Alonso Breaks His Toys

[cavallino 2]

Since some (blindly faithful ) Alonso fans are naming him DOD, some words from the autosport race review are relevant here:

From 19th on the grid, after 54 laps of driving with no clutch, having to thrash the throttle at every downshift to engage a gear - heaping enormous unexpected stress on the engine - Alonso found himself harassing Button for eighth place, having also set the fastest lap of the race at that point. He had a couple of stabs at Button but was clearly struggling to drive the Ferrari around its problems and was ragged on the brakes and couldn't make a move stick.

Ultimately, he was following the McLaren closely into Turn 1 when his gears escaped him and deprived him of his ability to stop in time. He shot down the inside of the Button to avoid contact and his engine promptly blew up. He's unlikely to spend another afternoon fighting harder for no points. But he was philosophical afterwards ...

Perhaps, if he was intelligent enough (or willing to listen to his race engineer as Massa apparently does), he could have driven within limits and come in with valuable points, instead of flailing about pointlessly because his teammate was faster and blowing up his car?

[Quiet One 15]

Since some (blindly faithful ) Alonso fans are naming him DOD, some words from the autosport race review are relevant here:

Perhaps, if he was intelligent enough (or willing to listen to his race engineer as Massa apparently does), he could have driven within limits and come in with valuable points, instead of flailing about pointlessly because his teammate was faster and blowing up his car?

Funny, you failed to post the whole article or even a link to it.

Here you can find a link to F1network which comments on that same article. They call Alonso "the Quiet Hero" (an obvious hommage to my nickname, of course).

So...if a sour grape falls in a forest and no one is around...

[Kopite Girl 0]

But Andres, I thought grapes grew in vineyards.

I read your post about Alonso media and Alonso the man and really liked the way you put your point across. I admired the way you stated there is no such thing as a non-driver fan, even an anti-fan is still a fan.

My point is here is Cav has clearly shown there's no love lost. I quite admire him for that, just as I respect your dislike of Jenson.

But, you can see it the way Cav does. Or the way I do. Alonso made the decision to go racing rather than prance around in formation like the first four finishers. I understand there's a time to be conservative and back off when you know you can cruise home. But that was the problem with Bahrain IMO.

[cavallino 2]

Yes, I posted a quoted from the most respected publication in motorsport, you posted a link to a website some guy runs form his mom's basement, written by a guy called 'Jay'.

It's from the autosport race review, there is a link on the main page if you have a subscription, if you don't you can't access it (for the same reason I can't post the full article, I could get this site into trouble).

[Quiet One 15]

But Andres, I thought grapes grew in vineyards.

I read your post about Alonso media and Alonso the man and really liked the way you put your point across. I admired the way you stated there is no such thing as a non-driver fan, even an anti-fan is still a fan.

My point is here is Cav has clearly shown there's no love lost. I quite admire him for that, just as I respect your dislike of Jenson.

But, you can see it the way Cav does. Or the way I do. Alonso made the decision to go racing rather than prance around in formation like the first four finishers. I understand there's a time to be conservative and back off when you know you can cruise home. But that was the problem with Bahrain IMO.

Sure! If you read my first post in the DoD thread you will notice that I said Alonso didn't get my DoD vote because I wasn't sure about the exact nature of his car issues and that his move on Button seemed idiotic.

Only after reading more about the subject and give it more thought his whole driving became interesting enough. If it had just been a case of an uninspired race or an underperforming car and Alonso losing his temper, I wouldn't have even mentioned him. I don't vote Alonso as DoD on every race (actually, I don't vote at all most of the times as I find those polls ridiculous and pointless, you will see many members quietly voting for their favorite driver without even bothering to post a feeble defense on them...not hard to pinpoint who are those) but I always give my opinion on the thread and you will see than more often than not Alonso does not get my vote.

About the guy blewing his chances for losing his temper, you can't have it both ways. Had he stayed behind Jenson Cav would have made a post about how pitiful Nando was for staying behind Button and not fighting for more points. Obviously, that is not the point.

