Clicky

Jump to content

Archived

This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.

Silas Talbot

Mclaren Stealing Ferrari Secrets?

Recommended Posts

Of course, as you say, there is the matter of vicarious liability. The Toyota case is going to court; it's just taken a long time to get anywhere near it - 4 years? So don't expect this one to be cleared up anytime soon.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

It is a puzzle where all pieces match.

How is that McLaren was 4 tenth down just before they got that info and after they could understand and apply it they were 4 tenths ahead? Could that McLaren developer alone have bought that very expensive information from that Ferrari mechanic?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I very much doubt it. It would have to be a mighty fine modification that gained a team 0.8s/lap instantly.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
The second foolish statement from Mclaren asks the FIA to analyse their car to see that there is no resemblance with the Ferraris. I agree that there might be no resemblance at all but the information about the Ferraris that had been available to them is the only thing required to counter and come up with a better part for their own car. We should also not forget the fact that teams have significant developments pre planned and up their sleeves to launch as the season progresses. Since nobody except the team has information about them, they could well be used by another team in advance to the launch date.

yep, it is obvious that they couldn't just COPY Ferrari solutions to their car. It would be too easy to notice. It is also abvious, anyway, that those Ferrari documents have given them enormous benefits, because they include most of the development work Ferrari has done during off-season and beyound.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
That explains how McLaren out of nowhere got rid of all the gremlins in their machinery in such a short period of time.

Ferrari were strong last year and carried the good form into this season. McLaren were utter crap in 2006 but lead the championship without faltering in 2007.

And the timing is so perfect... McLaren don't say anything all this while and all of a sudden once the investigation kicked off, they suspend an high ranking team member. Convenient don't you think?

Ferrari haters would be all over this if roles were reversed.

Scumbags.

Your line of reasoning here is not correct. The documents were allegedly given to Coughlan in April which is far too late to affect the current car. If anything, those documents contained aspects of the Ferrari design that might have helped Coughlan design the '08 car. No question, however, that Stepney had probably landed a job at McLaren.

Even if McLaren have not used any information at all, the simple fact that documents were in their possession makes them criminals. Its like Robin Hood who stole to help the poor and never used the money for himself but remember he was always hunted down by the sheriffs.

The theory that if McLaren are using Ferrari information then howcome they are better is useless. Even Super Aguri are using Honda's last season car and are better than them thus far. There might be a department in which Mclaren is better off than Ferrari and therefore are better overall.

Now I think we need to separate what is a criminal offense here and what is an infraction of the FIA Sporting Regulations. This all centers around intellectual property. That IP would be copyright material owned by Ferrari. If Coughlan was in possession of anything owned by the Ferrari Corp(?) then it's a criminal case, the type of case being determined by a few factors such as: was it just Coughlan involved or was it any members of the board for McLaren Int.? If it was just Coughlan, then only he (and Stepney) would face criminal charges in a court of law with real jailtime if convicted. In that scenario, McLaren Int. will be cleared of any wrongdoing (indeed, there is no concern about McLaren Int at this time..it's only Coughlan and Stepney).

Now the other part is any possible infraction of the FIA Sporting Regulations. The FIA has no legal power to convict or imprison anyone; it's just a group of participation racing organizations that formulate a set of rules for any racing organization that cares to join it. Heres a quote from itv-f1.com:

The FIA says its investigation will be limited to any breaches of the sporting regulations that arise from the case.

"The remit of this investigation will focus solely on the requirements of the International Sporting Code and the Formula One Regulations," said the statement.

The only way Team McLaren (the actual F1 team, not McLaren International) can suffer any penalty from the FIA is if they can be shown to have violated the Formula 1 Regs or the Sporting Regs. The only part that would apply pertains to running parts designed by another competitor. Ron Dennis was quick to eliminate this by opening up all his car's designs for the FIA to inspect. The F1 team McLaren is going to be found to be 100% in compliance with the FIA regulations. This should not be a topic for debate. The team is clean. Now McLaren International may be found guilty of industrial espionage but that is unlikely. As in the Toyota case, the fault, and the punishment, will be limited to the individuals involved (Coughlan and Stepney).

