Vettel Passing Str Under Yellow Flags

[AleHop 0]

Err... Brad.... I am no fan of Alonso. It's certainly true I admire his ability, but I'm in the Hamilton camp..

And calling a driver a "greedy mongrel" over just one issue, does not show any degree of objectivity. "Power-hungry" .... I'd challenge you to find any racing driver with some modicum of success without that affinity. If given the avenue, most people would be power hungry, would they not?

You are a disgruntled Alonso fan.

[BradSpeedMan 6]

I don't know whether I believe Alonso is actually doing that, Bradman. To be honest, I find it hard to believe that from my position of having an internet connection, I would be able to find out more about this than Ferrari would. I know Ferrari sent a letter to the FIA last night asking for 'clarification', but I can only imagine the most likely scenario is that they already had all the relevant information available to them (because I did), and it was simply a political, mud slinging sort of move (as Paul suggested). I don't think that's the kind of thing Alonso is in a position to push through. I could be wrong, though. Of course, it's also possible Ferrari did want clarification and simply didn't have all the facts, which is a little worrying from a competence POV but would at least make their position less political/unsporting on this one, and would make Alonso's involvement much more likely and reasonable.

Happily, the FIA have clarified this today saying there's no case to answer. The FIA said http://www.autosport...t.php/id/104644

Autosport explains the pass and the flag/lights rules: http://www.autosport...t.php/id/104645

Ecclestone said: http://www.autosport...t.php/id/104650

Best of all goes to Sniff Petrol, though: http://sniffpetrol.c...enge-christmas/

Base on threatening your team principal with incremental evidence to further your position in the team, I can believe it from a prima Donna like him

[BradSpeedMan 6]

Haven't seen Andres around lately...

[Rainmaster 7]

He was having some health problem, wasn't he? Hopefully the bald one is alright and returns soon. Maybe he's just heartbroken about Vettel winning the title

[dribbler 6]

oh really, its that easy??? ..... I feel the need to expose your favourite driver as the power-hungry greedy mongrel that he is, it is not over for me!

No one is mentioning that Ferrari were simply seeking clarification. That is not the same as putting a case forward. Also, having fought all year, if there was a chance that through clear cut evidence Vettel had in fact broken the rule, would you not suggest that Vettel's award should be over turned.

Why (apart from the most level headed) cannot see Ferrari's position for precisely what it is?

Put yourself in Alonso and/or Ferrari's position. Are you seriously suggesting you would not seek rule clarification?

Anyhoo, Vettel's deserved title still stands and this is now a non story. The only remaining issue is the petulant and spurious accusations people throw at teams for simply wanting a fair decision.

[Rainmaster 7]

There is certainly a large political element to all of this. Ferrari couldn't put a case forward, as the deadline had passed. The only way this could be reviewed is by the FIA themselves, so Ferrari asked for a clarification via a letter. Even though they accept the FIA statement, now they claim they were "not trying to undermine the legality of the race result" - a pretty disingenuous position considering the obvious impact a penalty would have on the championship.

As the F1Fanatic site points out: "If Ferrari genuinely wanted to shed light on “an incident that could have cast a shadow over the championship in the eyes of all Formula 1 enthusiasts”, then they would have explained why the pass was legal. Which they haven’t done – in fact, their statement is clearly written to avoid acknowledging that fact." (http://www.f1fanatic.co.uk/2012/11/30/ferrari-accepts-fia-view-vettel-dispute/#comment-1113403)

Remember, people on the internet were able to extinguish this conspiracy practically before it started, and certainly before most media outlets reported the story, and before Ferrari sent their letter (all of which was Wednesday night). Do Ferrari expect us to naively believe they didn't already know all of this before we did? When they have all of the information to hand while we have to seek it out? I don't buy it.

[pabloh20 1]

He was having some health problem, wasn't he? Hopefully the bald one is alright and returns soon. Maybe he's just heartbroken about Vettel winning the title

Was he?? Anybody any ideas?

[BradSpeedMan 6]

No one is mentioning that Ferrari were simply seeking clarification. That is not the same as putting a case forward. Also, having fought all year, if there was a chance that through clear cut evidence Vettel had in fact broken the rule, would you not suggest that Vettel's award should be over turned.

Why (apart from the most level headed) cannot see Ferrari's position for precisely what it is?

Put yourself in Alonso and/or Ferrari's position. Are you seriously suggesting you would not seek rule clarification?

Anyhoo, Vettel's deserved title still stands and this is now a non story. The only remaining issue is the petulant and spurious accusations people throw at teams for simply wanting a fair decision.

See George's post above... personally I would put this down to influence Alonso probably exerted on the team, you're free to make up your own mind....

[AleHop 0]

He was having some health problem, wasn't he? Hopefully the bald one is alright and returns soon. Maybe he's just heartbroken about Vettel winning the title

He's The Baldy Avenger and revenge is a dish best served cold.

No one is mentioning that Ferrari were simply seeking clarification. That is not the same as putting a case forward. Also, having fought all year, if there was a chance that through clear cut evidence Vettel had in fact broken the rule, would you not suggest that Vettel's award should be over turned.

