The Rot At Mclaren's Core

[AleHop 0]

If more people in the senior management were involved...

I remember they said that nobody within McLaren knew a word about Ferrari's documents, then they had to apologise because it was proved that the information was spread everywhere. Why should I believe them now?

I am open... it was he and Ryan who were culpable not the rest of the team.

I don't think it was just him and Ryan but if that was the case I'd like to know whether Dave Ryan threatened Hamilton or just told him to do it. Or maybe Hamilton told Ryan they could do that. They blame Ryan, they fire him, nobody knows anything... That's McLaren's standard procedure.

[HandyNZL 1]

Ryan has not been fired, Alehop. He has only been suspended. There is a gulf of difference between the two.

[Rainmaster 7]

I remember they said that nobody within McLaren knew a word about Ferrari's documents, then they had to apologise because it was proved that the information was spread everywhere. Why should I believe them now?

Obviously this is the problem they have now, since they have a well known record of cheating/lying, which clearly casts doubt over whatever they do or say. But it's also true that just because someone lies once, does not mean they are always lying, although I accept that they may be. In this case though, I find it more plausible that it was just Ryan and Hamilton, maybe I am naive, but I think that if more people were involved, the more chance of someone saying 'hold on a minute, this will not work'. Also, by all reports this was something which happened pretty quickly, I am not sure there was time for Mclaren to hold some meeting about what to tell the stewards. Again I think that Ryan would probably say something if he was being wrongly convicted here, even if you are loyal to a company you would probably not let them ruin your reputation and pin something on you, unless you are actually to blame.

I don't think it was just him and Ryan but if that was the case I'd like to know whether Dave Ryan threatened Hamilton or just told him to do it. Or maybe Hamilton told Ryan they could do that. They blame Ryan, they fire him, nobody knows anything... That's McLaren's standard procedure.

I think you give Hamilton too much credit, as soon as he got out of the car he gave a truthful account of what happened, during the time that he walked from the garage to the time he was interviewed, his story changed. Why? We hear it is because Ryan instructed him to change his story. It seems reasonable, I don't think Hammy could or would come up with something like that on his own. I doubt Ryan threatened Lewis, he probably just told him what to say and what not to say, and Lewis went along with it, which was a bad decision but an understandable one imo. It is indeed Mclaren's standard procedure, although I think there is not much transparency in any part of Formula One.

[AleHop 0]

Ryan has not been fired, Alehop. He has only been suspended. There is a gulf of difference between the two.

Ok, doesn't matter really the point there is that they suspended him pretending it was just a matter of another dishonest employee. This is what I hate most, it's even a bad choice for Hamilton and he had to talk to the media explainining that. It was sad.

[Quiet One 15]

[quote name='dribbler' post='286888' date='Apr 3 2009, 04:05 PM']A load of old bollocks blown out of proportion in order for people without a life to have something to talk about. This stuff has happened for years. The media, the internet and the sensation-hungry want blood, it makes me sick.

Can't we just go f*cking motor racing? If you want angels, go to heaven.[/quote]
I disrepectfully agree...no, sorry...I respectfully disagree.

1) We can't just go ****ing motor racing, we are an F1 forum. Racers race. Forums members...ermm....do whatever forum members do. In this case, talk about these things.

2) Saying that this is blown out of proportion? I don't agree there either. We only been discussing this issue for the past...what? 2 days? People was more patient with the Vettel vs Kubica which was really trivial, or the "Will you be gettting up early to watch the first race" thread which went for 2 weeks (nothing wrong with it, just for comparisons sake is here)...or the gazillion posts during so many months about the whole Honda Brawn saga....why can't we discuss a team cheating in such a blatantly stupid way? It surely beats the average cheating level in F1. And that's saying a lot.

3) I don't want angels, but I don't condone devils, either. I know nobody is free from sin there, but that does not mean that Briatore can be allowed to go merrily around the starting grid with an icepick. (Even though Briatore would love to). They did their dirty thing, they got caught. They will have to bear with countless of people making fun of them. I can't make them pay me a fine for trying to make a fraud of the Oz GP. I can at least have a laugh at them can't I?

