Webber Not Worried

[Kay 0]

Actually I was thinking just that about Mark's teammates! Are you suggesting that Ralf and Fisi are better than JV or Trulli? In any case MW probably had preferential treatment at Jaguar. Even AP managed to show him up recently!

Huh? What races were you watching... Pizzonia crashed out in most of his!!! The first race was the only one AP beat him in and Mark got hit at the start so it was easy for him to do that one. It shows in the fact that Frank did not want him to race next year.

It's a bit like Sato running around and Jenson getting hit and so Sato beats him... oh wait Sato would crash into someone else too.

[Max Mosley 2]

Where did you get the idea that it was just because of that? I have said many different reasons in this thread that was just the latest reasoning I used. This year I have been disappointed with Jenson and at the start of the year so too with Mark, but he has upped his game, whereas Jenson seemed to slip back.

Yes but your "latest reasoning" adds nothing to your argument. You can not cast doubt on JB's performance simply because his team mate was no good, especially when it was one of the most uneven contests in living memory. I don't think any one is arguing that simply beating TS is a great achievement but the fact that MW was out-performed by NH is surely a serious blow to your argument?

[Kay 0]

Yes but your "latest reasoning" adds nothing to your argument. You can not cast doubt on JB's performance simply because his team mate was no good, especially when it was one of the most uneven contests in living memory. I don't think any one is arguing that simply beating TS is a great achievement but the fact that MW was out-performed by NH is surely a serious blow to your argument?

I am not casting doubt simply because... I am saying Sato is no good marker because he does not belong in F1 so saying one was beaten by a team mate the other wasn't as proof is no good.

It is clear you do not like MW from your quite strange point that AP showed MW up, where the only comments I have seen at the end of the season is what an idiot Pizzonia is.

I like both drivers and can at least see the bad points and good, I don't think this year was JB's finest if you disagree then fine, but the two being in different cars in different situations means they are hardly comparable.

[Max Mosley 2]

I am not casting doubt simply because... I am saying Sato is no good marker because he does not belong in F1 so saying one was beaten by a team mate the other wasn't as proof is no good.

You are right that TS is not a good yardstick but I am not using that point. JB did only what one would have expected by beating him. However MW was out-performed by a driver we both rate less highly than JB and hence did not do what was expected of him. This must seriously count against MW in any season review imho.

It is clear you do not like MW from your quite strange point that AP showed MW up, where the only comments I have seen at the end of the season is what an idiot Pizzonia is.

Actually I like MW although I admit I might have a strange way of showing it. I admire his dedication and fitness and wish others were more like him. However I think JB is even better (which is no shame on MW). Btw I only meant AP beat him in one race (and set a faster lap), of course I agree AP is useless.

I like both drivers and can at least see the bad points and good, I don't think this year was JB's finest if you disagree then fine, but the two being in different cars in different situations means they are hardly comparable.

But they have never been in equal cars so any comparison would be meaningless by that logic. Surely, in fact, if MW gets beaten by a team mate we both think is not as good (as either JB or MW) then he must have had a bad season.

[Kay 0]

You are right that TS is not a good yardstick but I am not using that point. JB did only what one would have expected by beating him. However MW was out-performed by a driver we both rate less highly than JB and hence did not do what was expected of him. This must seriously count against MW in any season review imho.

Actually I like MW although I admit I might have a strange way of showing it. I admire his dedication and fitness and wish others were more like him. However I think JB is even better (which is no shame on MW). Btw I only meant AP beat him in one race (and set a faster lap), of course I agree AP is useless.

But they have never been in equal cars so any comparison would be meaningless by that logic. Surely, in fact, if MW gets beaten by a team mate we both think is not as good (as either JB or MW) then he must have had a bad season.

Well if you consider the factors then I'm not so sure you can just say "he was beaten", Jenson was lucky not to get caught up in other peoples problems, but Mark was - yes he made one as well - but he was hit out by Sato, Sato ruined his qualifying lap... he lost a podium due to someone else sliding into him.

Likewise Jenson has had some bad luck, but with the factors I think they have been pretty even, perhaps Jenson slightly better but Mark has shown dedication like you said above which is something Jenson seems to lack.

I just don't think this has been a good season for Jenson off or on the track.

[Kopite Girl 0]

jst posted the topic..

before i could read it myself u both started a duel,.........

And it REALLY helped with you putting the snide Button comment in the thread name, didn't it.

[Jenson_Rules 0]

This has been a learning season for jenson. He has shown great aggression, proved hes a brilliant overtaker. I think what we have seen this year is BAR letting him down, he hasnt had a good car, and are we forgetting he missed out on possible 30 points due to BAR cheating and the would know doubt have finished much higher in the rankings. but the car was not handling well and was probably overall the 6th best car on the grid. The williams was crap mid season but as about 4th/5th best at the beginning and end! All im trying to say is although JB has had a crap car, he has extracted a lot from it, look at Turkey, belgium and germany where i would argue he drove superbly and pushed the var beyond what it was capable of. Its a shame he didnt do the same though at the other circuits!

[Sato 0]

proved hes a brilliant overtaker

When was that? I must of missed it... Was it the time he let Schumacher pass him easily in Imola? I deffinatley saw that...