Why (apart from the most level headed) cannot see Ferrari's position for precisely what it is?

Put yourself in Alonso and/or Ferrari's position. Are you seriously suggesting you would not seek rule clarification?

Anyhoo, Vettel's deserved title still stands and this is now a non story. The only remaining issue is the petulant and spurious accusations people throw at teams for simply wanting a fair decision.

Lovely stuff!

Remember, people on the internet were able to extinguish this conspiracy practically before it started, and certainly before most media outlets reported the story, and before Ferrari sent their letter (all of which was Wednesday night). Do Ferrari expect us to naively believe they didn't already know all of this before we did? When they have all of the information to hand while we have to seek it out? I don't buy it.

This wasn't born as a conspiracy theory, Sky was the first place that raised the yellow flags controversy and I realise now that there are a lot of things that needed clarification even for journalists, former drivers and of course for fans.

Ferrari is doing what they'd have done after Australia GP or any other GP of the season. For many F1 fans it's been a normal controversy if others are trying to stablish a conspiracy theory there's nothing Ferrari can do about it. They'll believe anything to keep it alive and will deny facts even if Ferrari or Alonso himself said it's been cleared, case closed.

[dribbler 6]

See George's post above... personally I would put this down to influence Alonso probably exerted on the team, you're free to make up your own mind....

So what if he did? My point still stands. And you refuse to say you or anyone else are better than him by stating you would not have seeked clarification.

[BradSpeedMan 6]

This wasn't born as a conspiracy theory, Sky was the first place that raised the yellow flags controversy and I realise now that there are a lot of things that needed clarification even for journalists, former drivers and of course for fans.

Ferrari is doing what they'd have done after Australia GP or any other GP of the season. For many F1 fans it's been a normal controversy if others are trying to stablish a conspiracy theory there's nothing Ferrari can do about it. They'll believe anything to keep it alive and will deny facts even if Ferrari or Alonso himself said it's been cleared, case closed.

So they are quite happy to dismiss the yellow flag calim (see #17) when the race are over an all, but when there is a conspiracy theory which fans get excited about they quickly turn the other cheek

[BradSpeedMan 6]

So what if he did? My point still stands. And you refuse to say you or anyone else are better than him by stating you would not have seeked clarification.

Why seek clarification after they dismiss the claim 2 days earlier!!!! I smell a rat, and I think it's Alonso....(he's now turn from mongrel to a rat I swear is true)

[dribbler 6]

Why seek clarification after they dismiss the claim 2 days earlier!!!! I smell a rat, and I think it's Alonso....(he's now turn from mongrel to a rat I swear is true)

I didn't know about this. Do you have a source?

[Rainmaster 7]

It's important to think about the order of events here, the order is not: Ferrari consider a protest, YouTube footage emerges, internet discussion generated, media reports on internet discussion and Ferrari's "protest", Ferrari sends letter, FIA responds, media updates story.

The actual order is: YouTube footage emerges, internet discussion generated, Ferrari consider their protest, media reports on internet discussion (but is behind the curve as usual) and Ferrari's possible protest, Ferrari sends letter, FIA responds, etc.

So what actually happened here is that Ferrari capitalised on a period of confusion among a lot of fans on the internet (not helped by most media outlets like the BBC not reporting the story accurately), decided to give it authority by writing a letter, and then refused to properly acknowledge the reply (knowing that plenty of their fans will continue to think the pass was illegal). Even other team bosses were reported to have seen the footage and agreed there was a green flag.

If you don't think that's what Ferrari did here (i.e. you think they actually needed clarification) then I think you also have to believe at least the following claims:

• That Ferrari didn't have people watching Vettel's onboard footage during the actual race looking for exactly this sort of infringement (and note how quickly they responded to the Kobayashi claim, as soon as it was put to them)
  
• That Ferrari couldn't have easily analysed the overtake themselves, once they became aware of it, as they lack the means to do so, which would require believing that they lack:
  
• the footage (widely available on the internet and no doubt Ferrari have/could access even better quality footage); a circuit map (also available on the internet if they don't have one handy); a copy of the rulebook explaining the flag/lights system (available on the FIA website).
  

Again, think about how quickly people were able to dismiss this claim on the internet by simply using the (limited) footage available, applying a small amount of logic and looking at the rulebook. Now consider why Ferrari couldn't do that with all of their understanding and resources, and most importantly, consider whether they had anything to gain from perpetuating the confusion and their relationship with Red Bull.

Lastly, the above being the case (and seems by far the most likely option) I don't see Alonso as being involved. If Ferrari didn't need a clarification as I suspect, then the move was just a political game and although Alonso is not adverse to the odd mind game and attempt to undermine Vettel's title/ability, he wouldn't have anything to gain here.

[Rainmaster 7]

Was he?? Anybody any ideas?

I think he had a toothache problem.

[Jean-Pierre 0]

SV should have had the mandatory 20 sec penalty...

[BradSpeedMan 6]

Lastly, the above being the case (and seems by far the most likely option) I don't see Alonso as being involved. If Ferrari didn't need a clarification as I suspect, then the move was just a political game and although Alonso is not adverse to the odd mind game and attempt to undermine Vettel's title/ability, he wouldn't have anything to gain here.

