Questions You Have Always Pondered On

[Kopite Girl 0]

Talking about open/closed mindedness.......

Alex. You remember the debate I had with you over religion not so long ago?

Whilst I've not changed my mind what I think about it, I think you've made me understand why people choose it, and live by it.

I understand your belief a lot better. You have opened my thought process and have made me accept that everybody is different regardless of what they believe.

I don't wish to insult you and I certainly do not wish to disrespect you by not being completely honest with you but during that time I admit I thought you were rather a religious stalwart to put it nicely. You probably thought I was an arrogant bitch, but I see that you are just a genuinely good person, who fights for what he believes in and has the patience to take on board what others say.

I've learned a very good lesson. Thank you for that.

(Doesn't mean to say I like religion. Still far from it!)

Thanks.

[dribbler 6]

Too late, Steph. You're going to burn in hell for the things you said about religion (well, you would go there if hell actually existed, which it doesn't, only in the minds of scaremongers and the brain washed. I'll see you there).

I'm going to write a big fat book about atheism and go knock on some Christian doors, especially at meal times or when 'Songs Of Praise' is on the television.

[Kopite Girl 0]

Woohoo Steve. Party on with Mr Lucifer! At least it doesn't get cold eh!

[pabloh20 1]

Too late, Steph. You're going to burn in hell for the things you said about religion (well, you would go there if hell actually existed, which it doesn't, only in the minds of scaremongers and the brain washed. I'll see you there).

I'm going to write a big fat book about atheism and go knock on some Christian doors, especially at meal times or when 'Songs Of Praise' is on the television.

I didn't know doors could be Christian And surely that would be an ipad app? You're so 20th century, Steve

[dribbler 6]

I didn't know doors could be Christian And surely that would be an ipad app? You're so 20th century, Steve

I see what you did there.

[Argento Reloaded 1]

Talking about open/closed mindedness.......

You probably thought I was an arrogant bitch...

I like this side of you:naughty:

I´ve opened my mind too. From now on I´ll start my own religion "Argentia" is easy if you want some relief and a definitive antidote to Lucifer and his followers you must give 20% of your earnings and I promise, i refund all the money if you don´t go to "Argentia Heaven" when you die. Period.

[Kopite Girl 0]

I want a brochure first!

[Max Mosley 2]

Yes and more pertinently, can you beat 72 virgins?

Back on topic, as far as you ever can be on TF1, I think Adam raised many good points and although he was very forceful, we all know I've been there too. And it seems to me that morality is likely innate in a basic sense but then fine-tuned by socialisation effects. The latter are a bit like how all lefties passionately hate religion!

[BradSpeedMan 6]

Can anyone remember the title of that other thread that went haywire about religion??? About long discussions with Tommy and co, surely we can find it? 1000000 bucks for the poster who does!

[AleHop 0]

Alex. You remember the debate I had with you over religion not so long ago?

Yes, but it was more about Hitler vs. Stalin than about God, faith, religion, etc... I remember you didn't like religion but I didn't feel you were arrogant. I understand why people don't like religion, sometimes I blame religious people for that, when they use the name of God for their own benefit. Religion is for the benefit of all humans, even atheists, or it isn't a trustworthy religion. But you can't expect religion be perfect, the concept is, but religion is practiced, taught and administered by humans. On the other hand there are groups of people that fight against religion, they say religion wash people's brains but what they really want is to wash people's brains with other concepts.

I think both theists and atheists have to be aware of it.

@Adams: I've found an interesting debate, I haven't finished reading it but it looks like a TF1 debate.

http://www.leaderu.c...ig-taylor0.html

[maure 1]

Mud is character building stuff.

[Autumnpuma 0]

Too late, Steph. You're going to burn in hell for the things you said about religion (well, you would go there if hell actually existed, which it doesn't, only in the minds of scaremongers and the brain washed. I'll see you there).

I'm going to write a big fat book about atheism and go knock on some Christian doors, especially at meal times or when 'Songs Of Praise' is on the television.

Yes and more pertinently, can you beat 72 virgins?

Back on topic, as far as you ever can be on TF1, I think Adam raised many good points and although he was very forceful, we all know I've been there too. And it seems to me that morality is likely innate in a basic sense but then fine-tuned by socialisation effects. The latter are a bit like how all lefties passionately hate religion!

