rodders47

Why Not To Go To One Engine Manufacturer

50 posts in this topic

I watched the Indy race on the Gold Coast in Australia yesterday.

Whilst there was some passing, which we hardly ever see in F1, the fact that ALL of the teams run the same HONDA engine, naturally aspirated, and limited to 10,500 rpm, and with , correct me if I am wrong, but maybe only TWO chassis manufacturers, there was still a HUGE difference between the Top say 3 teams and the also rans!!

It was an interesting race but I sure would hate to see F1 go down this track, for one the engines just sound like a hotted up road car, but one good thing is that these cars dont have winglet thingies sprouting out everywhere, they DO look like a race car, albiet I think a slow one.

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of course there is always a difference between the top teams and those at the back even when ever single part in a series is spec. You can never have truly identical cars, even within a team the cars will be different. the thing is that in a spec series money is even more important so the teams that have it are still going to be ahead of those without it

case in point, Honda in Formula one, money does not matter as much

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Good idea, let them all go to Suzuki as they are experts in making peppy and economic 1liter engine for small cars.

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of course there is always a difference between the top teams and those at the back even when ever single part in a series is spec. You can never have truly identical cars, even within a team the cars will be different. the thing is that in a spec series money is even more important so the teams that have it are still going to be ahead of those without it

case in point, Honda in Formula one, money does not matter as much

Yes.

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Fine as it is really. I want to see them pushing things. Although GP2 is a lot better as far as overtaking goes.

I think that this year we have seen a much closer grid. I don't think we'll have it much better as far as a tight pack goes if they all had the same.

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I didn't see the race, but from the sounds of things the cars were more evenly matched than in F1, which is what you'd expect if they have more spec parts. If the cars are still not equal enough, the cure for that is to have more speccing. Ideally you wouldn't have teams at all - obviously they are a recipe for inequality between the drivers.

PS A single engine series could easily end up with the best engine in the world, so it could easily be the pinnacle of racing. Even more so if you want to see drivers in equal machinery.

Edited by Murray Walker

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No they couldn't.

The point of spec series is maximum cost savings per quantity not quality.

Quality comes comes innovation, innovation comes from cut throat competition.

Even if we're talking about a spec maker, with the development pace of F1 and the use of banned technology to truly make it the best, like use of exotic composites on engines means the budget per engine operation will go easily over 200 million (most money used today) and by selling/making this to 20/22 cars per season mean this company would go bankrupt unless they have unlimited cash from someone like Gates/Buffet/Slim.

If they don't have competition/someone to look up to/be threaten by there's no justification for huge costs and the other pains to produce the very best.

That's the reason behind racing is bears a big dose no rational reason other then to beat opposition/bragging right. That's why the teams put up with all the pains.

Unless you can produce over 200-300 to 500+ million per season there's no way to have the best engine in the world (don't hybrids and KERS).

Spec is quantity not quality.

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Yes but I just think the combined budget in F1 is so high that there's more than enough cash to make a better engine than the ones used now. Especially if the regs were relaxed.

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It is not like anyone is forcing the teams to spend the amount of money that they do. Why for instance, doesn't Ferrari just spend all of their profit on the F1 team? The teams will adapt.

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Yeah I'm sure they can cope. I just want to see the sport change to make it as fair as possible for the drivers because that's what I enjoy seeing. The cost cutting argument might be a fair one to some extent but I'm sure it's also being used by Max for his own ends. :lol:

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Yes but I just think the combined budget in F1 is so high that there's more than enough cash to make a better engine than the ones used now. Especially if the regs were relaxed.

And how much of the budget will be left when all the manufacturers go away? C'mon... -_-

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Yes but I just think the combined budget in F1 is so high that there's more than enough cash to make a better engine than the ones used now. Especially if the regs were relaxed.

Of course better engines can be developed if the regulations were gone. _That_is_the_point_.

And it is not only an issue of throwing more money at it. It is an issue of ingenuity and creative thinking. Only god knows what engineers could come up with if liberal regulations were in place.

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And how much of the budget will be left when all the manufacturers go away? C'mon... -_-

Probably enough. :P I was imagining if you took eg Force India's budget and multiplied it by 10 teams, then you'd end up with more than McLaren spend each year to develop their current car.

Of course better engines can be developed if the regulations were gone. _That_is_the_point_.

And it is not only an issue of throwing more money at it. It is an issue of ingenuity and creative thinking. Only god knows what engineers could come up with if liberal regulations were in place.

