Turkish Gp Race

[mikathegreat2 2]

Twas Vettel's fault, the end. Even my Dad says so!

[Kate's Dirty Sister 0]

After watching the crash over and over and over again I think it's 80/20 Vettel's fault. Webber didn't move the steering wheel like someone posted above, but the track bends slightly to the right, if you watch the on board camera the white line does get closer to Marks left front tyre. So Mark should have perhaps given more room to Vettel just because he is his team mate, although at the time of the crash Vettel was not on the white line or grass so did have just enough room and you wouldn't expect Webber to have given room to any other driver. Why should he? Vettel was faster out of the corner but he turned into Webber when there was no room. They were not immediately at the corner, if Vettel waited another half a second he would have been in front of Webber and able to place his car correctly for the braking point. It was Vettel on the dirty side, not on the racing line so it was for him to do all the work, whether he was a metre in front or not. From Webbers on board camera Vettel drives at the side of him, gets his front wheels in front of Webber, then turns. How would Webber have known that was going to happen? And why should he have expected that, just because they are team mates doesn't mean Webber should have given his first place away so easily. If this was between Lewis (or any other driver) and Vettel there is no way Vettel would have expected Lewis to just pull over for him and no one would have thought Vettel was right.

On the Red Bull conspiracy: In the press conference when asked was Vettel so much faster than Webber because Webber had turned is engine down, Webber said "You guys need to dig a bit more, somewhere else." This fuelled the fire that Vettel was told to turn his engine up so he could pass Mark, and as the BBC forum put it, possibly proving Vettel is the Red Bull darling and the Austrian big cheeses wanted him to win.

After the initial stance that it was 50% 50% on who was to blame for the crash, Horner then said it was Webber's fault for not letting Vettel have enough room to overtake, Vettel blamed Webber as did Helmut Marko in several interviews. Now it appears that they have back tracked insisting that there is no preferential treatment and that it was both drivers who were to blame. It has been said that Vettel was able to save more fuel so could go one lap longer on higher revs, enabling him to get the upper hand on the back straight, but in the same breath he said "The problem was that you’ve got two McLarens right behind you so you’re not in a position where you can start backing off at that stage of the race, so both drivers were going flat-out". How could Vettel have saved fuel if they were both driving flat out all race? And why was Webber's engine reduced if this was the case?

I know it's just a conspiracy but worth a thought, especially after what happened between Lewis and Fernando when they thought they were being treated differently. And because I like conspiracy things like this! Adds more to the racing!

[Schumikonen 2]

After watching the crash over and over and over again I think it's 80/20 Vettel's fault. Webber didn't move the steering wheel like someone posted above, but the track bends slightly to the right, if you watch the on board camera the white line does get closer to Marks left front tyre. So Mark should have perhaps given more room to Vettel just because he is his team mate, although at the time of the crash Vettel was not on the white line or grass so did have just enough room and you wouldn't expect Webber to have given room to any other driver. Why should he? Vettel was faster out of the corner but he turned into Webber when there was no room. They were not immediately at the corner, if Vettel waited another half a second he would have been in front of Webber and able to place his car correctly for the braking point. It was Vettel on the dirty side, not on the racing line so it was for him to do all the work, whether he was a metre in front or not. From Webbers on board camera Vettel drives at the side of him, gets his front wheels in front of Webber, then turns. How would Webber have known that was going to happen? And why should he have expected that, just because they are team mates doesn't mean Webber should have given his first place away so easily. If this was between Lewis (or any other driver) and Vettel there is no way Vettel would have expected Lewis to just pull over for him and no one would have thought Vettel was right.

On the Red Bull conspiracy: In the press conference when asked was Vettel so much faster than Webber because Webber had turned is engine down, Webber said "You guys need to dig a bit more, somewhere else." This fuelled the fire that Vettel was told to turn his engine up so he could pass Mark, and as the BBC forum put it, possibly proving Vettel is the Red Bull darling and the Austrian big cheeses wanted him to win.

After the initial stance that it was 50% 50% on who was to blame for the crash, Horner then said it was Webber's fault for not letting Vettel have enough room to overtake, Vettel blamed Webber as did Helmut Marko in several interviews. Now it appears that they have back tracked insisting that there is no preferential treatment and that it was both drivers who were to blame. It has been said that Vettel was able to save more fuel so could go one lap longer on higher revs, enabling him to get the upper hand on the back straight, but in the same breath he said "The problem was that you’ve got two McLarens right behind you so you’re not in a position where you can start backing off at that stage of the race, so both drivers were going flat-out". How could Vettel have saved fuel if they were both driving flat out all race? And why was Webber's engine reduced if this was the case?

