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Sakae

2017 Ferrari

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It would amount to an admission that RB won the 4 championships and not him.

I say (and hope) that Vettel will fight on and earn some proper respect, in spite of it all. Hamilton has done it somewhat in his own way.

In any case, a top team hosting the big c#cks will always be interesting. So, yeah, pick a couple from the Hamilton-Vettel-Alonso triplet and let the blood flow.

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Please do tell when and how Hamilton earned any respect. My memory must be fading, since all what I can recall he has won populist vote with strong nationalist undertones in a rocket ship built by Mercedes with competition in handcuffs. Totally different situation from winning ways by Vettel, when both, Alonso and Hamilton were beaten by him while competing in level playing field. Its hard to accept that, I know, but there is a statement about the truth. The truth is, RBR was never the sole car which was continuously the strongest in the pack for four years, whereas it is exactly what we have with Mercedes deal.

Quote

"When time shall have softened passion and prejudice, when Reason shall have stripped the mask from misrepresentation, then Justice, holding evenly her scales, will require much of past censure and praise to change places."

  

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You are correct that Hamilton's career has been muscled by many, many external factors. His 1st championship was shameful (lack of skill) and his 3rd was based on punking Rosberg (the media again). But his 2nd was good.

Vettel, well, you are clearly biased here. To say he fought anyone "while competing in level playing field" is plain ludicrous. His 1st championship was an artifact of RB using Webber as bait while repugnantly destroying his own championship chances in the process. From there, it has been supercars, shamefuls Multi-21s, and "let him pass or else" as in Brazil 2002.

The thing is that I dearly rooted for both Hamilton and Vettel at first and both "broke my heart" so-to-speak. The Hamilton thing died quickly, 6 or 7 races into his 1st season as he accused his own team of fixing the race and unbelievably got away with the proven lie. He's never recovered from that, millionaire or not. And so Vettel was my guy for many, many seasons... until, well, Abu Dhabi 2010. What happened was right down criminal and if Whiting had any morals whatsoever, the entire team would have been permanently expelled from F1. Granted, Whiting had done far worse before and has done far worse after, so there is that.

Having said this (my opinion), please make your case regarding Vettel. I'm curious.

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Yep well said, I've mentioned before how dominant Vettel and redbull were but it's brushed of in biased attitude and shopping lists of excuses. Not to mention the disgrace and attitude he had for fellow team members and teammates after a number of incidents. Dirty webber didn't  help him after webber asked for his help in 2010, but Seb wanted it himself, webber was miles ahead in points and IMO for Seb let alone redbull risk there first title in 2010 because they didn't want to back webber early on and tell Seb to stay in line and risk it all basically on the reliability of themselves but more so the opposition is a joke and so amatuer it's not funny. Just lucky others had issues and Seb could capitalise otherwise redbull would've lost it for Seb and webber due to plain ignorance by redbull and Seb, glad someone else sees it how it is. Very refreshing.

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Dear maure, I should (wisely) say at this point "I see", and retreat, however, being an argumentative beast living out of mainstream for most of my life, I am not going away; at least not yet.

Beauty of Vettel's career is, that no one has to make a case for him. His track record speaks on its own in pretty good and kind terms. There were some variances during his career, but not at all those were unique to this racer only, so, what about it? Maybe because there is nothing more, detractors are latching to straws today. Multi whatever is brought up frequently, yet from what we know today, Webber disobeyed similar order before Seb has, however his act apparently has found no echo in partisan media (and fans) as inconvenient truth for their agenda, namely dwarf non-Anglo competition. Boring tactics manipulating gullible fans!

The year of 2014 is an anomaly blip in Vettel’s career partially assisted from pit-wall in one or two races. BTW, Rosberg had to do the same for Hamilton, but who cares? I am not really surprised that detractors either do not remember, or choose to ignore fact, that Vettel was asked to let DR through once or twice, and he has done so, only to be ridiculed later for it. I am however puzzled your own indignation over a race in 2010, yet nothing much about last year Mexico where FIA in a person of Whiting has really outdone himself. [Cheating Hamilton, Verstappen, whining DR]

Life goes on. It is my opinion that it is a slippery slope to get involved in micro-analyses of races as such, for one argument one can always find similar counterargument. I am rather taking a step back today, and looking at large picture. Prior 2014 competition had free hand to improve, and beat Vettel hands down. They however failed, and no amount of smoke and mirror pseudo rhetoric will change that. Last three years is however history over which I need to hold my nose every time it pops up. WCC in 2014 - maybe. Last 3x WDC and 2 x WCC is however a bad prank, and nothing more in my view.

