Questions You Have Always Pondered On

[Quiet One 15]

Kamikaze pilots reading the Bible by the dim light of an open refrigerator... you guys slay me.

(...Gotta' get some sleep before catching the red eye to Montreal on Thursday...)

Bah, just another 97-pound weakling

[Schumikonen 2]

But that is contradictory to what my teacher tried to tell me. Lucifer was apparently cast out because he disobeyed God by not doing what he asked which was 'love human more than me'

Its interesting. I'm the biggest contradiction I know. An Athiest who has interest in that stuff.

That's not true Lucifer's problem are from way before the world was created so that can not be true, at the beggining he was in Eden as the Serpent thus his was Satan before that.

Regarding you question God is not all forgiveness God has his limits and even man can get to the point were they would never be forgiven but most of the people haven't got to that point yet, man as forgiven and saved by faith, faith is believing in God even when you haven't seen him but Lucifer was with God and he chose the wrong way so there is no faith that he can use to be saved and besides that Lucifer has already been senteced and he is suffering part of his punishement as he was casted out of heaven, day by day goes by and he knows what aways for him like those who are sentenced to death, only waiting for that day to be killed, so live Satan knowing that he has not escape and he doesn't sleep so he has not even one minute to forget that every second his punishment is closer.

In conclusion forgiveness comes through faith for those who believe, Lucifer was alredy there and he resign to his position by going against God so forgiveness is just out of his reach.

[yurp 0]

Alehop - I am a rare bread of atheist...

I went to a C of E school. We had bible readings every day. I have personally read the king james bible cover to cover. My parents (unlike most religious people) left it to me to research and decide whether I should be christened or not.

I have a better understanding of the whole bible and christian history (as opposed to the cherry-picked version that we hear most of the time) than many christians.

Why Chrisitians can't even think about stoning a human being?

Fact - Christians have murdered, raped, drowned, burried alive and stoned people to death throughout history in the name of christianity.

Fact - The bible dictates that stoning is an appropriate punishment for various crimes.

What Jesus taught us is not what we (Christians, Priests, etc.) do. Why is it so hard for some people to understand, Adams?

I agree...

And here lies the rub - many christians see the abhorence of stoning worshippers of false idols and killing heretics, but insist on literal interpretation of genesis - bizarre.

Moving on...

Most christians live normal lives like most non-christians.

Some christians lie, cheat, steal, rape and murder just like some non-christians.

Fact - US prisons are filled with a disproportionately large number of christians compared to the general population - moral compass?

Fact - Religious adherents have a lower than average education level - ignorance isn't required to have 'faith' but it helps.

Fact - No genocides have ever been committed in the name of athiesm.

I have nothing against christian individuals (I have several christian friends here in heathen China ), but I am anti ignorance.

I think a person should know about an organisation before they claim to be a part of it.

If you're going to praise the good work of christianity (and there is plenty to praise), then you should accept the intollerance, crime and lies perpetrated in its name too. If you refuse to acknowledge them, that's ignorant.

Talking religion to those that don't believe bores the hell outta me so I'm gonna take a pass on this thread (which has turned into a religion-bashing one). Sail your own ships how you will; I'll not judge you and I would ask the same sensibility from everyone else towards me.

Same from the other side. Naturalism requires no 'faith' and 'faith' allows for the denial of facts that don't suit. Therefore the ultimate 'is there a God?' question is a never-ending waste or time.

[AleHop 0]

Alehop - I am a rare bread of atheist...

I went to a C of E school. We had bible readings every day. I have personally read the king james bible twice. My parents (unlike most religious people) left it to me to decide whether I should be christened or not.

I don't know where you studied or read the Bible but what you write is full of mistakes and you were unable to answer two very simple questions. If you really read the Bible twice you should be able to answer the questions you made even if you don't believe in God.

The whole 'people don't understand' argument is way weak buddy.

Do you not even have enough confidence in your own position to try to 'help' me understand?

What do you really want to understand? That's the first thing I need to know to make you understand it. If you don't want to understand anything about Christ, the Bible or whatever then let it be.

Fact - Christians have murdered, raped, drowned, burried alive and stoned people to death throughout history in the name of christianity.

If you don't give me a conclusion on that fact I'll ask you the same question again. Can you see the difference between what Chrisitans do and what Jesus told us to do?

Fact - The bible dictates that stoning is an appropriate punishment for various crimes.