Yes, Adam's arguments were good ones and if not for the ridicule, contempt and lack of respect for persons of faith, I would say his posts here are some of the finest this forum has seen on this topic.

Mud is character building stuff.

Hopefully for the slinger as well as the target.

[yurp 0]

Too late, Steph. You're going to burn in hell for the things you said about religion (well, you would go there if hell actually existed, which it doesn't, only in the minds of scaremongers and the brain washed. I'll see you there).

I'm going to write a big fat book about atheism and go knock on some Christian doors, especially at meal times or when 'Songs Of Praise' is on the television.

My questions were disrespectful but your joke is funny.

...selective moral outrage?

Mud is character building stuff.

Indeed it is - the lynching has made me stronger. (irony)

Back on topic, as far as you ever can be on TF1, I think Adam raised many good points and although he was very forceful, we all know I've been there too. And it seems to me that morality is likely innate in a basic sense but then fine-tuned by socialisation effects. The latter are a bit like how all lefties passionately hate religion!

Very true - forceful, robust, combatitive, challenging, rigorous.

Naughty naughty!

All of my friends who are religious are left wing. They would tell you that their religious convictions lead them inevitably to a liberal political outlook.

Of course both sides of the political spectrum would claim religion for their own - bums on seats, ticks in boxes and all that.

@Adams: I've found an interesting debate, I haven't finished reading it but it looks like a TF1 debate.

http://www.leaderu.c...ig-taylor0.html

Thanks Alehop - I'll read it.

Sadly, while you and Brad worked very hard to demonstrate how tollerant, honest and open thiests can be, Mike has demonstrated his intollerance, dishonesty, lack of desire to discuss religious questions openly or fairly and willingness to insult and personally attack me for what I have said.

Even after I offered a chance of peace and expressed my sorrow that Mike felt the way he did about my beliefs, he continued with his personal attacks showing no remorse or regret whatsoever.

That leads me back to thinking that religion allows people to justify all kinds of disgusting behaviour. That is really not the conclusion I want to reach after so much fine posting from you and Brad.

[maure 1]

That leads me back to thinking that religion allows people to justify all kinds of disgusting behaviour.

Nope. That is not an inherent characteristic of religion. It is an inherent characteristic of human beings.

[yurp 0]

Nope. That is not an inherent characteristic of religion. It is an inherent characteristic of human beings.

That's a nicer way to think about it - thank you.

And Alehop and Brad have demonstrated that the characteristic not a uniform one.

EDIT

Saying that - I think you misread my post slightly - I said religion allows people to justify digusting behaviour.

Not that religion causes people to behave disgustingly.

I agree that the individual is ultimately responsible for their bad behaviour.

[maure 1]

I didn't misread your post and you got the point.

However, I wouldn't say that it is a nicer way of thinking about it. In fact, it would be a far easier reality to deal with if we could blame religion or whatever for the brutal things we do to each other and the planet... but such argument is infantile. Unfortunately, it just come down to us and, as I've said many times before, we are a failure as a species.

[yurp 0]

I didn't misread your post and you got the point.

However, I wouldn't say that it is a nicer way of thinking about it. In fact, it would be a far easier reality to deal with if we could blame religion or whatever for the brutal things we do to each other and the planet... but such argument is infantile. Unfortunately, it just come down to us and, as I've said many times before, we are a failure as a species.

Totally agree and that brings us nicely full circle...

I don't think religious/political/ideological beliefs are responsible for individual actions whether they be good or bad.

Those beliefs provide a method by which the individual can side-step their responsibility (for bad behaviour).

Those beliefs provide a cause celebre to glorify and attribute responsibility to (for good behaviour).

In both cases the shifting of responsibility is illusory. The responsibility remains that of the individual.

The range of reactions from people holding the same beliefs (both theistic and atheistic) demonstrates the individual nature of those reactions and the accompanying responsibility for those actions.

The discussion has also revealed a wide range in the extent to which individuals are willing to accept that personal responsibility.

[Kopite Girl 0]

What is that to do with Mike and having a go or his view for defending something he believes in?