Webber, as a footnote, not good enough, never had a chance against Vettel, skillful in manipulating media and public opinion, but not many skills on the track. Forgettable.

 

 

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True to an extent, I'll admit webber simply couldn't cut it when he had intense competition or under immense pressure. But if his car was setup half decent and everything works out for him, he won races and win by 20 odd seconds. Here's the issues I have with Vettel fans who think these two major incidents are completely fine and the other drivers fault.

1- Turkey 2010

how the heck is it webbers fault when these two collided in the race that year? Webber was defending and taking the natural defending line on the exit of the previous corner. Vettel going on the grass to pass webber, this wasn't the part the bothered me, but for Vettel to then chop across webber and hit him, then blame webber for not leaving him room when the rule stipulates as long as a car widths space is left its fine and webber did that, so like wtf Vettel fans? All sebs fault here.

2- multi 21

this is just bs this one, against team orders and repetitive reminders  he goes and does his own thing to the point of saying he feared for his life and was crying, cmon be realistic and not so bloody biased it's hard to take any realistic opinions from Vettel or Ferrari fans as they see them always doing the right things. Give me a god damn break.

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It's too bad that no supporting evidence at all has been provided but there is nothing new to this. I have yet to come across anyone making a proper stand for Vettel. It is understandable. By the book, Vettel has broken nearly every record there is and he should be blasting the field in his sleep. Yet there he is, a next to nothing since the "tricks" dissipated. How so? Reality for him and his fans (myself included) is a complete shock.

It is true that I expect little from Hamilton or Vettel at this point. But it is also true that I hope for the best from both. Nothing would make me happier than to see Vettel kicking arse this season. I don't expect it anymore, as I said, but I still hope it will happen. Dearly. As things stand, though, the best cars are compromised. I'm not saying that these two won't deliver somewhat solid, perhaps respectable, performances. But the ace racers that their records claim they are, well, that's the stuff of fantasy.

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Is there a claim for which you are seeking supporting evidence? If so, I think you need to be specific on your own, maure. With respect to the claim that we had no PU and affiliated regulatory restrictions prior 2014 is self evident, thus I think there is no need to argue about that. There were some myths propagated about Vettel's driving, however I think he has dispelled every single one of them on more than one occasion, despite that some people will always come up with double standard or one applied to a one racer only; that unfortunately has not changed. For example, he needs best car to win - well, he won with TR, he won with Ferrari, he won with RBR and that car despite being good, was not the best all the time; not continuously for four years, yet those claims do continue, even on this forum. 

Newey did not drive that car, and as an example, on more than one occasion Seb has came from behind through the field, despite claims that he cannot overtake. Lowe was heard more than once that McLaren during his tenure was match for RB in some races, I am however not going to waste my time googling internet for quotes of that kind, sorry. Vettel has good starts, and that kept him in the front. Some media even today cannot believe he is probably a better starter than Hamilton, and wondering how is Ferrari cheating their boy.

Do you need statistics? In a year - last year - which many in media described as poor for him, however not much was discussed about just one parameter of his driving, namely, that he was the only driver who was not overtaken by anyone of his peers in all races, but in one. (Verstappen did it under questionable circumstances, and Vettel to avoid him has run rather off road than clash, or argue with FiA about it). Is this proving anything? Maybe only that he is a better driver that many superficial claims say so.

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The thing is that I've read a couple of your posts and I know that you are an intelligent guy. So arguments such as "Vettel can drive or win" are, well, inane and demonstrate nothing. Anyone on the field can drive and most could win with Vettel's cars. I did celebrate the TR win (it was a confirmation of my interest in him) but I knew then and still know that it was a fluke. He was strong, mind you, not unlike Hamilton was once.

Now. Is Vettel a good racer? You bet. In my gut, he is above Hamilton, another solid racer on his own.

Then, again, I think Hamilton only deserves 1 of his crowns, as I've already said.

So, do I think Vettel's skill is represented by his record? I simply cannot. Two of his championships were the direct outcome of questionable (at best) circumstances on the very races that decided those championships. The remaining two are dirty as well, here and there, enough to give the matter another look, imo.