You wanna know why Nando did what he did and blew his engine? No idea. Some theories:

- Had he finished the race, changing the gearbox would have meant a penalty for the next race. This race he was battling for 2 or 3 points at best. This theory has the downside of not explaining why he had to actually ruin the engine. I guess he could have simply drove into the garage and said that the car broke? Or maybe the FIA would have then examined the car to verify if that was true? I don't know. If the former, then his move was disingenuous at best, but as he philosophically put it "it was a mere 2 points" (take note: no whining!); if the latter, then he obviously did a cunning move (probably instructed from the pitlane)

- Maybe he actually saw an opportunity to overtake, and by a huge coincidence the engine chose that exact moment to blow up? Nobody will believe it. But is one possibility, right?

- He is a dumbass. He fought so hard (so...he is a dumbass for fighting so hard and then throw it all away or he didn't fought so hard? It's difficult to argue with Cav's "damned if you do and damned if you don't" arguments!) and then just lost his temper and made an idiotic move. That would certainly be idiotic. I recognized that in my first post about the subject. I merely point that the feat of driving a whole race distance with a failing gearbox is far more valuable than the fact that he lost two points for losing his temper at the end. I wonder how many drivers would have lasted so long under such stress.

- He is a complete dumbass and a liar. The gearbox problems were nothing but a minor hindrance. Massa is a better driver. Jenson, too. Alonso had a cruising race up to that point, but he still was so stupid as to try to overtake Jenson and ruining his race in the process. Again, why not? But I can't see anything in this theory which conforms more to what we all saw and see than the "Quiet Hero" theory.

Besides, "Quiet Hero" sounds much better than Dumbass...Quiet Hero sounds like, well, me. Dumbass sounds like, well, Cav :whistle:

(Sorry, Cav, I am having fun picking on you! No hard feelings...I just want to kill you as usual!)

[Quiet One 15]

Yes, I posted a quoted from the most respected publication in motorsport, you posted a link to a website some guy runs form his mom's basement, written by a guy called 'Jay'.

It's from the autosport race review, there is a link on the main page if you have a subscription, if you don't you can't access it (for the same reason I can't post the full article, I could get this site into trouble).

As I don't have a subscription, I had to resort to "Jay" I am thoroughly humiliated and beg for mercy.

But, wait, you o mighty have a subscription! So you can enlighten us on whether unknown Jay was distorting the Autosport article more than you did or not! So...did they call him "Quiet Hero" or not? Because if they did then perhaps they saw something you "forgot" to include in your quote? See? Not so difficult!

[Autumnpuma 0]

Since some (blindly faithful ) Alonso fans are naming him DOD, some words from the autosport race review are relevant here:

Perhaps, if he was intelligent enough (or willing to listen to his race engineer as Massa apparently does), he could have driven within limits and come in with valuable points, instead of flailing about pointlessly because his teammate was faster and blowing up his car?

I like that I'm getting people to think about this issue. It is a fact that Alonso's balls-to-the-wall driving broke his car. So the loss of a few points is on his shoulders. It may matter later on.

From his position, fighting for just a few points, I'd say the risk to the car was worth it. If Fernando was leading the race, or at least had second or third on offer, I'd say he was stupid to push his machine.

Only the points tally at the end of the year will determine what Alonso's technical mistake has cost him, but it would be more true to say that Ferrari's qualifying goof cost him far more than his pushing did.

[Max Mosley 2]

Ah! Cav's fair and balanced posts about Alonso bring back memories of happier climes. Oh! To be able to speak the truth with that man's panache and aplomb!

For a first attempt, and taking up Mike's points above but going just a whisker further, I'm pretty sure Alonso is responsible for his awful qualifying position too. Unlike most drivers, he single-handedly develops the team and their technical set up, including the weather forecast systems, not to mention he plans out the strategy for the entire race weekend. But alas he got it terribly wrong, despite all his help from the good people at Météo-France. He then topped even his own incompetence with his two-faced acceptance of his team boss's claim that it was a team decision - a statement that was of course planned by Alonso himself in a clandestine meeting where he was known only as 'X'.