I didn't see him using religion when he as you said personally attacked you.

I've lost track of this ****ing thread. Its useless trying to keep up.

Adam. With all due respect from one non-believer to another, this isn't a classroom. Thats not a personal attack. Its a piece of advice.

Accept the fact that its human nature to get angry when it appears the thing you believe in is being attacked. It has NOTHING to do with using religion to get out of something.

Before you respond. Remember. I'm not talking about the debating. I'm on about recognising not everybody will agree and what could be misconstrued as a personal attack can be taken both ways. You said you were sorry Mike felt the way he does. If you really were, you'd ask what it was that truly offended him and try to resolve the bad feeling. You haven't.

This is probably a personal shot at you more than Mike's post was. But I think you understand now.

[yurp 0]

What is that to do with Mike and having a go or his view for defending something he believes in?

Nothing. Mike's actions are his own responsibility.

I didn't see him using religion when he as you said personally attacked you.

He didn't use religion, he just let the insults fly. That's why I tried to keep the debate on topic with Alehop and Brad instead - which turned out to be really interesting.

I've lost track of this ****ing thread. Its useless trying to keep up.

easily done.

Adam. With all due respect from one non-believer to another, this isn't a classroom. Thats not a personal attack. Its a piece of advice.

Accept the fact that its human nature to get angry when it appears the thing you believe in is being attacked. It has NOTHING to do with using religion to get out of something.

Yes - I totally agree, which is why I have attempted to keep the debate impersonal and on topic.

Before you respond. Remember. I'm not talking about the debating. I'm on about recognising not everybody will agree and what could be misconstrued as a personal attack can be taken both ways. You said you were sorry Mike felt the way he does. If you really were, you'd ask what it was that truly offended him and try to resolve the bad feeling. You haven't.

Sorry but this is the bit you have wrong Steph.

Please read my last dozen or so posts. I asked Mike to explain what he found offensive about 4(?) times. I said sorry that he was angry and sorry that I had caused his anger. I said I was sorry that he felt the way he did and thought what he had written about me. I told him that I still think he's a good guy. I have accepted that I should be more empathetic to people who identify themselves with their religion. I have said I would work on that part of my nature. I have tollerated and forgiven his posts because any other course would lead to more arguments which I'd rather not have. His only response has been to throw new insults and unsupported accusations my way post after post after post after post after post. I have made every effort I could to be reasonable, but I'm honestly lost for a solution and sick of trying. How many times should I say sorry? How many times should I attempt to make peace? Seriously, what am I supposed to do exactly?

Mike - if you are reading this I'll say it all again - I am sorry you took my views on religion or my questioning of religious quandries as offensive - they were not meant personally in any way and I think Alehop and Brad understood that. I don't know what else I can say. I am a challenging person, I like to question everything thoroughly. That is how I am.

If you want to take the opportunity to put aside our differences then great. If not. So be it.

This is probably a personal shot at you more than Mike's post was. But I think you understand now.

Your post is not a personal attack at all Steph. You have been quite right in almost everything you've said.

[maure 1]

Hopefully for the slinger as well as the target.

Hopefully.

But the expression itself is a somewhat famous NZ quote. Apparently, in a small NZ island south of the South Island, it rains all the freaking time and there is mud everywhere. A visitor asked a local about it and the local shrugged and mumbled "mud is character building stuff".

I always liked the comment and what is tells about reality and self.

[yurp 0]

Hopefully.

But the expression itself is a somewhat famous NZ quote. Apparently, in a small NZ island south of the South Island, it rains all the freaking time and there is mud everywhere. A visitor asked a local about it and the local shrugged and mumbled "mud is character building stuff".

I always liked the comment and what is tells about reality and self.

I always liked the 'his name is mud' story. But it turns out it didn't originate from John Wilkes Booth's doctor friend at all.

[Quiet One 15]

as I've said many times before, we are a failure as a species.

True, but only because of Eddie Jordan.

[maure 1]

True, but only because of Eddie Jordan.

Elaborate, mad man, elaborate.

[BradSpeedMan 6]

True, but only because of Eddie Jordan.

classic!

[Jez 0]

The result of all the shared opinions in this thread is that I want to give all you guys a great big hug. Carry on.