I suggest you do a bit of research into your own religion before you profess to know it.

Is that an answer for my 2nd question? I suggest you read the Bible once again. I think you can't see the difference between the Old and the New Testament.

I agree what 'Jesus taught you' is not what christians do...

Most christians live normal lives like most non-christians.

Some christians lie, cheat, steal, rape and murder just like some non-christians.

Fact - US prisons are filled with a disproportionately large number of christians and a disproportionately small number of atheists compared to the general population - hmm - who's got the moral compass?

Your fact lacks a conlusion once again.

I have nothing against christians per se (I have several christian friends even in heathen China), but I am anti ignorance.

I think a person should know about an organisation before they claim to be a part of it.

If you're going to praise the good work of christianity, then you have to accept the intollerance, crime and lies too. If you refuse to acknowledge them, then you're being ignorant.

Oh, I thought you were pro-ignorance. Honestly.

Organisation? What do you mean? Or maybe you think a belief can be considered as an organisation?

I praise the good work of any human being who deserve it. I refuse to acknowledge those crimes and lies you're talking about have anything to do with Christ. You can read the Bible a Zzillion times, you won't find such thing.

[yurp 0]

I don't know where you studied or read the Bible but what you write is full of mistakes and you were unable to answer two very simple questions. If you really read the Bible twice you should be able to answer the questions you made even if you don't believe in God.

What do you really want to understand? That's the first thing I need to know to make you understand it. If you don't want to understand anything about Christ, the Bible or whatever then let it be.

If you don't give me a conclusion on that fact I'll ask you the same question again. Can you see the difference between what Chrisitans do and what Jesus told us to do?

Is that an answer for my 2nd question? I suggest you read the Bible once again. I think you can't see the difference between the Old and the New Testament.

Your fact lacks a conlusion once again.

Oh, I thought you were pro-ignorance. Honestly.

Organisation? What do you mean? Or maybe you think a belief can be considered as an organisation?

I praise the good work of any human being who deserve it. I refuse to acknowledge those crimes and lies you're talking about have anything to do with Christ. You can read the Bible a Zzillion times, you won't find such thing.

There's just too much wrong with your post to even bother with.

I've had many fascinating debates with intelligent theists in my time - this isn't one of them.

You just keep on believing what you want if it makes you happy.

Cheerio.

[yurp 0]

Why does toast always fall butter-side-down?

[AleHop 0]

Religion. If God is the all seeing all knowing all forgiving, then if Lucifer asked forgiveness would he forgive him?

Lucifer knew he couldn't beat God but he was able to damage his creation in the worst way possible. He led Eve to eat the forbidden fruit and for that reason I don't think God can forgive him. Lucifer knew the consecuences of that crime.

[Kate's Dirty Sister 0]

Alehop - I am a rare bread of atheist...

I went to a C of E school. We had bible readings every day. I have personally read the king james bible cover to cover. My parents (unlike most religious people) left it to me to research and decide whether I should be christened or not.

I have a better understanding of the whole bible and christian history (as opposed to the cherry-picked version that we hear most of the time) than many christians.

Fact - Christians have murdered, raped, drowned, burried alive and stoned people to death throughout history in the name of christianity.

Fact - The bible dictates that stoning is an appropriate punishment for various crimes.

I agree...

And here lies the rub - many christians see the abhorence of stoning worshippers of false idols and killing heretics, but insist on literal interpretation of genesis - bizarre.

Moving on...

Most christians live normal lives like most non-christians.

Some christians lie, cheat, steal, rape and murder just like some non-christians.

Fact - US prisons are filled with a disproportionately large number of christians compared to the general population - moral compass?

Fact - Religious adherents have a lower than average education level - ignorance isn't required to have 'faith' but it helps.

Fact - No genocides have ever been committed in the name of athiesm.

I have nothing against christian individuals (I have several christian friends here in heathen China ), but I am anti ignorance.

I think a person should know about an organisation before they claim to be a part of it.

If you're going to praise the good work of christianity (and there is plenty to praise), then you should accept the intollerance, crime and lies perpetrated in its name too. If you refuse to acknowledge them, that's ignorant.

Same from the other side. Naturalism requires no 'faith' and 'faith' allows for the denial of facts that don't suit. Therefore the ultimate 'is there a God?' question is a never-ending waste or time.