Since this whole endeavor is a matter of opinion and personal estimation, a labor that in no way whatsoever affects the drivers in question nor their achievements (or lack of), I will add that on the matter of deserved championships, I feel Kimi should have 1 more. I know I'm biased but I see it there.

Button, a guy everyone likes (including me), deserves 0 championships, imo.

So, again, back to Vettel, what do I make of him? I cannot make but less, a lot less than his record shows. You yourself can spot (and actually list) some of the issues. I wish they weren't there. But they are. Moreover, the future is already here.

What I mean is that Vettel landed 4 championships like a freaking Norse god with a brutal machine gun. You can slap Newey silly if you so want, but following those championships, Ricciardo walked all over Vettel. This was a new guy to the team, a team that had hired him to be Vettel's majordomo, much like Kovalainen was once to another superstar. And yet, Vettel was crushed and had to take off.

Again, there is enough to give the matter another look, imo.

Anyway, it is clear that where I see a driver, you see some kind of emotional investment. That's fine. It is part of the game, for some. And, like I said, I wish the boy well, for everyone's sake but specially for his because, as you, he, and everyone on planet F1 knows, if Vettel does not deliver ASAP, well, there is not going to be a place on earth to hide the evident origin of those 4 championships.

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On 2/5/2017 at 10:18 AM, maure said:

You are correct that Hamilton's career has been muscled by many, many external factors. His 1st championship was shameful (lack of skill) and his 3rd was based on punking Rosberg (the media again). But his 2nd was good.

Vettel, well, you are clearly biased here. To say he fought anyone "while competing in level playing field" is plain ludicrous. His 1st championship was an artifact of RB using Webber as bait while repugnantly destroying his own championship chances in the process. From there, it has been supercars, shamefuls Multi-21s, and "let him pass or else" as in Brazil 2002.

The thing is that I dearly rooted for both Hamilton and Vettel at first and both "broke my heart" so-to-speak. The Hamilton thing died quickly, 6 or 7 races into his 1st season as he accused his own team of fixing the race and unbelievably got away with the proven lie. He's never recovered from that, millionaire or not. And so Vettel was my guy for many, many seasons... until, well, Abu Dhabi 2010. What happened was right down criminal and if Whiting had any morals whatsoever, the entire team would have been permanently expelled from F1. Granted, Whiting had done far worse before and has done far worse after, so there is that.

Having said this (my opinion), please make your case regarding Vettel. I'm curious.

Dear Maure,

To say that Vettel did'nt fought anyone, including Webber.... is plain ridiculous. For 2 of his championship years there was someone else that could've won the championship. Vettel never had a plus 2 sec dominant car that the Merc drivers had these last 3 years. His advantage were mostly 0,3 secs!!!  0,3 SECONDS!!!  Rarely did it go into the ,5 second mark... Less than Schumacher and the Merc drivers ever had! Vettel's precision and speed made the difference. If you want to compare check where his teammate ended up, who has exactly the same equipment that Vettel had. While they tried to limit RedBullRacing at every turn!  What are you talking about???

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@maure 

I have no doubt you put a lot of thought into your glimpse of history, maure, and thanks for that. However at the end, appreciative as I am of voice of moderation that precipitates through lines, one cannot escape acknowledgement, that we are dealing here with personal bias. I am not sure about you, but I have no access to data acquisition records, thus I can only deliver my perception of optics, rather than analysis on facts. There is no clarity which car was “best” prior 2014, as we are witnessing in recent years. There was no clarity when it was driver, rather than machine who should receive praise. There is however a sequential record of race results on the books. It is something I pay attention when circumstances and situational analysis is too close to be defined accurately. Expecting “wow” factor to shake you up?  I haven’t had that one for years, but is it burden we should place on driver’s shoulders? Intuitively speaking, I doubt that. When one driver does not deliver, his fault (probably), when no one delivers, I would like to talk to somebody else than (my) driver. My last wow factor dates actually back when Michael Schumacher has rolled his magic on Saturdays during qualifying. My teeth based manicure attests to it.

 How anyone in the front of TV can prove statements of a kind “Alonso got out of his car more than car could deliver,” or inversely, “Vettel did not get all what car could deliver?” I cannot, but then, I’ve never raced (just drove very fast and probably over limit). Was RBR cheating? I have no clue. Do you know more? Rule book is vague enough for technical staff to derive differing interpretations of the book, and I assume it is plausible they all do, just as penalties for crossing the (elusive) borderline are not large enough for them not to push limits out and beyond, while letting FiA to tell them what they think. I live with that; not happy, but I do. It’s part of F1 make up.

