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Silas Talbot

Mclaren Stealing Ferrari Secrets?

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interesting, i thought that the non-compete clauses in contracts were the primary protection for teams. however what is in your head is your own intellectual property. seems absurd to me that a solution to a problem can be considered the ipr of a legal entity...that is why you are the lawyer and i am not! :lol:

It is interesting that they have this issue really. What was described seems to be just standard clauses that you often see in Non Disclosure Agreements, the team will hold the IP of the cars. However as an interesting aside, I would expect the contract for the employee to state that any designs, technology developed is the property of the team, any breach of this contract can result in severe financial penalties. So the action isnt against Mclaren, but Stepney surely? If you have ever seen an NDA from company to company it tends to state all IP is confidential, unless in the public domain at the time of the agreement, will remain confidential for a period of x years and that the company (or in this case individual) is liable for costs incurred. Only exception for disclosure is subpoenas or similar from a court.

So what is Coughlan doing so wrong by holding those documents if they were sent to him, he cant be responsible for documents he is sent, admittedly he could have sent them to Ferrari or given them to the police when realising what they are. However he seems in a much better position to defend himself, the real problem is the person who sent him the documents in the first place.

Its an interesting problem, and I hope that it will get resolved, Formula 1 doesnt need this!

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Come on!

They are not so stupid in McLaren to copy-paste all that Ferrari solutions to their cars. Engineers have to analyze those documents and find out how to apply those solutions to their cars. Then go to test it, back again to desing/developing... That's the way it always work but it can be much easier to find solutions for your cars when you have Ferrari documents with their solutions.

I am not saying they did it at McLaren but people coming here and saying it is not possible for McLaren to use that documents in their own benefit make me laugh. They should share all the documentation in F1, it is useless for the others anyway... Ha ha ha! There are many ways you can benefit from those documents and the obvious copy-paste is the obviously impossible to achieve.

Isn't it obvious to you yet that Stepney and Coughlan were gunning for employment at Honda? Why would either of them give information to McLaren, a rival of Honda? Think it through.

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That seems very weird to me aswell Andres, if your going to do something naughty, make plans so you have only a small chance of being caught. I mean couldn't MC have kept the documents in another location. That would be common sense, but like the saying goes common sense aint that common.

Also.. he could have NOT GONE TO KINKOS to copy them, for crissake.

I heard somewhere that is where MC was found out -- a worker at the copy store noticed Ferrari IP notices on the documents and called the phone number that was listed.

GENIUS!!!

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Why would either of them give information to McLaren, a rival of Honda?

I am not saying they did. What I'm saying is they (McLaren) could have used that information and that's why FIA is investigating McLaren's cars.

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I am not saying they did. What I'm saying is they (McLaren) could have used that information and that's why FIA is investigating McLaren's cars.

Is that all you were saying? Looking at your past posts, it seems you were doing more than that. It seems you were arguing heavily that McLaren were using that information. Take this post:

It is a puzzle where all pieces match.

How is that McLaren was 4 tenth down just before they got that info and after they could understand and apply it they were 4 tenths ahead? Could that McLaren developer alone have bought that very expensive information from that Ferrari mechanic?

Your other posts are a bit toned-down, but still heavily favor the idea that McLaren used that info:

Well, they got the information by april they tested by may and they applied it by june. They had time enough to study and find how to get benefit of it on their cars. FIA has to do something if they want to keep F1 credit as a sport and not only a dirty business.

How is it that Canada and much more USA were Ferrari circuits but this year those have been clearly for McLaren. Do you remember Italian football last year? Should Juve and Milan have been penalized or only the members involved? It is not only a matter of using that information but first steeling it. Then probably use it or at least try to do it. Using that info is not as easy as a copy-paste thing but a good engineer can study it and find they way it could be applyed on a different car.

Do we have to believe that Coughlan got that valuable info from Stepney just because they were friends? Could he get that info without any help (payment) from McLaren? It is important to know wether they used it or not but do you think not important that they at least tryed? Should McLaren be penalized if Ron Dennis knew about that info or just penalize RD only? They are a team and a dirty action from one member is enough to get benefit or to get punishment.

Why do some guys be so quiet when all that things have happended? Why do they try to grab the focus of the conversation out of target?

I think it's perhaps you that has missed the target...

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Is that all you were saying? Looking at your past posts, it seems you were doing more than that. It seems you were arguing heavily that McLaren were using that information.

I say they could have used the information you say it is not possible. I vote for the investigation you think it is no necessary to investigate anything. I'm not saying they did you are saying they did not.

How is that McLaren was 4 tenth down just before they got that info and after they could understand and apply it they were 4 tenths ahead? Could that McLaren developer alone have bought that very expensive information from that Ferrari mechanic?

I still have those questions in mind and I hope FIA is able to clarify both.

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We know that Stepney and Coughlan were gunning for employment at Honda. That alone proves Coughlan hasn't used any of that information to fabricate Ferrari-owned parts for the McLaren.