I know it's just a conspiracy but worth a thought, especially after what happened between Lewis and Fernando when they thought they were being treated differently. And because I like conspiracy things like this! Adds more to the racing!

No conspiracy we have seen this the whole year, the same happen to Massa in Bahrain, he was told to slow down to take care of the engine/tires while Alonso was posting fastest laps, Webber was pushing to get away from Hamilton and Hamilton pushing to pass Webber they both had a higher fuel consumption that Vettel Button so the more logical step is to tell those drivers to save fuel, nothing wierd here, as for the crash, please take note of this all of you, of you disagree with my point of then you don't know about racing

[Schumikonen 2]

Webber onboard lap

just as a reference look the path of Webber on a normal lap, look at the point of the crash and compare where Webber should be at that point and where he was at the moment of the crash, the only reason he was there was to try to prevent the pass but Vettel was already in front and Webber caused the crash because he didn't want to make room for the car that had already passed him.

[AleHop 0]

On the Red Bull conspiracy: In the press conference when asked was Vettel so much faster than Webber because Webber had turned is engine down, Webber said "You guys need to dig a bit more, somewhere else." This fuelled the fire that Vettel was told to turn his engine up so he could pass Mark, and as the BBC forum put it, possibly proving Vettel is the Red Bull darling and the Austrian big cheeses wanted him to win.

After the initial stance that it was 50% 50% on who was to blame for the crash, Horner then said it was Webber's fault for not letting Vettel have enough room to overtake, Vettel blamed Webber as did Helmut Marko in several interviews. Now it appears that they have back tracked insisting that there is no preferential treatment and that it was both drivers who were to blame. It has been said that Vettel was able to save more fuel so could go one lap longer on higher revs, enabling him to get the upper hand on the back straight, but in the same breath he said "The problem was that you’ve got two McLarens right behind you so you’re not in a position where you can start backing off at that stage of the race, so both drivers were going flat-out". How could Vettel have saved fuel if they were both driving flat out all race? And why was Webber's engine reduced if this was the case?

A very stupid thing to do in Red Bull when you have the best car and you can win both Championship for the first and maybe only time in your life. Even if Webber had made a terribly costly mistake, which he didn't, he didn't deserve all the sh#t we've read from Horner, Marko, etc.

They clearly cornering Webber, their fingers pointing to him... And then they still back off a bit to talk about equal treatment, blah, blah, blah... Is Ron Dennis a consultant for them? It looks quite similar to what McLaren did in 2007.

[Schumikonen 2]

A very stupid thing to do in Red Bull when you have the best car and you can win both Championship for the first and maybe only time in your life. Even if Webber had made a terribly costly mistake, which he didn't, he didn't deserve all the sh#t we've read from Horner, Marko, etc.

They clearly cornering Webber, their fingers pointing to him... And then they still back off a bit to talk about equal treatment, blah, blah, blah... Is Ron Dennis a consultant for them? It looks quite similar to what McLaren did in 2007.

that's because Webber is the one at fault in this case, you don't want to see or maybe you can't see but that's the way it is

[LabradoRacer 2]

When Vettel attempted to overtake Webber, he had one extra kilo of fuel. What gives? Did he top up with more at the start? If not, I don't understand it, considering he was pretty much stuck to Webber for entire race, so can't say that conservative driving helped him save the fuel. Any tech-unchallenged fella care to throw light?

[Rainmaster 7]

When Vettel attempted to overtake Webber, he had one extra kilo of fuel. What gives? Did he top up with more at the start? If not, I don't understand it, considering he was pretty much stuck to Webber for entire race, so can't say that conservative driving helped him save the fuel. Any tech-unchallenged fella care to throw light?

A car uses less fuel in a slipstream, so Webber was using more because he had nobody in front. Vettel was following cars fairly closely during the race I guess (can't even remember now), so managed to save a very small amount of fuel because his engine had to work a little less hard.

[Jean Todt 4]

A car uses less fuel in a slipstream, so Webber was using more because he had nobody in front. Vettel was following cars fairly closely during the race I guess (can't even remember now), so managed to save a very small amount of fuel because his engine had to work a little less hard.

agree with you on the slipstream path...but following a car for too long does cut oxygen supply right? or in otherwords...choke...

just a doubt....