Opinion that DR walked all over Vettel in 2014 is exaggerated IMO, and not as bad as it sounds, if one really checks details in small chunks from pre-season and where they were end of the season, assuming you can objectively factor in whether Vettel, the same Vettel from the past, really cared, or just went through the motions once his deal with Maranello was on track. Someone once counted test distance covered in 2014 pre-season testing. Vettel had two full race distances less on his sheet than his teammate, while sitting in the garage, his car dismantled. That’s how they arrived to Oz. Not enough time for him to modify his driving technique which served him well for so many years. How many Saturdays his car had to be taken apart, instead him driving it? Try to factor his state of mind when he went through these, and some other factors (fatherhood, friend-Michael in coma, internal frictions with management, hopelessness with car), while reading all that cr**p in media. It was a year off for him, and nothing more. That’s not how it started, but surely that’s how it ended.

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1 hour ago, BradSpeedMan said:

Dear Maure,

To say that Vettel did'nt fought anyone, including Webber.... is plain ridiculous. For 2 of his championship years there was someone else that could've won the championship. Vettel never had a plus 2 sec dominant car that the Merc drivers had these last 3 years. His advantage were mostly 0,3 secs!!!  0,3 SECONDS!!!  Rarely did it go into the ,5 second mark... Less than Schumacher and the Merc drivers ever had! Vettel's precision and speed made the difference. If you want to compare check where his teammate ended up, who has exactly the same equipment that Vettel had. While they tried to limit RedBullRacing at every turn!  What are you talking about???

I think it could be at the centre of discussion, whether jump Vettel had over competition existed prior 2014 because of his unusual driving technique through turns, or it was all and only Newey, as Vettel's detractors do insinuate. (I still need to re-read several times, and slowly, what our friend maure put down earlier.)

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2 hours ago, Sakae said:

@maure 

I have no doubt you put a lot of thought into your glimpse of history, maure, and thanks for that. However at the end, appreciative as I am of voice of moderation that precipitates through lines, one cannot escape acknowledgement, that we are dealing here with personal bias. I am not sure about you, but I have no access to data acquisition records, thus I can only deliver my perception of optics, rather than analysis on facts. There is no clarity which car was “best” prior 2014, as we are witnessing in recent years. There was no clarity when it was driver, rather than machine who should receive praise. There is however a sequential record of race results on the books. It is something I pay attention when circumstances and situational analysis is too close to be defined accurately. Expecting “wow” factor to shake you up?  I haven’t had that one for years, but is it burden we should place on driver’s shoulders? Intuitively speaking, I doubt that. When one driver does not deliver, his fault (probably), when no one delivers, I would like to talk to somebody else than (my) driver. My last wow factor dates actually back when Michael Schumacher has rolled his magic on Saturdays during qualifying. My teeth based manicure attests to it.

 How anyone in the front of TV can prove statements of a kind “Alonso got out of his car more than car could deliver,” or inversely, “Vettel did not get all what car could deliver?” I cannot, but then, I’ve never raced (just drove very fast and probably over limit). Was RBR cheating? I have no clue. Do you know more? Rule book is vague enough for technical staff to derive differing interpretations of the book, and I assume it is plausible they all do, just as penalties for crossing the (elusive) borderline are not large enough for them not to push limits out and beyond, while letting FiA to tell them what they think. I live with that; not happy, but I do. It’s part of F1 make up.

Opinion that DR walked all over Vettel in 2014 is exaggerated IMO, and not as bad as it sounds, if one really checks details in small chunks from pre-season and where they were end of the season, assuming you can objectively factor in whether Vettel, the same Vettel from the past, really cared, or just went through the motions once his deal with Maranello was on track. Someone once counted test distance covered in 2014 pre-season testing. Vettel had two full race distances less on his sheet than his teammate, while sitting in the garage, his car dismantled. That’s how they arrived to Oz. Not enough time for him to modify his driving technique which served him well for so many years. How many Saturdays his car had to be taken apart, instead him driving it? Try to factor his state of mind when he went through these, and some other factors (fatherhood, friend-Michael in coma, internal frictions with management, hopelessness with car), while reading all that cr**p in media. It was a year off for him, and nothing more. That’s not how it started, but surely that’s how it ended.