Ron Dennis has made available to the FIA all the development drawings on his cars since April and he wouldn't do that unless he was 100% sure there are no Ferrari-owned parts on his car. That is all that must be demonstrated to clear McLaren from wrongdoing.

Now you can rest easy knowing that McLaren are in the clear.

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A bit more reading and a bit more thinking have swayed me to another possible scenario here. We are all looking at who's being accused of what instead of looking at the ultimate result of all this...and who that result might favor. Who would stand to benefit if Stepney and Coughlan were taken out of F1? Ferrari, of course.

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A bit more reading and a bit more thinking have swayed me to another possible scenario here. We are all looking at who's being accused of what instead of looking at the ultimate result of all this...and who that result might favor. Who would stand to benefit if Stepney and Coughlan were taken out of F1? Ferrari, of course.

:naughty: The plot thickens.......!

I'm still thinking Honda though. Given their dismal performances this year and the massive pressure they must be under from their bosses in Japan to produce results, they'd be a more obvious choice than McLaren to benefit from the information. No doubt Honda were unaware of the situation- I assume Stepney and Coughlan were planning to make miraculous improvements on the Honda and then demand salaries to match. Or maybe they were meeting Sharky to try and negotiate a pay deal which increased in line with performance gains.

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A bit more reading and a bit more thinking have swayed me to another possible scenario here. We are all looking at who's being accused of what instead of looking at the ultimate result of all this...and who that result might favor. Who would stand to benefit if Stepney and Coughlan were taken out of F1? Ferrari, of course.

:eusa_think: The red menece strikes again......................rubish!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

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:eusa_think: The red menece strikes again......................rubish!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

:lol: The tifosi return to the forum!! Time to run....

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My take on this saga is that Mclaren (the team) will not be implicated in the spy story. Stepney & Coughlan were going to use the Ferrari secrets and maybe Mclaren's as a form of bargaining tool going forward. It is very obvious that the secrets would have been used in designing a future Honda if they had been appointed.

Coughlan would have shafted Mclaren given the chance.

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We know that Stepney and Coughlan were gunning for employment at Honda. That alone proves Coughlan hasn't used any of that information to fabricate Ferrari-owned parts for the McLaren.

Ron Dennis has made available to the FIA all the development drawings on his cars since April and he wouldn't do that unless he was 100% sure there are no Ferrari-owned parts on his car. That is all that must be demonstrated to clear McLaren from wrongdoing.

Now you can rest easy knowing that McLaren are in the clear.

I agree with you in saying that Mclaren are in the clear. McLaren are not able to control what an employee tries to do outside the work environment. Still it must be a worrying time for Ron and his team.

A bit more reading and a bit more thinking have swayed me to another possible scenario here. We are all looking at who's being accused of what instead of looking at the ultimate result of all this...and who that result might favor. Who would stand to benefit if Stepney and Coughlan were taken out of F1? Ferrari, of course.

I agree again, Ferrari lose an cheif machanic who has already got the hump with Ferrari, on the other hand McLaren stand to lose a very talented cheif designer. Clear advantage, Ferrari.

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I agree with you in saying that Mclaren are in the clear. McLaren are not able to control what an employee tries to do outside the work environment. Still it must be a worrying time for Ron and his team.

I agree again, Ferrari lose an cheif machanic who has already got the hump with Ferrari, on the other hand McLaren stand to lose a very talented cheif designer. Clear advantage, Ferrari.

Much like the Toyota affair. Who lost there and who gained there? Ferrari gained by denying Toyota it's personnel. Hmmmm.....

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I read today that the court has heard that Coughlans wife apparently copied the documents :eusa_think:

Blame the wife that's it Mike :nono1:

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Ferrari lost Stepney and Mclaren seems loses Mike, also both teams are probably affected by this process while BMW is not affected by it at all. Those two are rather important members of staff as far as i know compared to the Toyota affair.

Also Mclaren benefit would not be in direct copying of the designs, but to design their own car so that it would be hard to pass Mclaren with Ferrari in race while opposite would be much more possible. But generally i agree that Mclaren has not used the knowledge.

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Much like the Toyota affair. Who lost there and who gained there? Ferrari gained by denying Toyota it's personnel. Hmmmm.....

Interesting theory. Mind telling me how Ferrari would orchestrate such a scenario? Are you suggesting that Stepney was okay with incrminating himself, or maybe that Todt brainwashed him? Did Michael run over his head this time perhaps, sending him doolally?

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Interesting theory. Mind telling me how Ferrari would orchestrate such a scenario? Are you suggesting that Stepney was okay with incrminating himself, or maybe that Todt brainwashed him? Did Michael run over his head this time perhaps, sending him doolally?

Yes, quite.

Was there this much conspiracy theory rubbish when Williams and McLaren were dominating, or does it just propogate itself better now with the internet?

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Yes, quite.

Was there this much conspiracy theory rubbish when Williams and McLaren were dominating, or does it just propogate itself better now with the internet?

It's because of a higher level of wooden spoons and piles of sh!t in the world, apparently.

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