"The 31-year-old Alonso, who was world champion in 2005 and 2006, is believed to be pushing Ferrari to make an official protest to the FIA." Where does this come from??? U think Andrew Benson is sucking fingers here?

[JHS18 0]

SV should have had the mandatory 20 sec penalty...

For what exactly? Being Sebastian Vettel?

[Rainmaster 7]

"The 31-year-old Alonso, who was world champion in 2005 and 2006, is believed to be pushing Ferrari to make an official protest to the FIA." Where does this come from??? U think Andrew Benson is sucking fingers here?

I don't rate Andrew Benson that highly, to be honest, and I am wary of that sort of journalism. Alonso is "believed" to be pushing for a protest? Believed by who is the big mystery there. Believed by Andrew Benson, perhaps? The media are supposed to report a story with some reference to sources, when you say something like that, you are not so much reporting a story as creating it. Very sloppy and nowhere near enough for me to believe Alonso was pushing for a protest. Especially considering I don't believe Ferrari were ever close to considering one, because it's ludicrous to think they didn't know the facts here anyway, as per my last post on this.

The point is, Brad, that had Benson done the same amount of investigation into this at the time as say, plenty of people on the YouTube comments, the F1Fanatic site or even myself, he would know that a protest was never on the cards. I can only believe that Ferrari had also done the same amount of investigation themselves as people on the internet had (that's if they even needed to investigate), and that means that Alonso would never have been pushing for a protest because he would have been told there was no case, within say, an hour at most of Ferrari becoming aware of the building controversy. You can think of Alonso as political or a schemer and maybe he is, but he is not an idiot and is unlikely to push for a protest that he knows has absolutely no chance of succeeding. He has nothing to gain from that.

Ferrari sent the letter to needle Red Bull and undermine them, or, alternatively if we are being extremely generous and ignoring history, to prompt the FIA to "clarify" the matter for their fans (but obviously, if there was no political element here then Ferrari could quite easily have done that themselves, and it would have been more persuasive for those fans who had apparently contacted them).

It's equally true to say, that had there actually been a genuine case here or at least something which needed arguing, then I wouldn't blame Alonso for trying to push such a protest forward. But further still, in that scenario I don't think Ferrari would need to be pushed towards a protest, they would do it anyway.

[AleHop 0]

So they are quite happy to dismiss the yellow flag calim (see #17) when the race are over an all, but when there is a conspiracy theory which fans get excited about they quickly turn the other cheek

Ferrari accepted there weren't any yellow flags after the race when Vettel overtook Kobayashi, that was the Sky Sport "conspiracy theory".

Soon after that, a video appeared on YouTube that showed something NEW: Vettel passing Vergne under yellow flags. They asked for clarification on that and I'm sure Alonso agreed 100% and pushed for clarification until we all realised there was a green flag on that marshals post.

TBH I don't care what people say about Alonso. They said worse things about Senna but it's getting closer more and more every season.

I think he had a toothache problem.

I thought that was solved and as summer is getting to Argentina I supposed he was on holidays or something.

[AleHop 0]

"The 31-year-old Alonso, who was world champion in 2005 and 2006, is believed to be pushing Ferrari to make an official protest to the FIA." Where does this come from??? U think Andrew Benson is sucking fingers here?

The first place I heard/read that Alonso was pushing for clarification was the Spanish media. I'm sure he was just repeating that.

There were people claiming that the green flag Vettel saw at that post was just for those coming out of the pits and the video below makes you think that's the case.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BlwIAH1dkwo

So I think it's true some fans wanted an official clarification even if Ferrari knew that wasn't true.

[LabradoRacer 2]

Glad that the matter's settled.

I don't understand why people are upset over Alonso's "protest". Even if had pushed for a protest, what's wrong with it?

[JHS18 0]

When there's clearly a green flag, and there was never anything to this, it just comes across as being a rather sore loser.

[Massa 0]

Glad that the matter's settled.

I don't understand why people are upset over Alonso's "protest". Even if had pushed for a protest, what's wrong with it?

Yeah, I agree. If there was confusion (and there was), there's nothing wrong for Alonso and/or Ferrari to have wanted a response from the FIA about it. No one wants to be screwed out of a championship, and fortunately they weren't, but I think it's completely fair for them to want an explanation amidst all the confusion to make sure that everyone was okay. I'm sure we'd go through the same things if the roles were reversed.

The first place I heard/read that Alonso was pushing for clarification was the Spanish media. I'm sure he was just repeating that.

There were people claiming that the green flag Vettel saw at that post was just for those coming out of the pits and the video below makes you think that's the case.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BlwIAH1dkwo

So I think it's true some fans wanted an official clarification even if Ferrari knew that wasn't true.

Don't they only wave a blue flag at pit exit? I've never heard of a green flag for cars leaving the pit lane. Maybe I'm missing something (as always).

[The Shadow 0]

Why seek clarification after they dismiss the claim 2 days earlier!!!! I smell a rat, and I think it's Alonso....(he's now turn from mongrel to a rat I swear is true)

How's turbokick doing these days, Brad?