Sakae how on earth can you say Daniel beating him is in any way exaggerated? 

 

1- it was sebs team and to sit there in arrogance and say redbull wouldn't have developed the car around Seb is plain ridiculous.

2- Seb knew exactly how and who works at the team, something Daniel would've had to learn only from working with them.

yet dan was able to come into a te built around the current 4x champion who couldn't be beaten for four years in a row and not only beat him in HIS team but win 3 races to vettels zip. That alone IMO is more but sore than loosing to webber. Now if people can't see that as clear as it may be then all I can take out of it is they hold Ricciardo in higher regard than even his fans but we all know that won't get mentioned. At the end of the day, you can have a shopping list of excuses but he still lost and when people look back on 2014 and Seb and dan, they won't see how Seb lost, they'll just see he simply lost and that's all there is to it.

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1 hour ago, Emmcee said:

Sakae how on earth can you say Daniel beating him is in any way exaggerated? 

 

1- it was sebs team and to sit there in arrogance and say redbull wouldn't have developed the car around Seb is plain ridiculous.

2- Seb knew exactly how and who works at the team, something Daniel would've had to learn only from working with them.

yet dan was able to come into a te built around the current 4x champion who couldn't be beaten for four years in a row and not only beat him in HIS team but win 3 races to vettels zip. That alone IMO is more but sore than loosing to webber. Now if people can't see that as clear as it may be then all I can take out of it is they hold Ricciardo in higher regard than even his fans but we all know that won't get mentioned. At the end of the day, you can have a shopping list of excuses but he still lost and when people look back on 2014 and Seb and dan, they won't see how Seb lost, they'll just see he simply lost and that's all there is to it.

I don't know how you can maintain this fallacy after Sakae has just clearly pointed out Vettel's misfortunes from day one of pre-season testing

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Doesn't matter, you guys act like dan had no issues either, he moved into vettels team and beat him, what more can be said than that? You need to stop hanging on these "issues" Seb had because if dan can come into the team and beat Seb like that does that mean that sebs titles hold no weight as his car was just that much better? Either that or dan is that much better than Vettel concidering Vettel had 5 prior seasons there getting used to how it all works and that still didn't help Seb.

 

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17 hours ago, BradSpeedMan said:

Dear Maure,

To say that Vettel did'nt fought anyone, including Webber.... is plain ridiculous. For 2 of his championship years there was someone else that could've won the championship. Vettel never had a plus 2 sec dominant car that the Merc drivers had these last 3 years. His advantage were mostly 0,3 secs!!!  0,3 SECONDS!!!  Rarely did it go into the ,5 second mark... Less than Schumacher and the Merc drivers ever had! Vettel's precision and speed made the difference. If you want to compare check where his teammate ended up, who has exactly the same equipment that Vettel had. While they tried to limit RedBullRacing at every turn!  What are you talking about???

Didn't bother to continue reading as soon as I realized you were ripping my words out of their plain-to-see context.

Try again and do better. Otherwise, shrug.

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17 hours ago, Sakae said:

@maure 

I have no doubt you put a lot of thought into your glimpse of history, maure, and thanks for that. However at the end, appreciative as I am of voice of moderation that precipitates through lines, one cannot escape acknowledgement, that we are dealing here with personal bias. I am not sure about you, but I have no access to data acquisition records, thus I can only deliver my perception of optics, rather than analysis on facts. There is no clarity which car was “best” prior 2014, as we are witnessing in recent years. There was no clarity when it was driver, rather than machine who should receive praise. There is however a sequential record of race results on the books. It is something I pay attention when circumstances and situational analysis is too close to be defined accurately. Expecting “wow” factor to shake you up?  I haven’t had that one for years, but is it burden we should place on driver’s shoulders? Intuitively speaking, I doubt that. When one driver does not deliver, his fault (probably), when no one delivers, I would like to talk to somebody else than (my) driver. My last wow factor dates actually back when Michael Schumacher has rolled his magic on Saturdays during qualifying. My teeth based manicure attests to it.

 How anyone in the front of TV can prove statements of a kind “Alonso got out of his car more than car could deliver,” or inversely, “Vettel did not get all what car could deliver?” I cannot, but then, I’ve never raced (just drove very fast and probably over limit). Was RBR cheating? I have no clue. Do you know more? Rule book is vague enough for technical staff to derive differing interpretations of the book, and I assume it is plausible they all do, just as penalties for crossing the (elusive) borderline are not large enough for them not to push limits out and beyond, while letting FiA to tell them what they think. I live with that; not happy, but I do. It’s part of F1 make up.