I didn't answer your first post about tolerance because you don't seem to actually want the answers, if you do I have answers for every one of your posts and I'd be happy to shed light on the subject but I understand how a lot of people have strong beliefs about religions and just want to get it off their chest what they think and not listen to the answers, and that's fine. Each to their own.

But I am going to say this: Being a Christian means I accept I am a sinner, I know I'm a jerk and muppet and hypocrite and everything else rolled up into one. But Jesus died so I could be forgiven for being all those things. Just because someone is a Christian doesn't mean they are perfect, in fact it means they are willing to say they are the complete opposite. Yes Christians should try to live by the ways set out in the New Testament but try is the operative word here, yeah Christians fail miserably all the time and believe me we know it. And unfortunately many people do horrific acts in the name of religion, but as you have a good knowledge of the bible you will know these acts are in no way biblical. I know there are a lot of jumped up dingbats that think they are above everyone else but that is not exclusively Christians, I know a lot of people from many religions and races that have this endearing quality(!).

[Kate's Dirty Sister 0]

Why does toast always fall butter-side-down?

Have other toast related questions. Why does toast go cold so quickly!? And why does it smell so much better than it tastes?

[BradSpeedMan 6]

Nice thread, I will be thinking of lots of questions.

I've never thought about a Lion not living in a jungle! That is weird, if anyone does know the answer to that I'd like to know too.

I'd like to attempt to answer the religious one, I'm no scholar. (My answer will be based on the bible so you'll have to, for this moment accept what it says in the bible is true.)

The bible doesn't specifically address this issue but you can make an educated guess from the other principles in the bible. Humans have many obstructions that mean we can not know God fully whilst we are on earth, but the angels are continually in God's presence and know the fully awesomeness of God. So they have no excuse to turn away. Lucifer was a very important angel if not the highest of all the angels so he was one of the closest to God but he wanted to kick God off His throne and take over the rule of the universe so God cast Lucifer, along with his followers out of heaven, (although for a time he still had access to heaven and Gods throne.) To rebel despite what they knew, was the utmost of evil and probably results in God not giving them a chance to be forgiven.

God is all forgiving because he sent Jesus as a sacrifice to redeem all humans not angels, there is no get out clause for them. God referred to the angels that remained loyal as "elect angels", the ones God elects for salvation will be saved, clearly this does not included Satan and the angels that rebelled with him.

The fallen angels are completely devoted to opposing God, the bible gives no reason to think Satan and his angels would ask for forgiveness even if they were given the chance.

And you are not a contradiction for asking questions about something you don't believe. How would you know what you believe if you only ever know one side of things? And ignorant people are the worst kind of people, the only way not to be ignorant is to ask questions. I ask questions all the time, in fact most of my friends laugh at me I ask that many questions.

Edit: I don't know how I do it, but I always manage to make sentences in different sized text.

R u a believer. I guess this pretty much sums up the question...

[BradSpeedMan 6]

I didn't answer your first post about tolerance because you don't seem to actually want the answers, if you do I have answers for every one of your posts and I'd be happy to shed light on the subject but I understand how a lot of people have strong beliefs about religions and just want to get it off their chest what they think and not listen to the answers, and that's fine. Each to their own.

But I am going to say this: Being a Christian means I accept I am a sinner, I know I'm a jerk and muppet and hypocrite and everything else rolled up into one. But Jesus died so I could be forgiven for being all those things. Just because someone is a Christian doesn't mean they are perfect, in fact it means they are willing to say they are the complete opposite. Yes Christians should try to live by the ways set out in the New Testament but try is the operative word here, yeah Christians fail miserably all the time and believe me we know it. And unfortunately many people do horrific acts in the name of religion, but as you have a good knowledge of the bible you will know these acts are in no way biblical. I know there are a lot of jumped up dingbats that think they are above everyone else but that is not exclusively Christians, I know a lot of people from many religions and races that have this endearing quality(!).

true, it's christians that give God "a bad name" through misinterpretation or ignorance.

and Adam, you've touched on a subject that non-believers always use to crit God and his followers. God "spoke" and behaved differently to humans in the old testament. The symbol of God's love and gift to us, Jesus Christ, took all that away and we now live in a state of mercy.

[BradSpeedMan 6]

But that is contradictory to what my teacher tried to tell me. Lucifer was apparently cast out because he disobeyed God by not doing what he asked which was 'love human more than me'

Its interesting. I'm the biggest contradiction I know. An Athiest who has interest in that stuff.