[Max Mosley 2]

Ok, doesn't matter really the point there is that they suspended him pretending it was just a matter of another dishonest employee. This is what I hate most, it's even a bad choice for Hamilton and he had to talk to the media explainining that. It was sad.

It was sad. Especially because Hamilton is basically a reasonable person imho, who doesn't see that you can't be a genuine whiter than white role-model for kids whilst being a hyper-competitive F1 driver at the same time. McLaren cheat, Ferrari cheat, everyone's cheating in some shape, form or fashion. It's the same in most sports: if a top sportsman can get away with something, he'll probably do it. Whose favourite football team has never had a player dive? Same with lying. Senna and Schumacher both admitted lying. We all know Todt lies, Ron lies, Briatore lies, Brawn lies. They're all at it. But yes it was very sad to see Hamilton today. He looked a little like one of his own young fans, shocked at the realisation his hero was fallible after all.

As to whether anyone else was involved at McLaren, I really have no idea. George's points make complete sense. But when Hamilton was asked this question in the press conference today, my gut instinct was that he could well be lying again. Most likely imho it was Dave Ryan's idea to lie, and his job to plan the team's story, but the principle of not being honest could easily have been signed off by someone else. I wouldn't be surprised.

[AleHop 0]

Again I think that Ryan would probably say something if he was being wrongly convicted here, even if you are loyal to a company you would probably not let them ruin your reputation and pin something on you, unless you are actually to blame.

Of course he's to blame. But only partially. Where are the other(s)? They have done things like that before and as HandyNZL said he's been just suspended so they'll have to reach an agreement next week (I've just read it). I'm sure they're not going to kick Ryan's a## out of the company because that would cause him to speak freely about the issue. He'll get a position somewhere else or a big amount of money but we'll probably never know.

[Quiet One 15]

As to whether anyone else was involved at McLaren, I really have no idea. George's points make complete sense. But when Hamilton was asked this question in the press conference today, my gut instinct was that he could well be lying again. Most likely imho it was Dave Ryan's idea to lie, and his job to plan the team's story, but the principle of not being honest could easily have been signed off by someone else. I wouldn't be surprised.

Go with your instincts

Ok, I know I won't be taken seriously as my anti Lewis bias is way too evident. But ask yourself: What could Ryan possibly do to force poor innocent Lewis to lie? Threaten to fire him? Threaten to lock him in a room with Ash1 for an evening? And why didn't Lewis asked Ron or Whitmarsh for confirmation? Was it all Ryan's fault? They really knew nothing about this all? Was it just a spur of the moment lie from Ryan? Was Lewis so blind as not to notice that he was doing something that bad, that it could be so easily uncovered and that could bring lots of humiliation for the team and himself? Didn't it bother the least that Trulli would not just be stripped of his points, but he would be also made look like a fool after his celebration at the podium only to be demoted because of Lewis and Ryan's lies?

I could believe that Lewis was an innocent victim in all this...but that means thinking that the guy is way too dumb. Waaaaay too dumb.

And, again, the "everybody cheats" is hardly an excuse.

[5P33D3V1L 0]

Lewis Hamilton isn't a liar.

Mclaren from the beginning have told him how to act and what to say. But now its backfired and even from the radio conversations and interview straight after the race Lewis didnt want to let Jarno through as he didn't feel he needed too and rightly so. Mclaren have shown everybody within the last year how far they will go to win, and maybe its gone too far.

I cant see Lewis staying there very long after the spygate, melbourne fiasco and having an uncompetitive car, I feel Lewis will be seriously considering other offers.

[Jenson_Rules 0]

Does anyone remember the BAR fuel tank saga in 2005??? They got banned for a race, & had their points from San Marino taken off them! However, the team stuck together and took the blame for the rule breaking as a team! Mclaren are cold and heartless to me, they are for me a completely undesirable team. The way they have vilified their own loyal member of staff when in all honesty he was probably following their own principles shows how they really operate!

[AleHop 0]

It was sad.