Opinion that DR walked all over Vettel in 2014 is exaggerated IMO, and not as bad as it sounds, if one really checks details in small chunks from pre-season and where they were end of the season, assuming you can objectively factor in whether Vettel, the same Vettel from the past, really cared, or just went through the motions once his deal with Maranello was on track. Someone once counted test distance covered in 2014 pre-season testing. Vettel had two full race distances less on his sheet than his teammate, while sitting in the garage, his car dismantled. That’s how they arrived to Oz. Not enough time for him to modify his driving technique which served him well for so many years. How many Saturdays his car had to be taken apart, instead him driving it? Try to factor his state of mind when he went through these, and some other factors (fatherhood, friend-Michael in coma, internal frictions with management, hopelessness with car), while reading all that cr**p in media. It was a year off for him, and nothing more. That’s not how it started, but surely that’s how it ended.

Your first two paragraphs only add more fog, which is the point I'm making.

The last paragraph addresses the impossible, that is, that a driver having broken so many records in a row is then soundly defeated by a newcomer. If you are looking for excuses, roll them all the way back and you will see that, yep, there is the fog of uncertainty again.

In short, the conclusion that Vettel is as big as his record is not there, afaik. It applies to other drivers too. The field nowadays is mediocre at best.

 

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15 hours ago, Emmcee said:

Sakae how on earth can you say Daniel beating him is in any way exaggerated? 

 

1- it was sebs team and to sit there in arrogance and say redbull wouldn't have developed the car around Seb is plain ridiculous.

2- Seb knew exactly how and who works at the team, something Daniel would've had to learn only from working with them.

yet dan was able to come into a te built around the current 4x champion who couldn't be beaten for four years in a row and not only beat him in HIS team but win 3 races to vettels zip. That alone IMO is more but sore than loosing to webber. Now if people can't see that as clear as it may be then all I can take out of it is they hold Ricciardo in higher regard than even his fans but we all know that won't get mentioned. At the end of the day, you can have a shopping list of excuses but he still lost and when people look back on 2014 and Seb and dan, they won't see how Seb lost, they'll just see he simply lost and that's all there is to it.

Because they are one-way excuses.

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19 hours ago, maure said:

The thing is that I've read a couple of your posts and I know that you are an intelligent guy. So arguments such as "Vettel can drive or win" are, well, inane and demonstrate nothing. Anyone on the field can drive and most could win with Vettel's cars. I did celebrate the TR win (it was a confirmation of my interest in him) but I knew then and still know that it was a fluke. He was strong, mind you, not unlike Hamilton was once.

Now. Is Vettel a good racer? You bet. In my gut, he is above Hamilton, another solid racer on his own.

Then, again, I think Hamilton only deserves 1 of his crowns, as I've already said.

So, do I think Vettel's skill is represented by his record? I simply cannot. Two of his championships were the direct outcome of questionable (at best) circumstances on the very races that decided those championships. The remaining two are dirty as well, here and there, enough to give the matter another look, imo.

Since this whole endeavor is a matter of opinion and personal estimation, a labor that in no way whatsoever affects the drivers in question nor their achievements (or lack of), I will add that on the matter of deserved championships, I feel Kimi should have 1 more. I know I'm biased but I see it there.

Button, a guy everyone likes (including me), deserves 0 championships, imo.

So, again, back to Vettel, what do I make of him? I cannot make but less, a lot less than his record shows. You yourself can spot (and actually list) some of the issues. I wish they weren't there. But they are. Moreover, the future is already here.

What I mean is that Vettel landed 4 championships like a freaking Norse god with a brutal machine gun. You can slap Newey silly if you so want, but following those championships, Ricciardo walked all over Vettel. This was a new guy to the team, a team that had hired him to be Vettel's majordomo, much like Kovalainen was once to another superstar. And yet, Vettel was crushed and had to take off.

Again, there is enough to give the matter another look, imo.

Anyway, it is clear that where I see a driver, you see some kind of emotional investment. That's fine. It is part of the game, for some. And, like I said, I wish the boy well, for everyone's sake but specially for his because, as you, he, and everyone on planet F1 knows, if Vettel does not deliver ASAP, well, there is not going to be a place on earth to hide the evident origin of those 4 championships.