Steph, thats very strange teaching. The bible states that Lucifer was cast out with a 3rd of the angels. As Kate stated, he was an angel like none other, above all the other angels. But he grew proud because of his beauty and the adulation he received, and he thought he could convince the angels so that he would rule by numbers. He made a bad calculated risk and pay'ed the price, only a3rd turned againt's God...

Sorry, I hope this is'nt too much preaching, It's just an interesting question you've asked

[Quiet One 15]

Having been an atheist my whole life, I found it weird when fellow godless commies non-believers get too beligerant against "religion". I find it useless to argue against it, when not rightly counterpoductive. Religion (from an atheist POV) is, or should be, non-existant. It is all about people, individuals. And if it is about people, you might discuss either it sensibly and in a very open minded fashion, condescendence or aggressiveness will take you nowhere. If you want to argue about the bad deeds done by religious people, then it should be enough to focus on them and try to explain whether they behavior is connected with their religion or not (I don't think Mark Chapman's religious background was the main reason for shooting Lennon, for example).

And to argue with people that is obviously (or, at least, presumably) your intellectual and moral equal in a condescending tone because of the deeds of paedophilic priests, for example, is to say the least, very rude and inconducent. I doubt the religious people (Mike, Brad, Alex, Tommy) here is responsible for the wrongdoings of abusive priests, or the racism of some fundamentalist christians, or the terrorism from some fundamentalist muslims, or the attacks on disarmed people from the Israeli Government.

You can argue whether these wrongdoings are precisely because of religion (though I think that would be oversimplifying things too much), but that calls for a very complex debate. A debate that goes beyond the capabilities of posts in a forum. So, in the end, I think it will accomplish nothing more than offending people for no reason.

I'm not sure this post came as I wanted it to be.

[Argento Reloaded 1]

But I am going to say this: Being a Christian means I accept I am a sinner, I know I'm a jerk and muppet and hypocrite and everything else rolled up into one. But Jesus died so I could be forgiven for being all those things. Just because someone is a Christian doesn't mean they are perfect, in fact it means they are willing to say they are the complete opposite.

Another case of poor quality design! God must learm TQM and QFD (quality function deployment) in order to design better creatures next time! But if you consider we are born as images of God... then God must be a nerd!!! (and worst thing is he is a nerd with no sex at all)

[BradSpeedMan 6]

Having been an atheist my whole life, I found it weird when fellow godless commies non-believers get too beligerant against "religion". I find it useless to argue against it, when not rightly counterpoductive. Religion (from an atheist POV) is, or should be, non-existant. It is all about people, individuals. And if it is about people, you might discuss either it sensibly and in a very open minded fashion, condescendence or aggressiveness will take you nowhere. If you want to argue about the bad deeds done by religious people, then it should be enough to focus on them and try to explain whether they behavior is connected with their religion or not (I don't think Mark Chapman's religious background was the main reason for shooting Lennon, for example).

And to argue with people that is obviously (or, at least, presumably) your intellectual and moral equal in a condescending tone because of the deeds of paedophilic priests, for example, is to say the least, very rude and inconducent. I doubt the religious people (Mike, Brad, Alex, Tommy) here is responsible for the wrongdoings of abusive priests, or the racism of some fundamentalist christians, or the terrorism from some fundamentalist muslims, or the attacks on disarmed people from the Israeli Government.

You can argue whether these wrongdoings are precisely because of religion (though I think that would be oversimplifying things too much), but that calls for a very complex debate. A debate that goes beyond the capabilities of posts in a forum. So, in the end, I think it will accomplish nothing more than offending people for no reason.

I'm not sure this post came as I wanted it to be.

Can't believe you wanted to take a sabbatical from TF1, when you contribute such profounding points. I can't agree more Andres, thanks

[BradSpeedMan 6]

actually let's get on again with the thread topic....

[Quiet One 15]

Can't believe you wanted to take a sabbatical from TF1, when you contribute such profounding points. I can't agree more Andres, thanks

Easy, if I didn't take a sabbatical people would not make such idolizing posts about me

I should do that more often.

Look! I'm leaving! Say good things about me

Seriously, I needed to regain some peace to be able to post back here without becoming a fuming troll. Now I'm just a calm troll.

[Max Mosley 2]

Not for long.