It is a good point that McLaren cant exactly strap Ferrari winglets onto their car.. and that's what they just said in another press release:

"Woking, United Kingdom, 4th July 2007: Following our statement of 3rd July 2007, McLaren has completed a thorough investigation and can confirm that no Ferrari intellectual property has been passed to any other members of the team or incorporated into its cars.

McLaren has in the meanwhile openly disclosed these matters to the FIA and Ferrari and sought to satisfy any concerns that have arisen from this matter. In order to address some of the speculation McLaren has invited the FIA to conduct a full review of its cars to satisfy itself that the team has not benefited from any intellectual property of another competitor."

But then, knowledge is power in sooo many different ways. It is simplistic to assume that there isn't other benefits from stealing information.. I'd imagine the specific information which was found could have a lot to do with the ramifcations.

They're probably going to claim that a disgruntled Stepney gave them the documents in order to try to secure a job next year, with no McLaren hand in thefts or sabotage...

Wow Ron Dennis must be on the warpath.

Good post.

Since McLaren could not deny the fact that document were actualy discovered at the residence of one of their senior employees they said that the employee had them for his own use and they were not used for any developments in McLaren. How can they be so foolish? The employee was under contract with them and they should have made sure that nothing of this sort happens. The employee represents the team and any wrong doing even on individual basis makes the team responsible.

That makes no difference to the FIA investigations. As for the criminal investigations, as I have said above, it will likely be limited to the individuals involved, not the entities they work for.

The second foolish statement from Mclaren asks the FIA to analyse their car to see that there is no resemblance with the Ferraris. I agree that there might be no resemblance at all but the information about the Ferraris that had been available to them is the only thing required to counter and come up with a better part for their own car. We should also not forget the fact that teams have significant developments pre planned and up their sleeves to launch as the season progresses. Since nobody except the team has information about them, they could well be used by another team in advance to the launch date.

That doesn't wash. Were this true we should have expected to see McLaren beating the pants off the Ferraris last weekend...which we clearly didn't. There has been no performance gains at all from McLaren to back up your claim.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
It is also abvious, anyway, that those Ferrari documents have given them enormous benefits, because they include most of the development work Ferrari has done during off-season and beyound.

No, it's not obvious at all. Are you saying that without this information McLaren wouldn't have come up with a fast car? Piffle. It didn't work for Toyota. Saying that McLaren have benefitted in any way is pure speculation at this point.

*post edited due to American intervention*

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Bugger. some pesky 'merkin posted while I was thinking. (nice post Mike)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Bugger. some pesky 'merkin posted while I was thinking. (nice post Mike)

:lol: Well, I suppose you'll have to edit and use that darned little quotey-thingy....

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
It is a puzzle where all pieces match.

How is that McLaren was 4 tenth down just before they got that info and after they could understand and apply it they were 4 tenths ahead? Could that McLaren developer alone have bought that very expensive information from that Ferrari mechanic?

Ferrari did a better job during testing in silverstone and the track suited their cars much better than Mclaren. It is a fair game, there are tracks where Mclarens are better suited (almost traditionally) than anyother team.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Your line of reasoning here is not correct. The documents were allegedly given to Coughlan in April which is far too late to affect the current car. If anything, those documents contained aspects of the Ferrari design that might have helped Coughlan design the '08 car. No question, however, that Stepney had probably landed a job at McLaren.

Now I think we need to separate what is a criminal offense here and what is an infraction of the FIA Sporting Regulations. This all centers around intellectual property. That IP would be copyright material owned by Ferrari. If Coughlan was in possession of anything owned by the Ferrari Corp(?) then it's a criminal case, the type of case being determined by a few factors such as: was it just Coughlan involved or was it any members of the board for McLaren Int.? If it was just Coughlan, then only he (and Stepney) would face criminal charges in a court of law with real jailtime if convicted. In that scenario, McLaren Int. will be cleared of any wrongdoing (indeed, there is no concern about McLaren Int at this time..it's only Coughlan and Stepney).