[yurp 0]

I like that I'm getting people to think about this issue. It is a fact that Alonso's balls-to-the-wall driving broke his car. So the loss of a few points is on his shoulders. It may matter later on.

Like the previous thread you are AGAIN making an incorrect assumption...

You assume that had Alonso not driven as fast as possible his car would have lasted the race. It may not have, it may still have exploded, he had downshift problems from the start.

You don't know, you can never know - so stop assuming you do.

His team will have told him to continue exactly as he was - they will be happy with him just as Red Bull will have been happy that Vettel drove exactly as he did.

Listen - if you were sat in a car with a sketchy engine/downshift/no problem at all (in Vettel's case) what would you do?

Option 1: Drive slower and give up any chance of points?

WRONG - what's the point of racing for no points? your car might have lasted if you'd driven faster and gained some points. Your crew think you're an idiot.

Option 2: Drive fast enough to gain a few points?

WRONG - how many points is enough? what's to say you couldn't have gone faster and got more? what's to say your engine won't still explode and you'll still get none?

Option 3: Drive fast and try to get as many points as you can?

RIGHT - think about it.

You sit there and say (with all important hindsight) that he drove 'too hard' and broke his car. So if you were driving the car, I assume you could tell me exactly how fast he should be driving so that his car explodes just meters over the finish line and collects the maximum points possible yes?

Bollocks.

If all the teams, F1 proffesionals, commentators and the drivers themselves see absolutely nothing wrong in what Alonso or Vettel did, then why do some forum monkeys think they know better?

Now can we stop trying to blame drivers for mechanical failures please. Let's put both these dumb threads out of their misery and shoot them.

:mf_tongue::mf_tongue::mf_tongue::mf_tongue:

[tifosi too! 0]

Since some (blindly faithful ) Alonso fans are naming him DOD, some words from the autosport race review are relevant here:

From 19th on the grid, after 54 laps of driving with no clutch, having to thrash the throttle at every downshift to engage a gear - heaping enormous unexpected stress on the engine - Alonso found himself harassing Button for eighth place, having also set the fastest lap of the race at that point. He had a couple of stabs at Button but was clearly struggling to drive the Ferrari around its problems and was ragged on the brakes and couldn't make a move stick.

Ultimately, he was following the McLaren closely into Turn 1 when his gears escaped him and deprived him of his ability to stop in time. He shot down the inside of the Button to avoid contact and his engine promptly blew up. He's unlikely to spend another afternoon fighting harder for no points. But he was philosophical afterwards ...

Perhaps, if he was intelligent enough (or willing to listen to his race engineer as Massa apparently does), he could have driven within limits and come in with valuable points, instead of flailing about pointlessly because his teammate was faster and blowing up his car?

There is too much certainty in that quote...

Only a person within the team could have reached such a conclusion, based on evidence -of-course-...

And that's the problem here.

The journalist says Alonso's gears "escaped" him and "deprived him of his ability to stop in time.He shot down the inside of the Button to avoid contact and his engine promptly blew up".

I didn't see any of that happening in that incident. I saw FA chasing Button closely and then he tried to overtake him, which he did.

He didn't lose the car under braking or tried to avoid contact, from what I saw and can judge on my own. He took the risk because he had a small price to pay.

And how did that move cause an engine failure? He over-revved the engine because the car was without any gear or something? Was that because of the "stress" the article says he put on the engine the previous 54 (!!) laps? You don't think Ferrari would have instructed him to bring the car in the pits if he was indeed stressing that engine to death?

Get real!

He did lost a few points, which he might have lost anyway, move on Button or not. The main thing is, he did exactly what any Ferrari fan hoped he would. He made a move on Button instead of following him around helpless.

He did lost those WDC points, however he earned plenty of "Ferrari points", among the fans and the team.

Which points would you rather have in your name??