[yurp 0]

I didn't answer your first post about tolerance because you don't seem to actually want the answers, if you do I have answers for every one of your posts and I'd be happy to shed light on the subject but I understand how a lot of people have strong beliefs about religions and just want to get it off their chest what they think and not listen to the answers, and that's fine. Each to their own.

But I am going to say this: Being a Christian means I accept I am a sinner, I know I'm a jerk and muppet and hypocrite and everything else rolled up into one. But Jesus died so I could be forgiven for being all those things. Just because someone is a Christian doesn't mean they are perfect, in fact it means they are willing to say they are the complete opposite. Yes Christians should try to live by the ways set out in the New Testament but try is the operative word here, yeah Christians fail miserably all the time and believe me we know it. And unfortunately many people do horrific acts in the name of religion, but as you have a good knowledge of the bible you will know these acts are in no way biblical. I know there are a lot of jumped up dingbats that think they are above everyone else but that is not exclusively Christians, I know a lot of people from many religions and races that have this endearing quality(!).

Thank you - A good and well thought through post - And we agree on 95% of it.

I myself accept that I do wrong on occasion. I apolygise when I do. Ask my wife, my friends, people on this forum etc.

I don't think anyone's perfect - christian or not. I also believe we all have inate morality through empathy and that this has a strong evolutionary purpose and so is entirely natural.

I agree that jumped up dingbats come from all religions and from amongst atheists too.

The red bit is where I see problems though...

If people do good things in the name of their religion people say 'praise the lord'.

If atheists do good things simply because they are good things to do, no one says 'praise the non-existence of god.' do they?

But more importantly - when religious people commit evil in the name of religion, we call it unchristian and blame the individual rather than the religion.

To me - that puts religion in a no-loose situation. Religion takes the credit for the good but no responsibility for the bad done in its name.

To me, a responsible individual or collective (such as a religion) should accept that any bad done in its name was enabled by its existence, just as any good was.

I also take you as a moderate and intelligent person, so although you may not agree with the attacks being made on the science curriculum in the US, your chosen religion is facilitating those attacks. You may not see the whole 'we should teach creation in the science classroom' idea as dangerous, but believe me, when we take such enormous steps back in progress and turn away in the face of enlightenment, we start along a very dangerous path. We cease pursuing truth and start pursuing prejudice, intollerance and personal agendas.

Look at everything around you. There is practically nothing that isn't a result of the scientific pursuit of truth. That very method is what many modern Christian sects in the US would desregard for their own gain (cheifly monetary). You may say that's unchristian of them, or not what god/jesus taught, but the very existence of christianity facilitates that greed and those actions and often makes those vices seem excusable to the individuals who perpetrate them.

[AleHop 0]

The red bit is where I see problems though...

If people do good things in the name of their religion people say 'praise the lord'.

If atheists do good things simply because they are good things to do, no one says 'praise the non-existence of god.' do they?

If people do good things can we just go out and celebrate it. You can say cheers, praise the non-existence of god, praise the lord or whatever you prefer. And let others say what they please.

But more importantly - when religious people commit evil in the name of religion, we call it unchristian and blame the individual rather than the religion.

Religion is like football. You can't blame football for what hooligans do. If you find where Jesus said we should behave like hooligans then we could have a debate about it.

To me - that puts religion in a no-loose situation. Religion takes the credit for the good but no responsibility for the bad done in its name.

To me, a responsible individual or collective (such as a religion) should accept that any bad done in its name was enabled by its existence, just as any good was.

Around 8.000 priests and nuns were killed in Spain between 1934 and 1939. Can we blame atheism for that? Is atheism in a no-lose situation? No, atheism never killed anybody but you don't speak like a genuine atheist.

I also take you as a moderate and intelligent person, so although you may not agree with the attacks being made on the science curriculum in the US, your chosen religion is facilitating those attacks. You may not see the whole 'we should teach creation in the science classroom' idea as dangerous, but believe me, when we take such enormous steps back in progress and turn away in the face of enlightenment, we start along a very dangerous path. We cease pursuing truth and start pursuing prejudice, intollerance and personal agendas.

Her religion doesn't even know what you're talking about. Science and God can never ever contradict themselves, that really is a no-lose situation. Wrong beliefs, agendas, prejudices, intollerance, etc. are not her religion.

Look at everything around you. There is practically nothing that isn't a result of the scientific pursuit of truth. That very method is what many modern Christian sects in the US would desregard for their own gain (cheifly monetary). You may say that's unchristian of them, or not what god/jesus taught, but the very existence of christianity facilitates that greed and those actions and often makes those vices seem excusable to the individuals who perpetrate them.