[Rainmaster 7]

No more choking, please!

[Max Mosley 2]

A very stupid thing to do in Red Bull when you have the best car and you can win both Championship for the first and maybe only time in your life. Even if Webber had made a terribly costly mistake, which he didn't, he didn't deserve all the sh#t we've read from Horner, Marko, etc.

I agree. They're hanging the Aussie out to dry.

[Schumikonen 2]

I agree. They're hanging the Aussie out to dry.

There must be a reason for this, as you know everything has a cause.

[JHS 1]

Twas Vettel's fault, the end. Even my Dad says so!

May I ask who your Dad is? Some highly respected F1 journo? I kid you.

Interesting that Helmut Marko and Christian seem to be leaning to it being more Mark's fault. I have to say, I agree, but after Christian initially blamed Vettel for the incident, it's certainly facinating to note the change in tone. I guess Vettel really is Red Bull's "golden boy", however much they choose to deny it. I can't blame them either, if they would prefer Vettel to be champion over Mark. I'd be a great story for the Red Bull driver system, a young guy coming up courtasy of that system to the winner of the pinnacle of motorsport's championship. It'd do Red Bull's brand a lot of good.

It seems there is certainly some friction brewing in the team though. I think there will still be undercurrents of this incident for many a year to come. Take a look at Alonso and Hamilton. The friction there was in '07, and even now 3 years on at different teams, they still arn't best buddies. I still wonder if Mark has truly forgiven Seb yet for Fuji '07 on the one that Mark said "got away". They'll say they've put it behind them and will give some soundbites about wanting to focus on doing the best for the team, but I still think they'll think about it, espacially the next time they go wheel-to-wheel again.

I sensed a bit of friction in the McLaren camp as well after the race. It was clear to see from Lewis's subdued reaction that he wasn't happy by how Button caught and almost took the win away from him when the team told him to look after the car. Apparently, Hamilton was told to look after the car three laps before Button was. If that had indeed cost Lewis the victory, I'm sure he'd be fuming at the team. I think he's starting to realise that McLaren isn't all "his team" as many have said it was.

[Piotr 0]

Vettel insists collision not his fault

By Dieter Rencken and Matt Beer Sunday, May 30th 2010, 13:44 GMT

Sebastian Vettel was adamant that he was not to blame for the collision with team-mate Mark Webber that cost Red Bull Racing a one-two finish in the Turkish Grand Prix.

Webber was leading Vettel on lap 41, with the McLarens just behind, when the German drew alongside approaching Turn 12. But the pair made contact, with Webber going wide and falling to third and Vettel forced to retire. McLaren's Lewis Hamilton and Jenson Button went on to finish first and second.

"Obviously, I think if you look at the pictures it was clear I had the inside," said Vettel. "I went on the inside, I was ahead and just going down to focus on the braking point and honestly, you can see we touched and he touched my right rear wheel and I went off."

He denied that the collision was going to put the intra-team relationships at Red Bull under strain.

"There is no fight," Vettel insisted. "This is something that happens. We do not need it but there is nothing we can do now.

"Obviously I am not very happy, I was inside focusing on the braking point, we touched and that was it."

He did not think he was clearly faster than Webber at that point, but was confident he could have completed the pass.

"I think at that stage, Mark, myself and Lewis were pretty much the same," Vettel said. "I was a bit quicker than Mark, I was getting closer and I knew I could maybe get him on the back straight. It was close, I passed him on the left and that was the story."

Didn't Vettel do something similar to Kubica in Australia '09? Except it was Kubica who was passing him on the outside... He admitted his fault there. I guess the little Sebbie is learning fast...

[Kate's Dirty Sister 0]

No conspiracy we have seen this the whole year, the same happen to Massa in Bahrain, he was told to slow down to take care of the engine/tires while Alonso was posting fastest laps, Webber was pushing to get away from Hamilton and Hamilton pushing to pass Webber they both had a higher fuel consumption that Vettel Button so the more logical step is to tell those drivers to save fuel, nothing wierd here, as for the crash, please take note of this all of you, of you disagree with my point of then you don't know about racing

When you say it like that, then it doesn't seem much of a conspiracy BUT all the people in the paddock who know an awful lot more about F1 than we all do put together, then there must be some truth in it. Besides even if it's untrue I like this, so don't spoil my daydreams!