Now the other part is any possible infraction of the FIA Sporting Regulations. The FIA has no legal power to convict or imprison anyone; it's just a group of participation racing organizations that formulate a set of rules for any racing organization that cares to join it. Heres a quote from itv-f1.com:

The only way Team McLaren (the actual F1 team, not McLaren International) can suffer any penalty from the FIA is if they can be shown to have violated the Formula 1 Regs or the Sporting Regs. The only part that would apply pertains to running parts designed by another competitor. Ron Dennis was quick to eliminate this by opening up all his car's designs for the FIA to inspect. The F1 team McLaren is going to be found to be 100% in compliance with the FIA regulations. This should not be a topic for debate. The team is clean. Now McLaren International may be found guilty of industrial espionage but that is unlikely. As in the Toyota case, the fault, and the punishment, will be limited to the individuals involved (Coughlan and Stepney).

Good post.

That makes no difference to the FIA investigations. As for the criminal investigations, as I have said above, it will likely be limited to the individuals involved, not the entities they work for.

That doesn't wash. Were this true we should have expected to see McLaren beating the pants off the Ferraris last weekend...which we clearly didn't. There has been no performance gains at all from McLaren to back up your claim.

I agree with every point of yours! Well almost.

I knew Ferrari will be back after Silverstone tests. But I expected Mclarens to be very close. I think Mclarens still have the pace to be with the Ferraris if only they used similar strategies for the last race. The reason why Ferrari lagged behind Mclaren in Canada and U.S. is simply because of the testing ban. I am sure Mclaren used their Monaco experience to the max. Luca claiming that Monacco was a jokie is simply to hide their frustration. I am sure Silverstone will be a lot close, Ferrari and Mclarens will be nose to tail.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
I agree with every point of yours! Well almost.

I knew Ferrari will be back after Silverstone tests. But I expected Mclarens to be very close. I think Mclarens still have the pace to be with the Ferraris if only they used similar strategies for the last race. The reason why Ferrari lagged behind Mclaren in Canada and U.S. is simply because of the testing ban. I am sure Mclaren used their Monaco experience to the max. Luca claiming that Monacco was a jokie is simply to hide their frustration. I am sure Silverstone will be a lot close, Ferrari and Mclarens will be nose to tail.

actually, they lost valueble time because of their windtunnel that was'nt fully fuctionable....

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
actually, they lost valueble time because of their windtunnel that was'nt fully fuctionable....

Ferrari themsleves were left frustrated after Indy, and have publicaly expressed their frustration on the testing Regulations. (Dr. T too)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
No, it's not obvious at all. Are you saying that without this information McLaren wouldn't have come up with a fast car? Piffle. It didn't work for Toyota. Saying that McLaren have benefitted in any way is pure speculation at this point.

*post edited due to American intervention*

Of course it is obvious. The yet unconfirmed rumour tells, that those documents actually include COMPLETE DESIGN DRAWINGS of the ferrari car. This means, that those documents include most of the long-period work Ferrari has done. When Mclaren got this kind of information, they also stole months of design efforts of their rival team. It is enormous benefit, worth of hundreds of millions of dollars.

And when we are talking about intellectual property, we must remember that IPR laws consider normal companies in general society. It is different issue, when we are talking about specific, closed high-tech F1 environment. There is no restriction, that Formula one could't define their own regulations considering stealing IPR from other team. If they deside to ban a team, that has stolen all the design documents of other team's car, they certainly can do it.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

`Hundreds of Ferrari drawings found at designer`s home`

Thursday 5th July 2007

Hundreds of drawings of this year's Ferrari were allegedly found at the home of McLaren chief designer Mike Coughlan during a raid on Tuesday.

According to reports, the incriminating evidence was found by private detectives after Ferrari obtained a search warrant through the British courts earlier this week.

McLaren have assured Ferrari that they have not used any of the data, allegedly stolen from their Maranello base, and are believed to have 'worked closely' with the Italian team after being informed that 'a senior member of its technical organisation' had 'personally received a package of technical information from a Ferrari employee at the end of April'.

Coughlan, who has been suspended by McLaren, has yet to make any comment.