That's what I call prejudice and intollerance, Adams.

[Kopite Girl 0]

Does anybody want to start a religion topic?

I think would be better!

[yurp 0]

This is a much better post Alehop, so I think it credits a reply...

If people do good things can we just go out and celebrate it. You can say cheers, praise the non-existence of god, praise the lord or whatever you prefer. And let others say what they please.

I never said religious shouldn't be able to claim a good deed for god, only that they often do. Which is true. Religious people often atribute good deeds to the following of their religions. No?

I then said an atheist would never claim praise for their lack of belief in god when they do something good. This is also true no?

I am very much for freedom of expression. I am also in favour of people and organisations (the christian church is an organisation) taking responsibility. My chief concern is that religions do not take responsibility for the evil committed by people using religion to excuse their behaviour. I think it should - just like BP must take responsibility for the guys who built that oil rig badly.

Religion is like football. You can't blame football for what hooligans do. If you find where Jesus said we should behave like hooligans then we could have a debate about it.

Ah but as a footy fan, I do blame football's governing bodies for facilitating hooliganism. Most people within the football governing bodies recognise that it is their responsibility to take actions against hooliganism, have done so and continue to do so. So even though religion is very unlike football, your metaphor supports my argument quite nicely.

Second - you keep asking me to concentrate on what Jesus said or did, so let's clear that up now - My issue is not with Jesus. What I am discussing here is religion in general and christianity more specifically. To me it appears Jesus and his teachings have very little bearing on what modern day christianity has become.

Around 8.000 priests and nuns were killed in Spain between 1934 and 1939. Can we blame atheism for that? Is atheism in a no-lose situation? No, atheism never killed anybody but you don't speak like a genuine atheist.

This is the common mistake (often made by theists) of misunderstanding atheism as a belief system like a religion. Atheism is the absence of a belief system, not a rival religion.

You can blame facism, nazism, communism etc etc for many deaths, but not atheism - its not an ideology, belief or organisation. It is indeed in a no-lose situation, it is also in a no-win situation. To win or lose first it must be. Atheism is the 'non-being' of religious belief.

Equally, the destruction of all religion would not represent a victory for atheism because without theism there is no atheism. Atheism would no longer have any meaning as the antithesis of a nonexistant thing.

Her religion doesn't even know what you're talking about. Science and God can never ever contradict themselves, that really is a no-lose situation. Wrong beliefs, agendas, prejudices, intollerance, etc. are not her religion.

I don't really understand what you want to say in this bit, but my point in the above paragraph was this - christianity provides the platform and support network on which has been built the anti-progress, anti-knowledge and ultimately anti-truth lobby that wants creationism taught as science.

As for god contradicting himself...

The guys writing the bible sure did contradict themselves. Since the bible is supposed to be the word of god, I find it hard to understand how that statement can be justified.

When science contradicts itself a further pursuit of the truth is required and followed until the initial contradiction is understood.

When the bible contradicts itself we say, 'yeah, well, errrm, its down to interpretation, but its all correct, because hey, god said it.'

That's what I call prejudice and intollerance, Adams.

I still think you're missing my point...

Either accept that religion is not responsible for any of the good its adherents do OR accept that religion should also be held responsible for the evil people do in its name or under its guise.

i.e. Religion is responsible for all the good and bad done in its name OR none of either.

To say we should thank religion for the good but blame the individual for the bad is hypocritical.

Anyway - a much better post than before. Thanks for the effort.

[yurp 0]

Does anybody want to start a religion topic?

I think would be better!

Nope

[Jez 0]

Some good posts in this thread.

[yurp 0]

Some good posts in this thread.

Nah - This is not even remotely close to a proper debate. I'm playing with kid gloves at the moment.

I'm resticting my focus to how religions (like many organisations) enable actions outside the bounds of the common morality they purport to teach.

I haven't even begun to talk about how religions require and promote falsehoods and fictions outside reality to the detriment of human progress and peace and to the advantage of a few.

Then there's a plethora of research and knowledge that explains vast swathes of misunderstandings that were previously coopted and falsely explained by religious dogma (perhaps not deliberately, but falsely all the same).

Then there are the newer lies about scientific method and discovery that are promoted by modern day evangelicals who see no wrong in promoting their religion through the deception of the weak or ignorant.