Hamilton To Ferrari

[Jean Todt 4]

And lighter car.

just read this,

[cavallino 2]

Come on, Mike! Do you honestly think that Ron would consider his "golden boy", the genius he has been nurturing for the past 10 years to become just Alonso's lackey?

Mclaren have a designated winner for the championship this year. The fact that he isn't the fastest driver doesn't matter in the slightest. Maybe Alonso has a contractual number one contract? Or maybe moRon is just trying to be a control freak, maybe he thinks that teaching Lewis some humility will help, just like he thinks that the Red Bulletin should be banned and is not allowed in the Mclaren garage and that it is an excellent idea to shield his new driver from the press altogether. He's trying to be a daddy figure, I hope Lewis has the sense to realise that he can move to a better team.

I would have feel outraged if Lewis would have been leading the race and forced to yield first place to Alonso. But as he already was in second place...

That is the problem with simplistic people like you, you think the only way a team can force a driver to finish behind his teammate is to make them switch positions at the last corner, and then you can have a fit of moral outrage if the car is red, or wear blindfolds pretend that Mclaren treat their drivers equally, or say that Fisi is so slow anyway, it doesn't matter, and the car isn't red and almighty Alonso is driving. Team orders are team orders are team orders. Any team decision that puts one driver at an avoidable disadvantage compared to the other is team orders, it doesn't matter in the slightesxt how it is done. And when it is done to help a slower driver because it's in his contract or whatever, it's shameful.

Player(1) and Wez are nowhere to be seen and I have to carry the burden of being the official pro-Alonso troll

You at least try to be intelligent, and have a modicum of self respect.

[cavallino 2]

i think its sad that some racing fans would actually prefer teams to employ a 'second' driver to be a lackey for the first driver.

It's not Ferrari, it's all good.

[BradSpeedMan 6]

You are right, I suck at making short posts

But when Player(1) and Wez were around they could express all this in shorter, much more understandable posts and all I had to do was say "I agree"...those happy days are gone so you will have to do a lot of reading if you want to understand my confused mind!

hell no, you don't suck at all with short or long post's. But it is clear you made extra effort into the team order debacle

[Quiet One 15]

hell no, you don't suck at all with short or long post's. But it is clear you made extra effort into the team order debacle

Guilty as charged! You know, like I said, I had some real life problems and that made my posts a little more bitter than usual (and made me wonder how much influence real llife event have over our posts at some moment) If this had been a good week, perhaps I wouldn't have bothered to get into all this (honestly, I don't think this is a big deal )

Anyways, I thank you for the kind comment, but I know I suck not out of fake modesty, but because I read my own posts and most of the times I can't even understand what I was trying to say!

[Quiet One 15]

Mclaren have a designated winner for the championship this year. The fact that he isn't the fastest driver doesn't matter in the slightest. Maybe Alonso has a contractual number one contract? Or maybe moRon is just trying to be a control freak, maybe he thinks that teaching Lewis some humility will help, just like he thinks that the Red Bulletin should be banned and is not allowed in the Mclaren garage and that it is an excellent idea to shield his new driver from the press altogether. He's trying to be a daddy figure, I hope Lewis has the sense to realise that he can move to a better team.

Just your assumption. Valid as such, but nothing else. You are just making a hypothesis (geez, these words! I can barely wirte them in spanish...in English they are a torture!) based on your own interpretation of some facts. Can't really argue against that.

That is the problem with simplistic people like you, you think the only way a team can force a driver to finish behind his teammate is to make them switch positions at the last corner, and then you can have a fit of moral outrage if the car is red, or wear blindfolds pretend that Mclaren treat their drivers equally, or say that Fisi is so slow anyway, it doesn't matter, and the car isn't red and almighty Alonso is driving. Team orders are team orders are team orders. Any team decision that puts one driver at an avoidable disadvantage compared to the other is team orders, it doesn't matter in the slightesxt how it is done. And when it is done to help a slower driver because it's in his contract or whatever, it's shameful.

*scornful look* "simplistic people like you"? I try to be nice, but that does not gives you the right to insult me...don't make that mistake. You want to be respected, then respect others. Your posts aren't that great as to spare you from that basic rule for debating ideas amongst civilized people.

Oh yes, and as for the remaining things you said. They are either things I never said or things that are actually the opposite of what I said. I have written huge posts explaining my POV. But here it is, once again: rolleyes:

I think that if Ron issued team orders that is illegal and in fact they should be punished.

I NEVER said that McLaren treats their drivers equally. I just said that there is not enough evidence to support the idea that Alonso is the number one driver, nor that Lewis is the number one, mind you. That means I DONT KNOW! You, being an atheist like me should know the difference.

Show me the contract clause where it says that Lewis is a number two driver and has to be Nando's lackey and I will feel as outraged as you. Show me a race where Lewis had everything to win and yet has to let Alonso win and I will feel as outraged as you. THIS race was in the best case a close call.

