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Ha! Bernie and Flavio! Reminds me of ten years ago, when my grandparents were in better shape and cared for various farm animals. My grandma took to calling the pig (there was one every year) after ministers so she could feel justice at the slaughter.

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Surely Button didn't like Hamilton twitting his telemetry data buuut...

http://m.guardian.co.uk/sport/2012/sep/03/jenson-button-lewis-hamilton-f1-tweet?cat=sport&type=article

Is it really important from an engineering point of view that their rivals have had a look at it? Why teams are so private about drivers' telemetry?

If well explained on the media would be great for fans to have a comparison between teammates and different cars/drivers.

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It wasn't just the driver overlay I think it was things like ride height and acceleration rates, which are apparently a bit more sensitive. I don't think driver telemetry itself, as in just a simple overlay of speed around the circuit, would be that bad. Actually Mclaren said what was released wasn't that sensitive anyway: http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/formula1/19464220 Then again they would say that, and other teams would say "wow we've learned so much" even if they didn't. So it's a confused picture of how sensitive this information was and whether it really could be found out by other means anyway (I'm sure a large amount if not all was already well known or available). What is sure is that it was a stupid, naive thing to do, which broke the principle of secrecy that every team has.

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It wasn't just the driver overlay I think it was things like ride height and acceleration rates, which are apparently a bit more sensitive. I don't think driver telemetry itself, as in just a simple overlay of speed around the circuit, would be that bad. Actually Mclaren said what was released wasn't that sensitive anyway: http://www.bbc.co.uk...rmula1/19464220 Then again they would say that, and other teams would say "wow we've learned so much" even if they didn't. So it's a confused picture of how sensitive this information was and whether it really could be found out by other means anyway (I'm sure a large amount if not all was already well known or available). What is sure is that it was a stupid, naive thing to do, which broke the principle of secrecy that every team has.

This. Except I am not sure it was a mere act of stupidity. I know I am the first to make jokes about Lewis stupidity, But in fact I don't think he is. Infatuated, perhaps, Hot-headed, sometimes but I don't think this was the case.

I am not sure what's going on at McLaren except that negotiation are anything but complete between the team and Lewis. And for what should have been a mere bureaucratic procedure between the team and their beloved son, this has obviously went sour. No matter how many times Whitmarsh goes to say that Lewis is about to stamp his signature or how many times they send Button to say something similar. The comments from Lewis side are usually less than friendly.

Even if they sign a new contract, it is obvious that it will come from mere convenience from both sides because they are basically stuck with each other. But they all act is if they all rather found a viable third option. Not the most auspicious of omens for next year.

In any case I have more respect for Lewis as a driver than for Macca as a team, so I do hope that whatever happens, he does not end having to do what Alonso did in 2008 with Renault. I hope he stays in some competitive seat either at Macca or elsewhere.

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It wasn't just the driver overlay I think it was things like ride height and acceleration rates, which are apparently a bit more sensitive. I don't think driver telemetry itself, as in just a simple overlay of speed around the circuit, would be that bad.

I'm not saying teams should provide drivers' telemetry at the end of every race and let f1.com publish it on the web. I mean, teams rarely release any piece of telemetry at all even 5 or 10 seasons later.

A chart with speed, brake %, throttle %, steering, track distance, etc. would be nice to see from time to time. No car parameters like ride height are necessary.

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This. Except I am not sure it was a mere act of stupidity. I know I am the first to make jokes about Lewis stupidity, But in fact I don't think he is. Infatuated, perhaps, Hot-headed, sometimes but I don't think this was the case.

I am not sure what's going on at McLaren except that negotiation are anything but complete between the team and Lewis. And for what should have been a mere bureaucratic procedure between the team and their beloved son, this has obviously went sour. No matter how many times Whitmarsh goes to say that Lewis is about to stamp his signature or how many times they send Button to say something similar. The comments from Lewis side are usually less than friendly.

Even if they sign a new contract, it is obvious that it will come from mere convenience from both sides because they are basically stuck with each other. But they all act is if they all rather found a viable third option. Not the most auspicious of omens for next year.

