The Mercedes/pirelli Tyre Test Saga

[JHS18 0]

It's only three days till Mercedes appears at the FIA tribunal over the tyre test thing that has seemingly been going on for ages.

It'll certainly be interesting to see what the outcome will be.

I found this an interesting read. Mercedes shareholders say the team should quit Formula One if they are punished:

http://www.autocar.c...er-pirelli-gate

It makes the FIA's decision even harder. What do they do?

Not penalise Mercedes at all, and anger all the other teams to the point that they all go off and test at will, therefore showing that they have no control over the sport with its needlessly messy rules?

Penalise Mercedes with a fine or docked points, and anger them to the point that one of few remaining manufacturers in F1 could quit?

Or not penalise Mercedes and penalise Pirelli instead, thereby angering them and facing the possibility of suddenly not having a tyre supplier for 2014?

Tough call...

[Quiet One 15]

It's only three days till Mercedes appears at the FIA tribunal over the tyre test thing that has seemingly been going on for ages.

It'll certainly be interesting to see what the outcome will be.

I found this an interesting read. Mercedes shareholders say the team should quit Formula One if they are punished:

http://www.autocar.c...er-pirelli-gate

It makes the FIA's decision even harder. What do they do?

Not penalise Mercedes at all, and anger all the other teams to the point that they all go off and test at will, therefore showing that they have no control over the sport with its needlessly messy rules?

Penalise Mercedes with a fine or docked points, and anger them to the point that one of few remaining manufacturers in F1 could quit?

Or not penalise Mercedes and penalise Pirelli instead, thereby angering them and facing the possibility of suddenly not having a tyre supplier for 2014?

Tough call...

That's stoopid.

Being caught cheating is bad enough. Trying to put pressure on the tribunal with economic blackmail or leaving instead of facing the consequences would be ten times worse.

If they are innocent, that would make them look guilty as hell. And F1 is Bernie's business as we all love to recall. But Bernie loves one thing more than money: power. He can live without Merc money and certainly F1 can, he has no problems with removing highly popular tracks from the calendar, and never seemed to care much about some other giants (Audi, Porsche, Peugeot) when they tried to impose their conditions to get into the sport. So if Merc leaves, FIA wouldn't care much (in terms of sport, the ones that FIA cares about, they would have only lost a team of dubious morals). Bernie would be glad to see them go if they try to blackmail him. I think the only team that Bernie cares for is Ferrari, and even they cannot force his hand much.

So, the drivers will certainly suffer, although I doubt Lewis or Nico would have much problems finidng another team. And the public. But as far as I'm concerned, if Merc leaves and another team takes its place I wouldn't care a jot. They weren't exactly one of the pillars of F1 in the past 50 years.

So, I don't know if they are guilty, but I do think that leaving or threatening to leave the sport on this account is very poor form from them.

[Rainmaster 7]

I wouldn't care too much either but I doubt they'd leave. More likely if they're guilty they get some fine and somebody gets fired. I suspect they knew exactly what they were doing whether they were guilty or not. Mercedes is a team clearly spending big money trying to make its way up the ladder, and I doubt they mind making some enemies while they are at it, even the FIA. Basically, they're in a similar position Red Bull was in around 2007/8, though they lack the critical Newey element so their chances are not as good.

The important part of the decision will be a transparent ruling on what the rules actually are and what the process should be in such cases. Ideally, though it wouldn't come from a hearing as it would need agreement from teams, some kind of better structure must eventually be put in place for Pirelli to test tyres.

[Rainmaster 7]

Edit:- Well, that's a double post. I don't know who is to blame for this, my ISP or the forum. But somebody is going to pay.

[Quiet One 15]

I wouldn't care too much either but I doubt they'd leave. More likely if they're guilty they get some fine and somebody gets fired. I suspect they knew exactly what they were doing whether they were guilty or not. Mercedes is a team clearly spending big money trying to make its way up the ladder, and I doubt they mind making some enemies while they are at it, even the FIA. Basically, they're in a similar position Red Bull was in around 2007/8, though they lack the critical Newey element so their chances are not as good.

The important part of the decision will be a transparent ruling on what the rules actually are and what the process should be in such cases. Ideally, though it wouldn't come from a hearing as it would need agreement from teams, some kind of better structure must eventually be put in place for Pirelli to test tyres.

Yup.

[Insider 0]

This was stupid of Mercedes. They brought a 2013 car to the test, had the drivers wear plain helmets and Hamilton tweeted he was in Florida. At best, Brawn and Whiting will probably go - at worst, Mercedes will withdraw from F1. Basically, they have achieved next to nothing for the investment they have put in and shareholders are baying for blood. if they are not punished severely, then the rules stand for nothing. If they did leave, Rosberg will probably go to RBR and Hamilton to Ferrari though both teams clearly have a 'No.1' policy. McLaren may be glad to have either.