Meanwhile, Nigel Stepney, accused of sabotaging the Ferrari cars ahead of the Monaco GP and also passing on the technical information to Coughlan, is expected to return from holiday later today. The Englishman maintains he is innocent of any wrongdoing. It has been reported in Italy, however, that the mysterious powder found in the fuel tanks of Kimi Raikkonen and Felipe Massa's Ferrari has been identified as detergent.

_________________________

Nuff said.

and... detergent?! I'm pretty sure cleaning agents have no business being in a fuel tank. hmmmmm...

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Look at the McLaren body, elephant nose, crazy front wing... The McLarens are designed to corner, and the Ferraris are designed for straight-line speed. The MP4-22 is like 10 kph slower in 7th gear @ 19000... I don't agree with raikkonen_dominates about the direct application of Ferrari's designs to McLaren's car. They are so far out there at McLaren, anything from a Ferrari would slow them down...

However, the design drawings would be very useful at helping McLaren to guide their development efforts into new areas. "Where are we weaker than Ferrari? Where can we focus our research efforts to get the biggest bang for the buck? Where will the F2007 be weak, and how can we capitalize?"

These things won't show up in an FIA inspection of the car, but with all the scrapping for tenths that goes on in F1-- the myriad levels of competition-- there is no way that these documents are NOT useful in some way. Anyone who suggests McLaren wasn't using this to some kind of advantage is living in a fantasy world.

What a disgrace.. Say it ain't so, Ron. Say it ain't so.

All I can say at this point is... poor Lew Ham. =(

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Of course it is obvious. The yet unconfirmed rumour tells, that those documents actually include COMPLETE DESIGN DRAWINGS of the ferrari car. This means, that those documents include most of the long-period work Ferrari has done. When Mclaren got this kind of information, they also stole months of design efforts of their rival team. It is enormous benefit, worth of hundreds of millions of dollars.

And when we are talking about intellectual property, we must remember that IPR laws consider normal companies in general society. It is different issue, when we are talking about specific, closed high-tech F1 environment. There is no restriction, that Formula one could't define their own regulations considering stealing IPR from other team. If they deside to ban a team, that has stolen all the design documents of other team's car, they certainly can do it.

It's unconfirmed. And it's a rumour. Clear enough.

Incidentally, how does a private detective obtain a search warrant? I don't believe they can. So how'd they get into MC's house? Interesting.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Look at the McLaren body, elephant nose, crazy front wing... The McLarens are designed to corner, and the Ferraris are designed for straight-line speed. The MP4-22 is like 10 kph slower in 7th gear @ 19000... I don't agree with raikkonen_dominates about the direct application of Ferrari's designs to McLaren's car. They are so far out there at McLaren, anything from a Ferrari would slow them down...

However, the design drawings would be very useful at helping McLaren to guide their development efforts into new areas. "Where are we weaker than Ferrari? Where can we focus our research efforts to get the biggest bang for the buck? Where will the F2007 be weak, and how can we capitalize?"

These things won't show up in an FIA inspection of the car, but with all the scrapping for tenths that goes on in F1-- the myriad levels of competition-- there is no way that these documents are NOT useful in some way. Anyone who suggests McLaren wasn't using this to some kind of advantage is living in a fantasy world.

Good until you got to the bold part.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Yeah that's what I thought Russ. It was an interesting post from Silas, up to the final bit.

On a minor technical matter, fuels do have detergents in them. Obviously not in powder form though. I wonder if it's possible the fuel wasn't blended right and the detergent separated out. It's not very likely I admit.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
It's unconfirmed. And it's a rumour. Clear enough.

Incidentally, how does a private detective obtain a search warrant? I don't believe they can. So how'd they get into MC's house? Interesting.

Bribed the maid??????????????????????????

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

2 scenarios I suppose. 1. He let them in which begs the question, why? 2. The house was searched without his knowledge which of course is illegal.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Ferrari did a better job during testing in silverstone and the track suited their cars much better than Mclaren. It is a fair game, there are tracks where Mclarens are better suited (almost traditionally) than anyother team.

Well, they got the information by april they tested by may and they applied it by june. They had time enough to study and find how to get benefit of it on their cars. FIA has to do something if they want to keep F1 credit as a sport and not only a dirty business.