Now look what people are doing.

LEWIS HAMILTON PINOCHO PINOCCHIO RON DENNIS F1

That will be a best seller!

It's the same in most sports: if a top sportsman can get away with something, he'll probably do it. Whose favourite football team...

I agree but nobody gets suspended within the team, sometimes the guy is sent off like FIA did in some way to Hamilton, but they never apologise for that. Think about TOYOTA, they got caught with flexible wings last race and they said Ok, we'll check our procedures and blah blah blah. Did they suspend the Design Director or the Quality Tester Director or...? Hamilton could have said something like that, he made a mistake, he misunderstood... Whatever. But they (McLaren) made a big story of that and now Hamilton looks like an idiot or a liar. Poor Hamilton, and I'm not joking here.

[Max Mosley 2]

Go with your instincts

Ok, I know I won't be taken seriously as my anti Lewis bias is way too evident. But ask yourself: What could Ryan possibly do to force poor innocent Lewis to lie? Threaten to fire him? Threaten to lock him in a room with Ash1 for an evening? And why didn't Lewis asked Ron or Whitmarsh for confirmation? Was it all Ryan's fault? They really knew nothing about this all? Was it just a spur of the moment lie from Ryan? Was Lewis so blind as not to notice that he was doing something that bad, that it could be so easily uncovered and that could bring lots of humiliation for the team and himself? Didn't it bother the least that Trulli would not just be stripped of his points, but he would be also made look like a fool after his celebration at the podium only to be demoted because of Lewis and Ryan's lies?

I could believe that Lewis was an innocent victim in all this...but that means thinking that the guy is way too dumb. Waaaaay too dumb.

And, again, the "everybody cheats" is hardly an excuse.

Yes, at the very least Dave Ryan was immersed in a culture where there was an unspoken understanding that if you think you can get away with it, then you lie to the stewards. At least to that extent, his lying was approved by his superiors, and there could very easily have been more explicit permission given too.

I wasn't trying to make excuses for Lewis and McLaren, and I wasn't even suggesting people look at their own sporting heroes before lambasting Lewis's dishonest cheating. It just struck me today that Lewis seems to genuinely want to be a role-model, but doesn't see the difficulty with being a ruthless sportsman while trying to teach kids to play fair. It was sad to watch.

[Max Mosley 2]

Now look what people are doing.

That will be a best seller!

Well they deserve it. As long as everyone remembers they're not the only ones cheating in sport.

I agree but nobody gets suspended within the team, sometimes the guy is sent off like FIA did in some way to Hamilton, but they never apologise for that. Think about TOYOTA, they got caught with flexible wings last race and they said Ok, we'll check our procedures and blah blah blah. Did they suspend the Design Director or the Quality Tester Director or...? Hamilton could have said something like that, he made a mistake, he misunderstood... Whatever. But they (McLaren) made a big story of that and now Hamilton looks like an idiot or a liar. Poor Hamilton, and I'm not joking here.

Yes. My first reaction was to feel sorry for Dave Ryan because it looked like he'd been made a scapegoat. Perhaps you're right and he really has. I rather tend to think he's accepted the suspension because he was given responsibility for McLaren's conduct at the hearings and he messed up, not so much by lying, but by doing it so stupidly when they had no need to. In other words, he got suspended by the team for cheating badly, not for cheating.

[Rainmaster 7]

Go with your instincts

Ok, I know I won't be taken seriously as my anti Lewis bias is way too evident. But ask yourself: 1) What could Ryan possibly do to force poor innocent Lewis to lie? Threaten to fire him? Threaten to lock him in a room with Ash1 for an evening? 2) And why didn't Lewis asked Ron or Whitmarsh for confirmation? 3) Was it all Ryan's fault? They really knew nothing about this all? 4) Was it just a spur of the moment lie from Ryan? 5) Was Lewis so blind as not to notice that he was doing something that bad, that it could be so easily uncovered and that could bring lots of humiliation for the team and himself? 6) Didn't it bother the least that Trulli would not just be stripped of his points, but he would be also made look like a fool after his celebration at the podium only to be demoted because of Lewis and Ryan's lies?