My answer to the part I've made bold:

A very stupid thing to do in Red Bull when you have the best car and you can win both Championship for the first and maybe only time in your life. Even if Webber had made a terribly costly mistake, which he didn't, he didn't deserve all the sh#t we've read from Horner, Marko, etc.

They clearly cornering Webber, their fingers pointing to him... And then they still back off a bit to talk about equal treatment, blah, blah, blah... Is Ron Dennis a consultant for them? It looks quite similar to what McLaren did in 2007.

Totally, Red Bull acted very badly pointing fingers, especially when most people involved in F1 think it was more Vettel's fault. If you're Webber, that has got to hurt. It's not very professional and now they have to contend with questions about equality which will only put more pressure on the team and drivers. And it doesn't even have to be true, if Webber feels he's second best then that's going to affect him and his side of the garage and they could, like you say, end up with Red Bull imploding in on themselves like McLaren 2007.

[Schumikonen 2]

My answer to the part I've made bold:

that was my intention, to provoke this kind of reaction.

[Schumikonen 2]

If I remember correctly we had a thread about intra team or team amtes fights, it would be good if someone digs for it, I would like to see what were our predictions now that we have this fight within Red Bull, right now I don't have the time to look for it and I don't remember if it is a thread about or if we, as always, hijacked another thread to discuss that topic, can someone help me with this?

[LabradoRacer 2]

I agree. They're hanging the Aussie out to dry.

Justified. He was soaking wet after the Monaco celebrations.

[supercampeaobrasileiro 0]

i think answer is quite simple - vettel made a bit of a mess of it, and webber did what any racer would do...hold his line...fact is, RBR know that webber is not the long term future, vettel is much younger and will be around far longer than webber - i think they plan future of RBR around vettel so they cannot upset him too much - webber will probably be gone in 1 or 2 seasons so they calculate that it is better to sacrifice the aussie...F1 has always been v political...

talking politics i see nando saying some less than nice things about ferrari F10 today...think nando has to learn that maranello do not wash clothes in public and this will annoy the team/factory etc...ok F10 not made progress but no need to speak to press...and this is not going to distract from another issue which is that nando did not get best out of F10 last weekend..massa finished 10 seconds ahead and had a better quali...better not to speak at this moment nando

[DOF_power 0]

What a ****ed up race.

Cars are crashing instead passing and re-passing each other and when they're actually racing the team "save fuel" orders come in.

Monza used to have 25 to 40 on track lead changes in the 60s and early 70s and 3 photo finishes in 67, 69 and 71. That's what I want for ****'s sake.

[JHS 1]

Some people are never happy, are they?

Cars WERE passing and re-passing. Did you see the McLaren duel? I guess not, I presume you had it on 2x fast forward just to say you've watched it and give your regular "F1 sucks!" post. Oh well, your loss.

I bet if you did get your ideal situation of a photo finish every race you'd still moan. Something along the lines of "This darn F1 is too predictable these days with all these photo finishes! Goddamn it!"

This wasn't meant as an agressive post. I'm just fed-up with the way people moan, moan and moan some more. For heaven's sake, it isn't rocket science. Just don't watch it if you don't enjoy it. And don't confuse reality with what you believe too.

[Jean Todt 4]

Some people are never happy, are they?

Cars WERE passing and re-passing. Did you see the McLaren duel? I guess not, I presume you had it on 2x fast forward just to say you've watched it and give your regular "F1 sucks!" post. Oh well, your loss.

I bet if you did get your ideal situation of a photo finish every race you'd still moan. Something along the lines of "This darn F1 is too predictable these days with all these photo finishes! Goddamn it!"

This wasn't meant as an agressive post. I'm just fed-up with the way people moan, moan and moan some more. For heaven's sake, it isn't rocket science. Just don't watch it if you don't enjoy it. And don't confuse reality with what you believe too.

[Rainmaster 7]

Gotta agree with JHS on this one. It was an interesting battle with four of the top guys running so closely - these are the good old days.

[Jean Todt 4]

Justified. He was soaking wet after the Monaco celebrations.

[Jean Todt 4]

can everyone shutup? we got a very good racing last sunday.....no matter what the drama was. the top 4 were almost dry, they pushed each other to such an extent that they used more fuel than they planned...