Your accusations about the pro Alonso or Pro McLaren or whatever goggles are not justified and as such, dismissed.

You at least try to be intelligent, and have a modicum of self respect.

Why, thank you! You know, Cav, one thing is being frustrated when no one fully understands your POV. That happens all the time. Is hard to explain things in five minute posts. We all have our bias and its common to misinterpret others intentions. But you should really cool down and learn some patience. We are not stupid (and you are not that intelligent, either )

[Autumnpuma 0]

Why did Hammy instead of trying to overtake Alonso at the start get right behind Alonso and held off Massa?

Good question, although Massa was hardly held up by Lewis. Indeed, the McLarens were a cut above everyone in Monaco--including Ferrari. As to why he filed behind Alonso, I would say that he knew he was running with 5 laps more fuel and would get a shot at passing Alonso during the pit stops...until McRon pulled that rug out from under him mid-race.

And when you will shell out $20,000,000 a year to run a team, YOU CAN HAVE IT! And watch two of your drivers wreck BOTH of your investments (cars) in turn 2 of the first race of the year jusr so you can watch them RACE!!!

And than I want to know what you would tell the sponsors???

How about "Go sponsor a safer sport, like golf, you pu$$ies".

i think its sad that some racing fans would actually prefer teams to employ a 'second' driver to be a lackey for the first driver.

I would've thought most fans would prefer to see 2 top drivers pushing each other, its much more exciting to watch

I agree 100%.

[goferrarigo 0]

because they would've both ended up in the wall

At the start, he went right behind Alonso not staright as they ussually go into the turn and atleast try to overtake him...

[goferrarigo 0]

You are right, I suck at making short posts

But when Player(1) and Wez were around they could express all this in shorter, much more understandable posts and all I had to do was say "I agree"...those happy days are gone so you will have to do a lot of reading if you want to understand my confused mind!

Yes, i like to read your posts ussually but these 3 thread on hammy are hard to catch up, you and cav fill pages like Sh#t....

hell no, you don't suck at all with short or long post's. But it is clear you made extra effort into the team order debacle

You mean he sucks at both???

Good question, although Massa was hardly held up by Lewis. Indeed, the McLarens were a cut above everyone in Monaco--including Ferrari. As to why he filed behind Alonso, I would say that he knew he was running with 5 laps more fuel and would get a shot at passing Alonso during the pit stops...until McRon pulled that rug out from under him mid-race.

See he would/should have atleast taken him into the first turn and after that settled into the p2 and pass him in pits but if Alonso makes a mistake(unlikely but still) he should be on the side to capitalize and defend his new position, i mean seeing that at start made me and the speed commentators say that they did to block massa and in effect said they were not racing each other, from the very start.....

[Quiet One 15]

Good question, although Massa was hardly held up by Lewis. Indeed, the McLarens were a cut above everyone in Monaco--including Ferrari. As to why he filed behind Alonso, I would say that he knew he was running with 5 laps more fuel and would get a shot at passing Alonso during the pit stops...until McRon pulled that rug out from under him mid-race.

How about "Go sponsor a safer sport, like golf, you pu$$ies".

I agree 100%.

I think LH move at the start surprised me at first...then I thought it was the best thing for him to do, and admired his maturity. I must confess that at that moment I thought "if only Alonso would have been as smart at Spain...". Racing Nando until St.Devote on the outside would probably ended up in him having to yield and risk losing his place by Massa. The smart thing to do was just what he did: close the line and keep off Massa, at Monaco the most important thing isn't to move up the field, is avoiding being relegated. The way he acted, he had a shot at overtaking ALonso (that is...until the McLaren-gate ) had he risked it all in a sprint to St.Devote, he might have ended up a minute behind languishing behind Massa.

[kimibest 0]

As I said on a previous post, my understanding is that at McLaren they have an agreement to decide which pilot gets to choose between the two strategies designed by the team for the race. This would be that whoever is faster on Q2 (with barely no fuel) gets to choose. This has been the case in all 5 GP's up until now, where FA has been faster than LH on Q2 in all of them except at Bahrein, where LH ran lighter on fuel for the Q3 and fought for the pole.

If this is the case, there is no point in the conspiracy theory against LH on the qually. FA gained his right to choose the lighter strategy at Monaco by beating his teammate on Q2.

alonsenna, my question is:

I understand Team to run under two different strategies, due to unpredictable changes, which may occur during the race (rain appearing, accidents, SC on track,...)and could lead Mc Laren to win under one of them, while the other strategy shows not apropiate for an unspected circustance.

But my point is, what would have happened if LH had the same lighter car at Monaco, as we see doing same lap times that FA during the Race?

He had a longer first pit stop, it seems he entered second stop to soon (could have waited two or three extra laps)...and after all he finished just after FA.

Will be see a race this season in which both McLaren have a chance at a wide track to fight each other with same car spec, and then show who is best?

[cavallino 2]

Just your assumption. Valid as such, but nothing else.