A beautiful post. 

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6 hours ago, maure said:

The last paragraph addresses the impossible, that is, that a driver having broken so many records in a row is then soundly defeated by a newcomer. If you are looking for excuses, roll them all the way back and you will see that, yep, there is the fog of uncertainty again.

In short, the conclusion that Vettel is as big as his record is not there, afaik. It applies to other drivers too. The field nowadays is mediocre at best.

 

A friendly remainder, that Ricciardo was in 2014 in his forth year with F1, thus hardly a newcomer to racing. However I think more to the crux of the issue, are you really sure that Vettel was racing him in that year? As addressed earlier, I am not.  Otherwise I am not sure that you have clarified what exactly it is you are looking for without some personal bias entangled in yours (or ours) feet. Schumacher, Prost, Senna like performance with today's cars..? Would be such expectation reasonable with today's specifications [fuel saving, reliability demands, etc.] when new race strategies are in the play?

I should perhaps add, some suggestions on this forum that RBR "it was Vettel's" team in 2014 are widely off mark IMO. New car, new PU and Newey (just as DM) for example was (were) publicly quite hostile on more than one occasion to Vettel; for open minded people quite difficult to ignore it. Relationship was strained, and there was no future for him anymore with painted bull. DM was barraged by media, and bad publicity was no good for his business, it was time to move on, and when opportune moment arose, it was done.

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8 hours ago, maure said:

Didn't bother to continue reading as soon as I realized you were ripping my words out of their plain-to-see context.

Try again and do better. Otherwise, shrug.

No, thats YOUR problem... ripping words out of context

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On 2/7/2017 at 7:51 AM, maure said:

The thing is that I've read a couple of your posts and I know that you are an intelligent guy. So arguments such as "Vettel can drive or win" are, well, inane and demonstrate nothing. Anyone on the field can drive and most could win with Vettel's cars. I did celebrate the TR win (it was a confirmation of my interest in him) but I knew then and still know that it was a fluke. He was strong, mind you, not unlike Hamilton was once.

Now. Is Vettel a good racer? You bet. In my gut, he is above Hamilton, another solid racer on his own.

Then, again, I think Hamilton only deserves 1 of his crowns, as I've already said.

So, do I think Vettel's skill is represented by his record? I simply cannot. Two of his championships were the direct outcome of questionable (at best) circumstances on the very races that decided those championships. The remaining two are dirty as well, here and there, enough to give the matter another look, imo.

Since this whole endeavor is a matter of opinion and personal estimation, a labor that in no way whatsoever affects the drivers in question nor their achievements (or lack of), I will add that on the matter of deserved championships, I feel Kimi should have 1 more. I know I'm biased but I see it there.

Button, a guy everyone likes (including me), deserves 0 championships, imo.

So, again, back to Vettel, what do I make of him? I cannot make but less, a lot less than his record shows. You yourself can spot (and actually list) some of the issues. I wish they weren't there. But they are. Moreover, the future is already here.

What I mean is that Vettel landed 4 championships like a freaking Norse god with a brutal machine gun. You can slap Newey silly if you so want, but following those championships, Ricciardo walked all over Vettel. This was a new guy to the team, a team that had hired him to be Vettel's majordomo, much like Kovalainen was once to another superstar. And yet, Vettel was crushed and had to take off.

Again, there is enough to give the matter another look, imo.

Anyway, it is clear that where I see a driver, you see some kind of emotional investment. That's fine. It is part of the game, for some. And, like I said, I wish the boy well, for everyone's sake but specially for his because, as you, he, and everyone on planet F1 knows, if Vettel does not deliver ASAP, well, there is not going to be a place on earth to hide the evident origin of those 4 championships.

Very well written.

But we cannot decide who deserves how many championships because its simply not possible. But one thing is certainly sure, a drivers ability is not measured  with the number of championships he has.

Cheers.

 

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You just making my point for me, namely, personal bias plays a role here; exactly a reason why I am rather careful with statements full of absolutes. Take statement such as "But one thing is certainly sure, a drivers ability is not measured  with the number of championships he has". Really? I am not certain where did you get that, but as far as I am concerned, it is pretty good yardstick on long run. Disclaimer here is, you have to drive some other car than Mercedes while competition is admiring you from far.

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