[Jean Todt 4]

Ah! Cav's fair and balanced posts about Alonso bring back memories of happier climes. Oh! To be able to speak the truth with that man's panache and aplomb!

For a first attempt, and taking up Mike's points above but going just a whisker further, I'm pretty sure Alonso is responsible for his awful qualifying position too. Unlike most drivers, he single-handedly develops the team and their technical set up, including the weather forecast systems, not to mention he plans out the strategy for the entire race weekend. But alas he got it terribly wrong, despite all his help from the good people at Météo-France. He then topped even his own incompetence with his two-faced acceptance of his team boss's claim that it was a team decision - a statement that was of course planned by Alonso himself in a clandestine meeting where he was known only as 'X'.

All my friends regard me as a very neutral guy and the least biased.....but when it comes to Nando I am the THE MOST BIASED GUY.....I love your post Muzza....

[Schumikonen 2]

The most important thing here is that I said right away, just when it happened I posted that Alonso broke his toy, he just pushed it too far, maybe his team told him to do that but this era Ferrari is known exactly for doing things the wrong way, maybe they were trying to finish the race with a better image, trying to erase Saturday's mistakes, Alonso said this:

"So I had to brake in a weird way. I had to first gear down and then push the throttle hard so it would engage the gear for that corner."

He was doing that corner after corner for more than 52 laps ina 15 corner circuit(that equal more than 780 times), he did stressed the engine out, maybe he did because his team told him to but he did it anyway, he did brake his toy, like it or not that's simply the truth, if he didn't brake, nobody have ever done in F1.

[Quiet One 15]

The most important thing here is that I said right away, just when it happened I posted that Alonso broke his toy, he just pushed it too far, maybe his team told him to do that but this era Ferrari is known exactly for doing things the wrong way, maybe they were trying to finish the race with a better image, trying to erase Saturday's mistakes, Alonso said this:

"So I had to brake in a weird way. I had to first gear down and then push the throttle hard so it would engage the gear for that corner."

He was doing that corner after corner for more than 52 laps ina 15 corner circuit(that equal more than 780 times), he did stressed the engine out, maybe he did because his team told him to but he did it anyway, he did brake his toy, like it or not that's simply the truth, if he didn't brake, nobody have ever done in F1.

Of course he broke it. That's out of the question. But, like you said, he had to brake in a weird way more than 780 times. So, in the end, whether he pushed too far in that overtaking manoeuvre is irrelevant.

He broke his toy on lap 52? Well spank my a## and call me Rosy! It's a miracle he didn't break his car on lap 2! So anything after that was just a gift.

The point on whether he threw 2 points away by trying to overtake Button would be as if somebody, watching Jesus raising Lazarus from the dead, commented on how pale Lazarus looked...and so much dirt, I mean, he can raise the dead but not clean them up ffs? That is, like, soooo lame!

[Piotr 0]

Ok, first, Cav, when have you decided to become a Troll? Becuse I KNOW you've heard the same transmission from Alonso'd engineer that we all did. You know, the one in which he tells Alonso :" I know it's hard to drive a car like this, but you must push hard to close up to Kubica." So, are you blaming Alonso for following his race engineer's strategy?

Now, here are a few more dumbasses:

1. Schumacher - I mean ANYONE would have known that if you push hard like that, the wheel nut will eventually come off.
2. Kovalainen - if he stopped actually racing, Lotus would probably have made it to the end of yet another race (I mean finishing 5 laps down is better than DNF, right?).
3. Petrow - if he drove like a nice little rookie instead of challenging the former golden-boy-god-wonder-WDC Hamilton, he might have actually finish a race. I mean look at Kubica - he didn't break HIS car yet, did he?
4. Liuzzi - He might have even finish in the points.

BTW, it's your treads like this one that made me stop arguing with you on the Global Warming thread.

[maure 1]

Alonso lost one point... not "points" as the lewisteric insist.

Besides which, it appears the car was fcked from the warming lap, that is, from the get-go.

You, lewisterics, cry a river after a river. It only makes me smile and I appreciate it kindly.