[radical-one 0]

It all boils down to Pirelli's tires being SUB-PARR like I always said before and people here jumped on my opinion - now what?

If they have the right tires then none of these testing crap would have been necessary.

[Emmcee 0]

At the end of the day, they used a current spec car using tyres rumoured for upcoming gp's, used current drivers and then made them wear unidentifiable helmets. Ferrari used 2011 spec car so there fine. Mercedes wouldn't risk an accident and distroy one of its chassis for an upcoming grandprix if there wasn't any significant gain out of the test. Plain cheating and caught red handed I say.

[Massa 0]

I hate that Charlie Whiting's job is on the line here. It's a mess; he screwed up. But there's been a lot of good in Whiting's time here and I'd be nervous about the direction of some things without him in that role.

It all boils down to Pirelli's tires being SUB-PARR like I always said before and people here jumped on my opinion - now what?

If they have the right tires then none of these testing crap would have been necessary.

Now what? Nothing's changed. Name one tire supplier that doesn't need to conduct tests. The tires are fine...

...though I will admit I am annoyed with Pirelli for something else: trying to drum up panic about "four-stop races" in the future. They're trying to get fans outraged to make the FIA cave in and let them break another rule and change the tires. It's ridiculous.

[brambilla 0]

I'm not looking at F1 News until Thursday, Too much Conjecture, all it does is make my head spin

[Quiet One 15]

And now Lauda valiantly comes forward to say that he didn't know about any tests!

I'm sure Brawn will be thrilled by the support.

[Quiet One 15]

The more I read, the worse it looks for Merc, IMHO.

1) We are still with the Mosley-era mindset. A point worth to mention is that the new IT is nothing like the old FIA proceedings. These guys are not directly related to F1 in any way so it will not be so easy to put pressure on them. So threats of quitting the sport is not something they will loose their sleep on.

2) As somebody mentioned in james Allen's blog: the 'it was private, not secret' excuse rings hollow and would probably end up being more embarrassing than useful. Private, but no secret means they weren't hiding from the other teams, but from the general public. One has to ask what was so awful about the few people that would show up at the test? Montmeló is not exactly New York, and I doubt more than 3% of the crowds that attended the GP would still be around and interested enough to go watch the test. And even if they did, what's the problem? That they might tell the other teams about it? But wait, wasn't it not secret?

3) So the secrecy, secondary as it was as a defense from Merc, can certainly paint them in a less innocent light. Now, the test itself. The defense seems to be principally that the test was made by Pirelli, and they were but the means tto Pirelli's end. So, more of a semantical argument. The problem is that it does not seem to be feasible to escape by mere semantics. Think: you can think that the test was conducted by Pirelli or that they obviously had so much input in all of it that they should be considered the actual testers, not Pirelli. Both arguments can be semantically defended. But would you allow a clear breach in spirit of the sport, leaving it open for a complete devaluation of the non-testing rule? I would chose the Merc is guilty option any day and, at best, be lenient with the punishment.

4) The other argument is that they asked for FIA. Again, being this the IT and not Todt or someone else, I doubt that it would make the tribunal any more merciful. It might only include an internal investigation or some head rolling inside the FIA, but not lessen the blow to the other parties.

5) Finally, I don't know how much impact the antecedents might have, but in the past (Spygate, Liegate), FIA considered aggravating circumstances the act of lying.

6) Pirelli, I think, will escape more serious punishment, whatever it is. They are not a team, apparently, they did not break their contract on tests (even if that contract is useless if makes assumptions in conflict with the rules) and they seemed more collaborative all throughout.

I dare not predict what is going to be the punishment, but I am quite convinced that a guilty veredict will be issued.

[Emmcee 0]

How could niki lauds not know geez. Apparently seb spilled the beans over the whole incident. Oh well nico,just because he is a fellow country man and probably a good mate,he shafted you on that didnt he. What makes nico think he could mention something like that to Vettel and get no reaction out if it. What an idiot.

[rwgordon 0]

"The more I read, the worse it looks for Merc, IMHO."

There's no doubt, you make some great points. I've always through either Mercedes or Pirelli would go down - it's looking like Merc.

[Angellica 0]

Okay so from what I have seen so far, Mercedes best argument so far seems to be, 'we didn't set up the test so we're not to blame'. If that is the best they can do then they're in deep trouble I'd say.

If they are found guilty then pull out of F1 that's up to them, it could explain why Hamilton has looked so miserable lately, maybe he knows that and is scared for his future. After all, where would this leave him and Nico now? Not to mention all the rest of the people who work for the team.

It's one big mess and I'm glad it will soon be over.

[Jem of the Shire 0]

Trouble and controversy seems to follow Hamilton! Not that this situation is in any way his fault.

So what do we reckon the penalty will be? This isn't as bad as mclaren's spy scandal where they were disqualified from the championship but my bet is a hefty fine, no points deductions.