I could believe that Lewis was an innocent victim in all this...but that means thinking that the guy is way too dumb. Waaaaay too dumb.

And, again, the "everybody cheats" is hardly an excuse.

Deary me, you are enjoying this a bit too much

Because I'm bored, I'll answer your questions:

1) Ryan couldn't do anything to force him to lie. Ryan "instructed" him to lie, Lewis had just finished a race and was probably slightly confused as to why he was being asked to lie, nevertheless, he didn't have time to think about the consequences. He decided to go along with Ryan, I suppose he believed that Ryan knew best and he wanted to obey his 'team'.

2) There was no time or opportunity for communication. They were waiting outside the stewards room when Ryan briefed Lewis. There was simply no opportunity for Lewis to go and ask other people, or even think about it that much himself.

3) Impossible to know. It's possible other people didn't know, and it's possible they did.

4) Probably, he thought that he could get Hamilton third place. Martin Brundle compared it to a 'professional dive' in football, except Macca were found out.

5) Obviously not, or he trusted that Ryan knew what he was doing, or he didn't have much time to think about it.

6) I doubt Hamilton was even thinking of Trulli and the consequences of lying to the stewards in regard to that. Hamilton's main concern would probably be why he was being asked to lie when the truth was acceptable.

Hamilton isn't a victim, that would be too extreme, but it's also too extreme to paint him as some mastermind behind this who considered every possible repercussion for Trulli and Mclaren and so on, I'm fairly sure he didn't have time for all that. So the truth is somewhere between, I think, Hamilton committed the 'guilty act' and Ryan (and possibly other team members) had the 'guilty mind'.

[Grabthaw the Hammerslayer 4]

I'm bored with all this.

I know you are angry Andres but I honestly find it hard to get emotional about this:

- Incompetent FIA

- A lying team

- More press hype

Nothing new there

All very boring.

Shame this (as usual) detracts from the show......

[Quiet One 15]

Yes, at the very least Dave Ryan was immersed in a culture where there was an unspoken understanding that if you think you can get away with it, then you lie to the stewards. At least to that extent, his lying was approved by his superiors, and there could very easily have been more explicit permission given too.

I wasn't trying to make excuses for Lewis and McLaren, and I wasn't even suggesting people look at their own sporting heroes before lambasting Lewis's dishonest cheating. It just struck me today that Lewis seems to genuinely want to be a role-model, but doesn't see the difficulty with being a ruthless sportsman while trying to teach kids to play fair. It was sad to watch.

Darn you, Graham. And I was here with my boxing gloves on awaiting for your attack! Wait...these aren't boxing gloves...these are silken gloves...I should take them off...but they feel sooo smooth!

Ahem! Anyways, you gave me a perspective that actually made me look at Hamilton under a new light. And under that perspective I do feel sorry for him.

[AleHop 0]

I cant see Lewis staying there very long after the spygate, melbourne fiasco and having an uncompetitive car, I feel Lewis will be seriously considering other offers.

And rightly so.

I remember a few forum members (AleHop and maure at least) saying that McLaren could be a bad companion for him in the near future. We were saying that in 2007 and I still think he should mind his own business while McLaren mind theirs. They've unnecesarily put Hamilton in the worst posible situation a public sportsman can be.

[Jean Todt 4]

I'm bored with all this.

I know you are angry Andres but I honestly find it hard to get emotional about this:

- Incompetent FIA

- A lying team

- More press hype

Nothing new there

All very boring.

Shame this (as usual) detracts from the show......

Yeah thats sad....to see guys like Andres take this so seriously!

[Rainmaster 7]

Now look what people are doing.

That will be a best seller!

I feel most sorry for Dennis in that one, surely Whitmarsh is running the cheating procedures now!

[Quiet One 15]

Deary me, you are enjoying this a bit too much

Because I'm bored, I'll answer your questions:

1) Ryan couldn't do anything to force him to lie. Ryan "instructed" him to lie, Lewis had just finished a race and was probably slightly confused as to why he was being asked to lie, nevertheless, he didn't have time to think about the consequences. He decided to go along with Ryan, I suppose he believed that Ryan knew best and he wanted to obey his 'team'.