How is it that Canada and much more USA were Ferrari circuits but this year those have been clearly for McLaren. Do you remember Italian football last year? Should Juve and Milan have been penalized or only the members involved? It is not only a matter of using that information but first steeling it. Then probably use it or at least try to do it. Using that info is not as easy as a copy-paste thing but a good engineer can study it and find they way it could be applyed on a different car.

Do we have to believe that Coughlan got that valuable info from Stepney just because they were friends? Could he get that info without any help (payment) from McLaren? It is important to know wether they used it or not but do you think not important that they at least tryed? Should McLaren be penalized if Ron Dennis knew about that info or just penalize RD only? They are a team and a dirty action from one member is enough to get benefit or to get punishment.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Well, they got the information by april they tested by may and they applied it by june. They had time enough to study and find how to get benefit of it on their cars. FIA has to do something if they want to keep F1 credit as a sport and not only a dirty business.

How is it that Canada and much more USA were Ferrari circuits but this year those have been clearly for McLaren. Do you remember Italian football last year? Should Juve and Milan have been penalized or only the members involved? It is not only a matter of using that information but first steeling it. Then probably use it or at least try to do it. Using that info is not as easy as a copy-paste thing but a good engineer can study it and find they way it could be applyed on a different car.

Do we have to believe that Coughlan got that valuable info from Stepney just because they were friends? Could he get that info without any help (payment) from McLaren? It is important to know wether they used it or not but do you think not important that they at least tryed? Should McLaren be penalized if Ron Dennis knew about that info or just penalize RD only? They are a team and a dirty action from one member is enough to get benefit or to get punishment.

It is all pure speculation right?

Too bad of you, you still continue posting with out any evidence.

Massa himself said that Ferrari is not able to use its tyres properly in certain kind of Tarmac. Kimi said that Ferrari is not able to warm its tyres a## effectively or quickly as other teams' cars.

It is a case of Ferrari having the problem, Ferrari's car problems played into Mclaren's hands.

When I am trying to build the biggest city in the world, map of Shanghai is useless to me. Because, construction on the grounds of Shanghai needs a completely different approach.

Like wise, Ferrari's drawings are actually useless.

Some guys here have even questioned Mclaren's current form with respect to last season, when Ferrari can improve its form from their dreadfull season during 2005, to second in constructor's title during last season, why cant a team with similar resources bounce back to a good, of not better form the following year?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

http://totalf1.com/view-article.php?newsid=215242

News

Kimi: Ferrari will be faster in Britain

Thursday, 05, July, 2007, 12:26

Click to enlarge

Kimi Raikkonen believes Ferrari will be even quicker at Silverstone than it was in France.

Ferrari ended McLaren's winning streak by taking a commanding one-two at Magny-Cours last weekend.

The turnaround followed a successful test for Ferrari at Silverstone in late June, and Raikkonen believes Ferrari will be faster still as it returns to the scene of its breakthrough.

"We had a very good test here two weeks ago," he said.

"If we manage to bring all the latest developments on the track, then I think that Ferrari will be even more competitive than in Magny-Cours."

But he stopped of predicting that Ferrari would be the team to beat in Britain, as he does not think McLaren showed its true potential in France.

"I've been asked if we now have an advantage: I really can't tell," Raikkonen said.

"We have to wait for the British GP to find out.

"Obviously the gap of our competitors in France is not representative.

"The situation changes from track to track: we were behind at Indy and ahead at Magny-Cours.

"It's just a waste of time to think about who will be favoured at Silverstone.

"We just have to wait until Friday, then we'll know more."

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
It is a case of Ferrari having the problem, Ferrari's car problems played into Mclaren's hands.

Ferrari problems?

We are not talking about Ferrari problems we are talking about some documents that have been found in Mike Coughlan's house. A McLaren boss developer engineer. That's not a rumour that is a fact as well as some strange powder found in Ferrari's fuel tank in Monaco.

I'm trying to behave in the same way I would do if that documents had been found in a Ferrari engineer's house and those documents had been stolen from McLaren.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

×
×
  • Create New...