[Angellica 0]

Well they're going to announce it tomorrow it seems. I reckon they could do just a fine, or a points loss, or maybe a combination of both. Depends how severe they think it is and how much they need to be made an example of so no one else tries it in the future.

[Massa 0]

The penalty will be making us watch races where everyone is on a one-stopper with no variation of strategy, and no position change, ever occurring.

I do get the impression that Charlie Whiting will not be removed as a result of this, as some had suggested. They did a good job of removing fault for him and the FIA lawyer, in my analysis of what was said.

The penalty itself, well, I go back to my first line. The implications of this are going to be bigger than the penalties issued. The implications being how Mercedes, Pirelli, Todt (the fact may still be that he wants Whiting removed and will do that himself), etc. respond. I can see regulations changes (i.e. the return of testing), too. To me, that will impact this sport a lot more than the penalties can.

[Rainmaster 7]

Worried your defence completely sucks? Why not try advising the court on what you think would be an appropriate punishment: http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/108167?source=mostpopular

[Quiet One 15]

Worried your defence completely sucks? Why not try advising the court on what you think would be an appropriate punishment: http://www.autosport...rce=mostpopular

Unless the articles on the development of the trial are heavily edited, I must say Merc got themselves the worst lawyers in the world. I was half expecting that, as the main arguments were pretty lame by themselves, they would come with some surprising twist or pieces of documentation but no, apparently they made those weak arguments, only making them sound worse than we suspected.

With such defense, I will be amazed if they are not sentenced to be hanged at Nuremberg.

It will be a shame as this whole thing was awfully managed by Merc. It will probably cost Ross' job, which meants Merc losing their most talented person. And it will also mess one way or another with Lewis' and Nico's season. And that is a real shame.

Stupid Merc.

[Quiet One 15]

http://en.espnf1.com/mercedes/motorsport/story/111879.html?CMP=OTC-RSS

Why don't somebody shoot Lauda?

[BradSpeedMan 6]

I hope they come off scott-free!!!!!!!!!!!!

Senna!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

FFS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[HandyNZL 1]

Trouble and controversy seems to follow Hamilton! Not that this situation is in any way his fault.

So what do we reckon the penalty will be? This isn't as bad as mclaren's spy scandal where they were disqualified from the championship but my bet is a hefty fine, no points deductions.

Did McLaren ever use the plans? Nope. Why? Becuase they were only relevant for that years car, and therefore only any good had they gotten the plans the year before. It was McLarens alleged lying that got them the fine, not the data. I do recall Toyota having some data acquired the same way around the same time. Nought much happened to them.

Merc is testing next years tyres...NEXT YEARS TYRES...ie they will be a reality, not as in the case of McLaren where all they really would have gotten from some plans was to see how else they could swing a cat.

Merc threrefore would get an adavantage in 2014 having generated baseline data.

I think that this would therefore be worse than Spygate.

[Emmcee 0]

Ooooo this is turning into a quite spicy dish.

[Quiet One 15]

With no veredict still issued, let's review Merc's defense so far:

1) The "Ferrari also did it!" gambit: FIA already ruled that Ferrari was within the regulations. Bringing that back again seems doubtly helpful. And even if they managed to obtain a review of Ferrari's case with a guilty veredict, how was that supposed to help them?

2) FIA's authorization: apparently, it comes down to a rather generic question made in a phone call to WHitting which he responded in a positive manner. That is, at least, FIA's allegation. This is the part I was expecting them to play their strngest card, perhaps producing a damning piece of evidence to prove they were authorised. It seems there was none, so if it really all comes down to a telephone call to Whitting being considered an OK for undertaking a test that so obviously could be considered unfair seems rather too naive from their part. I don't think this is even enough to bring Whitting down.

3) "B-b-but it was a Pirelli test!": their only hope, IMHO. Even if it is obvious that using a current car (with current drivers!) is forbidden by the regulations so to consider it a Pirelli test means only that they are laying the blame on Pirelli. It can work, though, as Pirelli seems to be authorized by their contract to realize these tests. In that case, the contract is wrong, as it goes against the regulations and either the rules or the agreement with Pirelli should be adapted to iron out the contradictions. They might get scot free, but it will be over a technicality, so still a PR disaster and will not improve Merc's relationship with Pirelli.

4) They gained no benefit from it: I am still amazed that FIA's lawyer even try to argue this. The fact that actual benefits or not can be obtained is secondary at best when talking about a breach in the rules. In any case, it is quite obvious that benefits can be obtained from such a test so if they didn't obtain any that's tough luck for them as they breached the rules for nothing.

5) "On second sight, we regret having used unmarked helmets": Errr...yeah...that didn't help.

6) "Ok, ok, we are innocent but if we are not, then a slap in the wrist would be just fine. Case closed, let's go have a beer, chaps!": Weirdest defense argument ever.

Conclussion: Merc has been defended byy George, and will probably end up having all its senior management burned at a stake and Roscoe banned from F1 and sent to live with Briatore.