Sure. But if you want safe racing you'll need regulations. Especially if you want it to be entertaining. With spec cars the engineers could have a free reign to develop new technology because they wouldn't be under competitive pressure to sacrifice safety.

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Yeah I'm sure they can cope. I just want to see the sport change to make it as fair as possible for the drivers because that's what I enjoy seeing. The cost cutting argument might be a fair one to some extent but I'm sure it's also being used by Max for his own ends. :lol:

Fairness is relative to your perspective.

Max just wants control. He has to do something to balance out the lack of control he has in the sack.

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lack of control [...] in the sack.

:lol: Premature ejaculation? We all get it cometimes. :(

But yeah, you're right. If you want complete freedom for the teams that can be fair too. It's just not so interesting to me.

Edited by Murray Walker

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:lol: Premature ejaculation? We all get it cometimes. :(

But yeah, you're right. If you want complete freedom for the teams that can be fair too. It's just not so interesting to me.

Heh, actually I was going more for the dominatrix reference.

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Sure. But if you want safe racing you'll need regulations. Especially if you want it to be entertaining. With spec cars the engineers could have a free reign to develop new technology because they wouldn't be under competitive pressure to sacrifice safety.

Please.

Safety has nothing to do with this issue. One can put a zillion restrictions for the sake of safety and never say a _single_ word about specs.

In fact (and in my opinion), there are but three basic rules for F1. In any order: open c#ckpit (historical reasons), tyre-based power (e.g. no jets), and safety. All else is up for grabs as far I'm concered.

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Please.

Safety has nothing to do with this issue. One can put a zillion restrictions for the sake of safety and never say a _single_ word about specs.

In fact (and in my opinion), there are but three basic rules for F1. In any order: open c#ckpit (historical reasons), tyre-based power (e.g. no jets), and safety. All else is up for grabs as far I'm concered.

It shouldn't be completely unregulated other than safety, tyre propulsion, and open c#ckpit. For the engineering aspect the "formula" should be mixed up every now and again. Change the max displacement, require turbos, no wings, no diffuser, sail powered... Not all at the same time, but throw a speed bump in the way that makes them have to rethink the way they do things.

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Ferrari warned yesterday that they could quit formula one if the sport's governing body continues with its plans to slash costs. The famous Italian team, which has been in formula one since its inauguration in 1950, sent a firm signal to the FIA president, Max Mosley, that his idea of introducing so-called standard engines into the sport would take away their raison d'
Edited by adamstrags

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I watched the Indy race on the Gold Coast in Australia yesterday.

Whilst there was some passing, which we hardly ever see in F1, the fact that ALL of the teams run the same HONDA engine, naturally aspirated, and limited to 10,500 rpm, and with , correct me if I am wrong, but maybe only TWO chassis manufacturers, there was still a HUGE difference between the Top say 3 teams and the also rans!!

It was an interesting race but I sure would hate to see F1 go down this track, for one the engines just sound like a hotted up road car, but one good thing is that these cars dont have winglet thingies sprouting out everywhere, they DO look like a race car, albiet I think a slow one.

I saw the same race (at midnight!) and actually enjoyed it. Mostly due to multiple Danica Patrick commercials (she is hands down the hottest driver around with a possible exception of Nico Rosberg who, I am sure, is a woman on some level). BUT, one thing I noticed, each one of those drivers worked 10 times harder than Hamilton or Raikkonen during any F1 race!

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It shouldn't be completely unregulated other than safety, tyre propulsion, and open c#ckpit. For the engineering aspect the "formula" should be mixed up every now and again. Change the max displacement, require turbos, no wings, no diffuser, sail powered... Not all at the same time, but throw a speed bump in the way that makes them have to rethink the way they do things.

Consider, however, that a F1 regulated as I mentioned would provide its own "bumps". Innovation would take care of that.

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Yep for sure the drivers worked Bloody hard at trying to control those cars.

I am not familiar with the new rules.

Do they still run the cast iron brakes?

and why is the motor so limited in revs?

Even given that this series is a "somewhat controlled series" I bet the budgets of some of those teams would be huge!!! but then again the prise money is huge also.

What is the prize money for winning an F1 race ?

questions as I am a dim whit LOL

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Safety has nothing to do with this issue. One can put a zillion restrictions for the sake of safety and never say a _single_ word about specs.

Spec cars wouldn't have to have such arbitrary and severe restrictions on technology for safety, that's the point. When you have teams all trying to 'beat' the rules you have to have strict rules that rule certain things out completely. If the FIA's contractor built the cars we could have any technology we wanted because it would then be implemented in a safe way.

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