2) There was no time or opportunity for communication. They were waiting outside the stewards room when Ryan briefed Lewis. There was simply no opportunity for Lewis to go and ask other people, or even think about it that much himself.

3) Impossible to know. It's possible other people didn't know, and it's possible they did.

4) Probably, he thought that he could get Hamilton third place. Martin Brundle compared it to a 'professional dive' in football, except Macca were found out.

5) Obviously not, or he trusted that Ryan knew what he was doing, or he didn't have much time to think about it.

6) I doubt Hamilton was even thinking of Trulli and the consequences of lying to the stewards in regard to that. Hamilton's main concern would probably be why he was being asked to lie when the truth was acceptable.

Hamilton isn't a victim, that would be too extreme, but it's also too extreme to paint him as some mastermind behind this who considered every possible repercussion for Trulli and Mclaren and so on, I'm fairly sure he didn't have time for all that. So the truth is somewhere between, I think, Hamilton committed the 'guilty act' and Ryan (and possibly other team members) had the 'guilty mind'.

Yes I am enjoying this. On my own defense, I can say that I also enjoyed the Hungary 2007 controversy when Alonso was the guy being lynched. I might be evil, but I hope I am not too annoying

For the record, I agree with you that Hamilton is no mastermind. Taking in account how stupid the whole saga is, I doubt whoever decided to do this could be called "Mastermind", anyways.

I know we tend to read too much into whatever the other person says, or sometimes our own feelings get through and even if we try to write something we imply or say something else. Happens to me when I read Graham's posts. When we were discussing Piquet's value, it always seemed to me that he was implying that Alonso "decided" that Piquet should be kept. Even after he said he didn't mean it that way. And mostly because I am pretty sure he would at least want to believe so

Well, even though I would "like to believe" that Lewis is as evil as I tend to think he is, I agree that this whole issue is nothing like the stepneygate but more akin to the monaco gate from Schumi. Ryan and Lewis must have decided to lie thinking they would gain an advantage without giving it much thought about the consequences or the severity of what they were doing. They were more stupid than evil, almost childish. But the consequences were not, and so they have to pay. I have no sympathy for Ryan, Lewis or McLaren in that regard.

If anything, I feel sad for Lewis, but for the reasons Muzza said. Drivers are too young and too pressured to win at all costs. And they can get it very wrong, like this time. In 2007 it was Nando. Of course, then I think how much they earn and stop worrying about their youth and pressure to become winners and go read a good book and enjoy a good meal...which reminds me...

[pabloh20 1]

Yes I am enjoying this. On my own defense, I can say that I also enjoyed the Hungary 2007 controversy when Alonso was the guy being lynched. I might be evil, but I hope I am not too annoying

For the record, I agree with you that Hamilton is no mastermind. Taking in account how stupid the whole saga is, I doubt whoever decided to do this could be called "Mastermind", anyways.

I know we tend to read too much into whatever the other person says, or sometimes our own feelings get through and even if we try to write something we imply or say something else. Happens to me when I read Graham's posts. When we were discussing Piquet's value, it always seemed to me that he was implying that Alonso "decided" that Piquet should be kept. Even after he said he didn't mean it that way. And mostly because I am pretty sure he would at least want to believe so

Well, even though I would "like to believe" that Lewis is as evil as I tend to think he is, I agree that this whole issue is nothing like the stepneygate but more akin to the monaco gate from Schumi. Ryan and Lewis must have decided to lie thinking they would gain an advantage without giving it much thought about the consequences or the severity of what they were doing. They were more stupid than evil, almost childish. But the consequences were not, and so they have to pay. I have no sympathy for Ryan, Lewis or McLaren in that regard.

If anything, I feel sad for Lewis, but for the reasons Muzza said. Drivers are too young and too pressured to win at all costs. And they can get it very wrong, like this time. In 2007 it was Nando. Of course, then I think how much they earn and stop worrying about their youth and pressure to become winners and go read a good book and enjoy a good meal...which reminds me...