In any case I have more respect for Lewis as a driver than for Macca as a team, so I do hope that whatever happens, he does not end having to do what Alonso did in 2008 with Renault. I hope he stays in some competitive seat either at Macca or elsewhere.

Yup yup.

The more time goes by the more it feels like Ham is losing support and respect at Macca. I don't think it generally matters in terms of equal treatment, but Button must be much more popular these days. I think LH will re-sign with them, even if it will be an uncomfortable marriage of convenience. The positive side is that the rift probably isn't so deep as it can't be solved by a few stellar wins from LH.

I'm not saying teams should provide drivers' telemetry at the end of every race and let f1.com publish it on the web. I mean, teams rarely release any piece of telemetry at all even 5 or 10 seasons later.

A chart with speed, brake %, throttle %, steering, track distance, etc. would be nice to see from time to time. No car parameters like ride height are necessary.

Indeed. I just think they have that ingrained philosophy of not releasing data, even data that isn't sensitive. It will probably change, though, in this information age it probably has to change. I remember some time ago in MotoGP where they showed Rossi's telemetry compared to Lorenzo (I think) showing how consistent he was. So it can be quite interesting, although I suppose the Massa's of this world would never be too happy about having their telemetry released :P

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A lot can be inferred by the data. Downforce of different cars used to be an "anecdotal" thing where a driver would report, or a camera would show the relative strengths and weaknesses of your rivals. I am sure many teams do a CAD mockup of their rivals and do simulations so as to understand a phenomenon, and then to easily reverse engineer something that may be beneficial (Coanda effect exhaust, DRS).

Real track data to contrast or confirm their simulation of a rival would be like a godsend for this case. Gear ratios, weather and track info, tyre info are probably known to the other teams, so a simulation can be easily done.

So in effect, what Lewis did was silly. The question is, if McLaren are the leading team at this stage with the most competitive car, would the other teams have time to respond to that or just concentrate on their own research path? In either case, more information is better than less, is it not?

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A lot can be inferred by the data. Downforce of different cars used to be an "anecdotal" thing where a driver would report, or a camera would show the relative strengths and weaknesses of your rivals. I am sure many teams do a CAD mockup of their rivals and do simulations so as to understand a phenomenon, and then to easily reverse engineer something that may be beneficial (Coanda effect exhaust, DRS).

Real track data to contrast or confirm their simulation of a rival would be like a godsend for this case. Gear ratios, weather and track info, tyre info are probably known to the other teams, so a simulation can be easily done.

So in effect, what Lewis did was silly. The question is, if McLaren are the leading team at this stage with the most competitive car, would the other teams have time to respond to that or just concentrate on their own research path? In either case, more information is better than less, is it not?

Indeed.

At the very least, the other teams knew by then that McLaren's "new wing" was not the miracle they told it was for that weekend, as it nowhere on track gave the 0.4s (or something to that effect) advantage it was supposed to deliver.

The truth is that, being internal info from the team, it was never for Lewis to decide whether it should be made public or not, even if it was Martin Whitmarsh's breakfast menu.

In that sense, I still don't know what Lewis was expecting to gain from it.

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What Hamilton did was silly, yes. As Andrés said, even if it was Whitmarsh breakfast menu he should not publish it anywhere but people like Martin Brundle would need just a few graphs, not even too accurate, to make a comparison. Wouldn't you love a comparison on telemetry data of 2007 Alonso/Hamilton or 2008 Massa/Raikkonen? Or 2006 Schumacher/Alonso? I doubt it's so important 4 or 5 years old data, maybe they just don't want that kind of comparisons or the drivers don't want it to happen.

Two hours before the race always talking about buttons on steering wheels, tyres, DRS, DDRS, TDRS, KERS, downforce, etc. is a bit boring. :unsure:

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Hamilton's behaviour has become erratic to say the least. Personally, I would be reluctant to offer him anything more that a standard12-month contract at this juncture. Button may not be as meteoric but he's a damn site more dependable on and off the track. If McLaren want to get a stranglehold on the WCC over the next couple of years then lewis is perhaps not the best option. I'd be looking at the Hulk, DiResta and even Kimi.