Hovewer, I'm not without empathy for your desperate cause. I would like to call your attention on how Alonso remorsesly killed a culex pipiens with his car right before his engine gave up. Karma? You bet ya. Alonso could have easily avoided the innocent mosquito and, yet, he got out of his way to commit this brutal murder. The entire planet weeps over Alonso's senseless annihilation of a sentient being. The dipteron's family mourns with you all, dear lewisterics.

[BradSpeedMan 6]

Alonso lost one point... not "points" as the lewisteric insist.

Besides which, it appears the car was fcked from the warming lap, that is, from the get-go.

You, lewisterics, cry a river after a river. It only makes me smile and I appreciate it kindly.

Hovewer, I'm not without empathy for your desperate cause. I would like to call your attention on how Alonso remorsesly killed a culex pipiens with his car right before his engine gave up. Karma? You bet ya. Alonso could have easily avoided the innocent mosquito and, yet, he got out of his way to commit this brutal murder. The entire planet weeps over Alonso's senseless annihilation of a sentient being. The dipteron's family mourns with you all, dear lewisterics.

Maure, you make me want to become a Lewis fan...

[Schumikonen 2]

So, are you blaming Alonso for following his race engineer's strategy?

NPJ was follwing his team orders too, I guess there is no blame on him for what he did

[Schumikonen 2]

Of course he broke it. That's out of the question. But, like you said, he had to brake in a weird way more than 780 times. So, in the end, whether he pushed too far in that overtaking manoeuvre is irrelevant.

He broke his toy on lap 52? Well spank my a## and call me Rosy! It's a miracle he didn't break his car on lap 2! So anything after that was just a gift.

The point on whether he threw 2 points away by trying to overtake Button would be as if somebody, watching Jesus raising Lazarus from the dead, commented on how pale Lazarus looked...and so much dirt, I mean, he can raise the dead but not clean them up ffs? That is, like, soooo lame!

Maybe it is a miracle but that credit is for the car not the driver, if the engine gave up was just because he was asking too much from the car, can't see it? no wonder he was asking that car to do things that it was unable to do, we all now Ferrari have a cooling problem, following a car too close affect the engine and trying to pass Button at that stage was simply stupid, if the team asked him to do that they are stupid and if he agreed to do it he is another one, sorry but that's the truth again and I have to tell you that in your example with Lazarus is not valid because Alonso tried to raising him but in the act he killed him again once he did it.

[Max Mosley 2]

NPJ was follwing his team orders too, I guess there is no blame on him for what he did

[maure 1]

Maure, you make me want to become a Lewis fan...

So?

[Argento Reloaded 1]

very interesting mental masturbation... but regarding all the ferrari engine with problems in Malasya and in the other races, the problem is the other side of the pitwall.

If Pedro de la Rosa didn´t push so hard...

[freaky2 1]

Maure, you make me want to become a Lewis fan...

You mean you're a masochist? XD

(Dammit, I forgot it's mandatory to be one to be able to support Kimi >.<)

[Schumikonen 2]

(Dammit, I forgot it's mandatory to be one to be able to support Kimi >.<)

Now it is mandatory to suport LH but I think that Vetetl will win the WDC but I like the way LH drives, he has two great drives in three races, the guy is owesome.

[Quiet One 15]

Maybe it is a miracle but that credit is for the car not the driver, if the engine gave up was just because he was asking too much from the car, can't see it? no wonder he was asking that car to do things that it was unable to do, we all now Ferrari have a cooling problem, following a car too close affect the engine and trying to pass Button at that stage was simply stupid, if the team asked him to do that they are stupid and if he agreed to do it he is another one, sorry but that's the truth again and I have to tell you that in your example with Lazarus is not valid because Alonso tried to raising him but in the act he killed him again once he did it.

I got this creepy feeling that you actually mean what you write.

[Schumikonen 2]

I got this creepy feeling that you actually mean what you write.

And I got the creepy feeling taht you ran out of arguments.