Hold on, though, for Monacogate, the stewards studied the telemetry, so they told us.....................

[Rainmaster 7]

Yes I am enjoying this. On my own defense, I can say that I also enjoyed the Hungary 2007 controversy when Alonso was the guy being lynched. I might be evil, but I hope I am not too annoying

For the record, I agree with you that Hamilton is no mastermind. Taking in account how stupid the whole saga is, I doubt whoever decided to do this could be called "Mastermind", anyways.

I know we tend to read too much into whatever the other person says, or sometimes our own feelings get through and even if we try to write something we imply or say something else. Happens to me when I read Graham's posts. When we were discussing Piquet's value, it always seemed to me that he was implying that Alonso "decided" that Piquet should be kept. Even after he said he didn't mean it that way. And mostly because I am pretty sure he would at least want to believe so

Well, even though I would "like to believe" that Lewis is as evil as I tend to think he is, I agree that this whole issue is nothing like the stepneygate but more akin to the monaco gate from Schumi. Ryan and Lewis must have decided to lie thinking they would gain an advantage without giving it much thought about the consequences or the severity of what they were doing. They were more stupid than evil, almost childish. But the consequences were not, and so they have to pay. I have no sympathy for Ryan, Lewis or McLaren in that regard.

If anything, I feel sad for Lewis, but for the reasons Muzza said. Drivers are too young and too pressured to win at all costs. And they can get it very wrong, like this time. In 2007 it was Nando. Of course, then I think how much they earn and stop worrying about their youth and pressure to become winners and go read a good book and enjoy a good meal...which reminds me...

Nah not annoying at all, arguing is a lot of fun! Of course I'm totally bored of this topic now since we've covered pretty much everything and everybody seems to agree with each other, even if we do our best not to show it. I don't have any sympathy for them either, other than perhaps for Lewis for the same reason as you.

Jeez, I hope other races are not so controversial, reaching a conclusion on here takes forever

[Max Mosley 2]

I know we tend to read too much into whatever the other person says, or sometimes our own feelings get through and even if we try to write something we imply or say something else. Happens to me when I read Graham's posts. When we were discussing Piquet's value, it always seemed to me that he was implying that Alonso "decided" that Piquet should be kept. Even after he said he didn't mean it that way. And mostly because I am pretty sure he would at least want to believe so

Yes, but the main motivation is to wind any Alonso fan up. It keeps George interested.

Hold on, though, for Monacogate, the stewards studied the telemetry, so they told us.....................

[Quiet One 15]

Hold on, though, for Monacogate, the stewards studied the telemetry, so they told us.....................

Of course they did! Here's the trtanscript:

Steward 1: Ok, I've been going through Schumi's car acceleration curve and you can see here at 1:29.452 that...

Steward 2: Yeah! I got the pill! Watch out Pinky, Blinky, Inky and Sue! Ms.Pacman is back with avengeance mwahahaha! Sorry, what were you saying?

S1: Idiot! I've been spending 3 hours with this whole mess of numbers and...left...left...LEFT! No! The other left!!!! Now go through the tunnel! Grab the strawberry. GRAB THE STRAWBERRY!

S2: Shut up! I can't concentrate! And pick up that phone! Is driving me crazy!

S1 (takes the phone call): Hello? Yes, Monaco race stewards here. Yes, I will accept a collect call from Maranello....Hello? Oh, hi, nice to meet you Mr.Todt. What? A guy named Vito wants to talk with me? Ok....Hello Mr.Vito. No, I don't know were Corleone is located....oh I would love to meet your firends and...oh...uhuh...I see....

S2: Yay! I got an extra life! So, shall we disqualify Schumi for the remainder of the season?

S1: Errr...do you know a guy from Corleone?

[Rainmaster 7]

Yes, but the main motivation is to wind any Alonso fan up. It keeps George interested.

Nah, the only thing which keeps me coming back is Ash1's posts on religion and pumpdoc's links to softcore porno.