[ykickamoocow 0]

he missed out on possible 30 points due to BAR cheating

Jenson had about the same chance of winning all 3 of those races he was disqualified from as i do becoming the English Queen.

[nojvnof1 0]

I think you're chances of becoming Queen edge JB's chances of winning those 3 races, only just though

When was that? I must of missed it... Was it the time he let Schumacher pass him easily in Imola? I deffinatley saw that...

the time JV eased off and blatantly moved over and allowed JB to pass him on the outside of Pouhon I think it was at Spa was another.

[Kay 0]

When was that? I must of missed it... Was it the time he let Schumacher pass him easily in Imola? I deffinatley saw that...

He was the 3rd driver overall for overtaking (the amount of overtaking) and how many times resulted in him hitting someone? I can't remember one.

[Sato 0]

I see, where exatly did you get this stat? and how many was it because of people being as inept at defending as him? He'd of got heaps at turkey simpley for being hopeless in QF. Overtaking Jordans isn't really all that hard in a BAR.

[Jem of the Shire 0]

I see, where exatly did you get this stat? and how many was it because of people being as inept at defending as him? He'd of got heaps at turkey simpley for being hopeless in QF. Overtaking Jordans isn't really all that hard in a BAR.

I wonder if you actually watch f1 races, with the kind of crap you come out with. He wasnt overtaking jordans you plank. He overtook a whole load of drivers, including alonso. And nojvnof1, dont be bitter, the move on jv at pouhon was a very good one - brave and daring! is it really like jv to just move over? I dont think so. If you dimwits watched belgium you would have also seen some brilliant overtaking by jenson that put him up to 3rd by the end. Some of you are so blinded by your dislike for the guy that you just cant bring yourselves to admit when he's done something special. And I think its pathetic

[Sato 0]

I wonder if you read posts..... I was talking about back of the grid efforts... get a grip.

Also if you'll recall spa, i believe JV was on the wrong time as JB overtook him, wasn't he? Maybe im wrong but from memory he was.

[Jem of the Shire 0]

No I still dont understand you - you said overtaking jordans is easy in a bar and he would have got heaps (i assume heaps of overtaking!) cos he was hopeless in quali. Jenson was 1 of the fastest in all the practise sessions but unfortunately slipped at turn 8. Call that hopeless if you want, but he got star of the race turkey cos he drove very, very well, and i'm not saying that just cos i'm a jenson fan. Also what do u mean jv was on the wrong time? Do you mean tyre? If you do, it doesnt make any difference - the move was brave and pulled off very well

you also call jenson totally inept at defending - yet you can only think of 1 example, being imola, where schumacher was about 2.5s faster a lap than the BAR. Hardly a great basis on which to state that jenson is inept at defensive driving

[Sato 0]

sorry, time = tyre.... must be getting tired, with 'typo's' like that....

Also, MS was that much faster then Alonso too, but i think we all know Alonso showed how to defend....

[Jem of the Shire 0]

jenson did slip up at imola when michael caught him - my point is, thats only 1 time, and yet you state that jenson is inept at defending. Do you remember brazil, the bar's struggled, barrichello was much faster and catching jenson, then got stuck behind him for about 10 laps. Jensons defense was pretty good then! Alonso hit the wall in canada - does that mean we can say he's an inept driver who always hits the wall?

[Kay 0]

I see, where exatly did you get this stat? and how many was it because of people being as inept at defending as him? He'd of got heaps at turkey simpley for being hopeless in QF. Overtaking Jordans isn't really all that hard in a BAR.

The stats that are published.

Doesn't work like that - as else Sato would be top overtaker and he isn't.

[Sato 0]

After looking at stats, Sato has 17, as does Button. Sato is a great overtaker too

Button also has been overtaken 11 times compared to Sato's 5, Sato must also be a better defender.

[Kay 0]

So much for these Jordans Button overtook at Turkey.

Infact it was Sato who overtook a Jordan and two Minardis I believe.

Sato has high stats because he can overtake Minardis and Jordans from where he starts from, Jenson has overtaken much bigger names much more frequently.

[Jem of the Shire 0]

After looking at stats, Sato has 17, as does Button. Sato is a great overtaker too

Button also has been overtaken 11 times compared to Sato's 5, Sato must also be a better defender.

you really are a moron. stop being so stupid please! sato races with backmarkers and usually isnt in the race long enough to be overtaken!

[Jenson_Rules 0]

Jenson had about the same chance of winning all 3 of those races he was disqualified from as i do becoming the English Queen.

Can you not read you prick. I said a POSSIBLE 6 points, i didnt say he was gonna get 30 points! But in 3 races a driver can score a maximum of 30 points! He prob wudda got about 15 MAX!

[Jem of the Shire 0]

monaco probably would have been jensons strongest race of the year, so it really p**sed me off. And of course he did get 6points at imola, probably would have got 3 or 4 points in spain if he didnt have any major problems

[Jenson_Rules 0]

indeed! Well at least next bar can run a 3rd car on fridays and thus get more track data!

[bajo39 0]

monaco probably would have been jensons strongest race of the year,

That is just BAR PR-rubbish, you will recall that at the first race back they also thought they would hunting for a podium only to be completely out of sorts.