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Indeed.

At the very least, the other teams knew by then that McLaren's "new wing" was not the miracle they told it was for that weekend, as it nowhere on track gave the 0.4s (or something to that effect) advantage it was supposed to deliver.

The truth is that, being internal info from the team, it was never for Lewis to decide whether it should be made public or not, even if it was Martin Whitmarsh's breakfast menu.

In that sense, I still don't know what Lewis was expecting to gain from it.

Presumably, from the fact that Lewis did post the telemetry, it does show an advantage to the new wing, otherwise there would be no point him posting the data in the first place?

The onyl reason I can see from Lewis posting it was a childish, dummy throwing reaction to the team telling him there should have been no discernible difference between the two different wings, when he obviously thinks there is.

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Hamilton's behaviour has become erratic to say the least. Personally, I would be reluctant to offer him anything more that a standard12-month contract at this juncture. Button may not be as meteoric but he's a damn site more dependable on and off the track. If McLaren want to get a stranglehold on the WCC over the next couple of years then lewis is perhaps not the best option. I'd be looking at the Hulk, DiResta and even Kimi.

Personally, I would have said Lewis has been the more dependable driver this year so far on track. Up until Spa, people were wondering what was wrong with Jenson, which is quite indicative in itself.

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I think it was clearly just a dummy throwing incident. Lewis trying to justify his deficit to Jenson to the world. As if anybody needed convincing he was a faster qualifier than Button under normal circumstances. Anyway, I don't think he's been erratic either. Button definitely didn't look too dependable for around 7 races :P In fact, Lewis' driving has been pretty top notch this year and Mclaren have much more to answer for in the "erratic" department. It wouldn't surprise me if it was Lewis who wanted the 12 month contract and that was the main hold up in contract negotiations so far..

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I think it was clearly just a dummy throwing incident. Lewis trying to justify his deficit to Jenson to the world. As if anybody needed convincing he was a faster qualifier than Button under normal circumstances. Anyway, I don't think he's been erratic either. Button definitely didn't look too dependable for around 7 races tongue.png In fact, Lewis' driving has been pretty top notch this year and Mclaren have much more to answer for in the "erratic" department. It wouldn't surprise me if it was Lewis who wanted the 12 month contract and that was the main hold up in contract negotiations so far..

My point was, results aside that Hamilton was no longer the dependable team player of yore. He's been strong in the car but the generally poor performance of McLaren this year has opened a gap between Woking and the 'protege', as it were and he's looking after No.1. Fair play but I doubt anyone at the team believes he will re-sign as long as there a rumoured seat at Mercedes or elsewhere. The trophies issue was a smoke screen - he just wants a better car and he doesn't think Macca have it. JB has had a slump but he's still brilliant on his day and with Lewis gone he just might get that illusive second WDC.

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My point was, results aside that Hamilton was no longer the dependable team player of yore. He's been strong in the car but the generally poor performance of McLaren this year has opened a gap between Woking and the 'protege', as it were and he's looking after No.1. Fair play but I doubt anyone at the team believes he will re-sign as long as there a rumoured seat at Mercedes or elsewhere. The trophies issue was a smoke screen - he just wants a better car and he doesn't think Macca have it. JB has had a slump but he's still brilliant on his day and with Lewis gone he just might get that illusive second WDC.

Results aside?? I would have though to an F1 team that was pretty much everything.

I am pretty sure the team are nowhere near as bothered what a driver does outside the car (as long as it's nothing too outlandish) as the general public are, as long as they deilver in the car. There have been many instances in the past where a team bends over backwards to accomodate a driver becuase they deliver on track, whereas I can't think of an instance where a team bends over backwards because a driver is a generally nice chap outside of the car. Of course it helps if you can influence the team around you with a positive attitude, but unless you deliver on track, it's worth nothing.

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Results aside?? I would have though to an F1 team that was pretty much everything.