That's all it was meant to be.

*scornful look* "simplistic people like you"? I try to be nice, but that does not gives you the right to insult me...

Sorry, wasn't meant a an offensive remark. I apologise.

I think hat if Ron issued team orders that is illegal and in fact they should be punished.

He did, and they're illegal. But in this case, the law's an a##.

Why, thank you! You know, Cav, one thing is being frustrated when no one fully understands your POV. That happens all the time. Is hard to explain things in five minute posts. We all have our bias and its common to misinterpret others intentions. But you should really cool down and learn some patience. We are not stupid (and you are not that intelligent, either )

That part was meant to be deadpan humour and perhaps a dig at the other two, not you. I guess it didn't come out as that in context

[Quiet One 15]

That's all it was meant to be.

Sorry, wasn't meant a an offensive remark. I apologise.

He did, and they're illegal. But in this case, the law's an a##.

That part was meant to be deadpan humour and perhaps a dig at the other two, not you. I guess it didn't come out as that in context

Darn! You apologised! Are you aware that, if we don't use our nuclear weaponry agaisnt each other, Muzza will be deeply disappointed, right?

Ok, Cav, no problem! As it seems Cold War is back, the world has no need for you and I to keep increasing the tension between East and West

[Piotr 0]

How about "Go sponsor a safer sport, like golf, you pu$$ies".

yup, because there is such an overabundance of sponsors. Just like in rallying. Yessir, watch them line up around the corner, waiting for a chance to throw away their money.

[Piotr 0]

Well, if they did that, then I would tell the sponsors we need better drivers.

And they would say " Oh, OK, then we'll give our money to a team that DOES have better drivers!"

[Piotr 0]

that itself will only push the team further as well

Yup, right into a wall. Because by the end of the season NOBODY would remember why the team failed to score more points, other than other teams were better at it. The fact the team "let the drivers race" will become irrelevant, other than a momentary and passing thrill to the so called "fans".

Come guys, grow up!

[Jem of the Shire 0]

Yup, right into a wall. Because by the end of the season NOBODY would remember why the team failed to score more points, other than other teams were better at it. The fact the team "let the drivers race" will become irrelevant, other than a momentary and passing thrill to the so called "fans".

Come guys, grow up!

i really think you're following the wrong sport.

I suppose to you the 2004 season was one of the best in history!

[Max Mosley 2]

There will always be team orders while we have teams.

A good reason not to have teams, if you're mainly interested in having drivers compete fairly, that is.

[DOF_power 0]

You can't have F1 without teams.

[goferrarigo 0]

You can't have F1 without teams.

i think he is trying to say one driver per team...

[DOF_power 0]

Yup, right into a wall. Because by the end of the season NOBODY would remember why the team failed to score more points, other than other teams were better at it. The fact the team "let the drivers race" will become irrelevant, other than a momentary and passing thrill to the so called "fans".

Come guys, grow up!

People have selective memory and/or little knowledge of GP/F1.

Yes there were and will be times when a team dominant or not will let the drivers race each other. But team orders are part of GP/F1's very fibre. Even the likes of Fangio and Clark were in the "golden era" were part of this.

[Max Mosley 2]

We could have a sport where the following conditions were met:

1. the best drivers in the world are free to compete in equal cars,
   
2. with no team orders (because there are no teams)
   
3. in cars that permit overtaking
   
4. and were faster than current F1 cars
   

Whether this meets an arbitrary definition of "F1" or not is irrelevent. All that is necessary is that we get rid of the teams. Have the FIA supply identical cars to everyone. (Perhaps I wasn't clear before, Ankit?)

[DOF_power 0]

i think he is trying to say one driver per team...

You can't have GP/F1 like that.

[DOF_power 0]

We could have a sport where the best drivers are free to compete in equal cars, with no team orders, in cars that permit overtaking, were faster than current F1 cars

GP/F1 was never about everyone having equal cars, and that goes back to the very first GP held. There Renault used the Michelin's custom made detachable wheel rims, as well as hyraulic dampers to gain advantage over the opposition, and thus they won.

It always was and is a zig-zag between a dominant team and 2 (rarely 3) teams battleing out. So you have between 2 to 4, maybe 6 cars capable of winning the championship.

Equality is simply out of the question.

[DOF_power 0]

We could have a sport where the following conditions were met:

1. the best drivers in the world are free to compete in equal cars,
   
2. with no team orders (because there are no teams)
   
3. in cars that permit overtaking
   
4. and were faster than current F1 cars
   

Whether this meets an arbitrary definition of "F1" or not is irrelevent. All that is necessary is that we get rid of the teams. Have the FIA supply identical cars to everyone. (Perhaps I wasn't clear before, Ankit?)

I have nothing against overtaking and cars going faster and having the best drivers in the world. But appart from that ...

.... it would be against the very nature/spirit of GP/F1. It would have nothing in common with it.

If you wan't another spec series, fine, but don't expect this non-sense out of GP/F1.