass, the one which people weren't aware of, obviously it would be illegal if it happened before a green flag zone (according to the video's interpretation of the flags, which is different to Handy's). I think here we can look at the evidence that James helpfully posted and seems to suggest that a green flag zone starts out of turn 3. You can't see it on the video so I don't blame the guy for missing it.

[AleHop]

BradSpeedMan, on 28 November 2012 - 11:07 AM, said:

Because it supports your view, who is Paul anyway, bloody armchair expert.  

Please read this, especially the last paragraph, and let's move on from this, as the guy stipulates in the last sentence...No more use for this thread

http://www.totalf1.c...take_explained/


Sad affair that your don't want to paste those quotes in here....

Can you read the headline of that article for me?

HRT pass: legal, Sauber pass: legal, Toro Rosso pass: debatable!

James brought some pictures that might explain why Vettel was in the clear. SennaNZL brought some nonsense from other series that don't apply to F1. Pabloh was spot on about how Grern and Yellow flags work in F1.

I would paste those comments if you posted those others from disgruntled Alonso fans... Problem is that they come from TV, radio... No links available AFAIK.

[Grabthaw the Hammerslayer]

I don't know about you but with all of the above, I'm flagging somewhat

[pabloh20]

Rainmaster, on 28 November 2012 - 11:45 AM, said:

The only two posts you need in this thread to disprove this particular theory is Alehop's first post and James'. I believe the posted video correctly interprets the flag procedure. The video clearly shows that 1) the pass on the HRT was legal, 2) the pass on the Sauber of Kobayashi was legal. No question about either of those, and Ferrari even confirmed as much for the Sauber pass.

As for the Vergne pass, the one which people weren't aware of, obviously it would be illegal if it happened before a green flag zone (according to the video's interpretation of the flags, which is different to Handy's). I think here we can look at the evidence that James helpfully posted and seems to suggest that a green flag zone starts out of turn 3. You can't see it on the video so I don't blame the guy for missing it.

What do James' links say?  Sorry, I am not being funny, they are blocked on the network I am on

Edit:  Seeing as Grabbie is on I will add that I am not on a jail network, before he even thinks about saying anything remotely reptitive

Edited by pabloh20, 28 November 2012 - 11:52 AM.

[Grabthaw the Hammerslayer]

pabloh20, on 28 November 2012 - 11:49 AM, said:

Edit:  Seeing as Grabbie is on I will add that it inot a jail network I am on, before he even thinks about saying anything remotely reptitive

Ah crap you got there before I could

Obviously you are out on day release for good behaviour - how is the tag?

[pabloh20]

Grabthaw the Hammerslayer, on 28 November 2012 - 11:53 AM, said:

Ah crap you got there before I could

Obviously you are out on day release for good behaviour - how is the tag?

The same as yours, I would presume??  Or do sex offenders get different tags to us lowly thieves?