I am pretty sure the team are nowhere near as bothered what a driver does outside the car (as long as it's nothing too outlandish) as the general public are, as long as they deilver in the car. There have been many instances in the past where a team bends over backwards to accomodate a driver becuase they deliver on track, whereas I can't think of an instance where a team bends over backwards because a driver is a generally nice chap outside of the car. Of course it helps if you can influence the team around you with a positive attitude, but unless you deliver on track, it's worth nothing.

Agree with all of this.

Plus, it wasn't that long ago that a younger Jenson Boutton was acting in a very erratic and dishonourable fashion around the whole Williams/BAR contractural debacle.

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Agree with all of this.

Plus, it wasn't that long ago that a younger Jenson Boutton was acting in a very erratic and dishonourable fashion around the whole Williams/BAR contractural debacle.

I think you are both missing my point. I'm not talking about the team. I'm talking about Lewis and why he would move if he could. It's not a criticism just a comment on the current position. Are 'dishonourable' and erratic' the same thing? - little bit of a stretch there I think, Steve.eyebrow.gif Plus, I never seen anyone called Boutton race. Was he French? lmavfa.gif

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I think you are both missing my point. I'm not talking about the team. I'm talking about Lewis and why he would move if he could. It's not a criticism just a comment on the current position. Are 'dishonourable' and erratic' the same thing? - little bit of a stretch there I think, Steve.eyebrow.gif Plus, I never seen anyone called Boutton race. Was he French? lmavfa.gif

You said this year Button has been more dependable on and off the track and that you would be reluctant to offer Lewis any more than a 12 month contract. If that is not taking the perspective of the team, rather than the viewpoint of Lewis, then I don't know what is laugh.png

All I pointed out was that Lewis has been very dependable on track this year. Has he done much off track except this telemetry debacle? Again, my memory is not the best, but I can't think of any other erratic behaviour as such. Stalling on contract talks and exploring your options is not what I would call erratic either.

Edit: We also tend not to call anyone for spelling mistakes,as it's not an English exam we are writing here, just a forum of weird people. And if anybody was picking up on my all of my spelling mistakes, they would have a long day ahead of them :whistling:

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Edit: We also tend not to call anyone for spelling mistakes,as it's not an English exam we are writing here, just a forum of weird people. And if anybody was picking up on my all of my spelling mistakes, they would have a long day ahead of them whistling.gif

I believe there has been the odd sighting of a girl in here! (not an odd girl just the sighting of them is odd ;) )

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I believe there has been the odd sighting of a girl in here! (not an odd girl just the sighting of them is odd wink.png )

There were a few who used to post regularly at one time, but they still do post from time to time.

By the way, all the girls that are on here are gorgeous and awesome, we are a very lucky forum :lol:

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You said this year Button has been more dependable on and off the track and that you would be reluctant to offer Lewis any more than a 12 month contract. If that is not taking the perspective of the team, rather than the viewpoint of Lewis, then I don't know what is laugh.png

All I pointed out was that Lewis has been very dependable on track this year. Has he done much off track except this telemetry debacle? Again, my memory is not the best, but I can't think of any other erratic behaviour as such. Stalling on contract talks and exploring your options is not what I would call erratic either.

Edit: We also tend not to call anyone for spelling mistakes,as it's not an English exam we are writing here, just a forum of weird people. And if anybody was picking up on my all of my spelling mistakes, they would have a long day ahead of them whistling.gif

Didn't say anything about Boutton being dependable this year at all. He isn't at this moment in time but he was last season and will be again, I'm sure.prayhands.gif The point is, you woman-chasing madman, Hamilton wants out. He thinks the grass is greener, init.

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Didn't say anything about Boutton being dependable this year at all. He isn't at this moment in time but he was last season and will be again, I'm sure.prayhands.gif The point is, you woman-chasing madman, Hamilton wants out. He thinks the grass is greener, init.

Ermmm, I know you're getting on old chap, but really ??? :whistling:

Button may not be as meteoric but he's a damn site more dependable on and off the track.

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