This Will Make Your Blood Boil...

[Jean Todt 4]

I do that every now and then. Actually, I usually just copypaste some articles I read in Cosmopolitan about F1. And you all take them seriosuly!! Hahahahah! Gotcha!!!

There are two members here who copy/paste like u said ,I think.

One is you and the other is Eric!

[Jean Todt 4]

Yes, it is indeed a very funny article abbas, provides some laughs!

Yes funny as some of Eyebrow's fans would get.

[Rainmaster 7]

You know Ron Dennis in the last race did say they were focusng on beating Alonso. So my question is, if both drivers were equal, why would Ron be focusing on beating Alonso??????????

Lewis does make a mess of it behind the safety car, Why nothing

Lewis is helped back with the crane, why nothing

Mclaren has a tussle in their own pit box during qualifying, and somehow the FIA gets involved and hits Alonso with a grid penalty???

These above things are know facts. Now throw in the video of the tire across the pit exit line, and a couple of more of the more shady examples and you begin to see a very strange pattern.

As an impartial observer, it just seems to be a whole bunch of strange happenings in one season, with the outcome always favoring one driver. You don't have to have much imagination to start questioning how manufacturered these outcomes are.

I mean even the stalwart BBC was caught fixing game shows. Can you at least agree that there have been some very strange rulings this year???

At least I, unlike maure, bother to respond to people's posts with a little reason - so here is my impartial (what a great word that is) reply to you. I find your response a little strange really as I never argued against some of the things you've said, anyway, here goes:

The quote from Dennis proves the already obvious, he would prefer Lewis to win over Alonso, I think that is justified due to Alonso's various negative comments against Dennis and Mclaren. This however does not prove anything with regards to parity or equal treatment, that would require evidence. A simple quote is not enough, I would have to hear it in it's original context, also with Dennis' tone of voice, then we would be able to understand precisely what he meant (as in, we were racing Alonso because the Ferrari's weren't a threat, for example).

'Lewis makes a mess of it behind the safety car, why nothing' - well I can only speculate as to why nothing.

1) the FIA are biased about Lewis

2) Lewis was forgiven as his moves weren't that bad

3) no.2 + he is a rookie

4) no.3 + bad conditions = no penalty

You can decide which.

'Lewis is helped back with crane, why nothing' - again, I can only speculate.

1) the FIA are biased about Lewis

2) Lewis kept his engine running and the race was restarted therefore he was allowed to rejoin

3) the marshalls weren't particularly bothered as to who it was, and just wanted to clear the danger as quickly as possible + Lewis had engine running.

'Mclaren has a tussle in their own...'

1) the FIA are incompetent and punished Alonso unnecessarily

2) the FIA are competent and against Alonso, hence punishment

3) the punishment was justified

4) no penalty necessary, but understandable as Lewis' rule breaking was not public whereas Alonso's was international and very public

'These above things are known facts' - Not sure what you mean, if you mean the actual events then yes, if you mean your speculation that they are all (deliberately) against Alonso then no, it is speculation, it has it's weight, but no concrete evidence.

I have never disagreed that there have been some strange rulings this year, so not sure where that came from, so yes I can, (and always have) 'at least agree'.

[YHR 0]

At least I, unlike maure, bother to respond to people's posts with a little reason - so here is my impartial (what a great word that is) reply to you. I find your response a little strange really as I never argued against some of the things you've said, anyway, here goes:

The quote from Dennis proves the already obvious, he would prefer Lewis to win over Alonso, I think that is justified due to Alonso's various negative comments against Dennis and Mclaren. This however does not prove anything with regards to parity or equal treatment, that would require evidence. A simple quote is not enough, I would have to hear it in it's original context, also with Dennis' tone of voice, then we would be able to understand precisely what he meant (as in, we were racing Alonso because the Ferrari's weren't a threat, for example).

'Lewis makes a mess of it behind the safety car, why nothing' - well I can only speculate as to why nothing.

1) the FIA are biased about Lewis

2) Lewis was forgiven as his moves weren't that bad

3) no.2 + he is a rookie

4) no.3 + bad conditions = no penalty

You can decide which.

'Lewis is helped back with crane, why nothing' - again, I can only speculate.

1) the FIA are biased about Lewis

2) Lewis kept his engine running and the race was restarted therefore he was allowed to rejoin

3) the marshalls weren't particularly bothered as to who it was, and just wanted to clear the danger as quickly as possible + Lewis had engine running.

'Mclaren has a tussle in their own...'

1) the FIA are incompetent and punished Alonso unnecessarily

2) the FIA are competent and against Alonso, hence punishment

3) the punishment was justified

4) no penalty necessary, but understandable as Lewis' rule breaking was not public whereas Alonso's was international and very public

'These above things are known facts' - Not sure what you mean, if you mean the actual events then yes, if you mean your speculation that they are all (deliberately) against Alonso then no, it is speculation, it has it's weight, but no concrete evidence.

I have never disagreed that there have been some strange rulings this year, so not sure where that came from, so yes I can, (and always have) 'at least agree'.

When I said known I meant there is not doubt that this events really have been said, and the actions occured, that is all.

Your evaluation of these facts is accurate and one I can agree with. Basically that is all all wanted, an admission that some mighty strange things have happened this year, with a possibility that there may be more to this then just coincidence. I will agree as well that this could all be coincidence and nothing more. Ideally the latter is the only thing we can all hope it is, somewhere in the middle is a disgrace to motor racing.

[Rainmaster 7]

When I said known I meant there is not doubt that this events really have been said, and the actions occured, that is all.

Your evaluation of these facts is accurate and one I can agree with. Basically that is all all wanted, an admission that some mighty strange things have happened this year, with a possibility that there may be more to this then just coincidence. I will agree as well that this could all be coincidence and nothing more. Ideally the latter is the only thing we can all hope it is, somewhere in the middle is a disgrace to motor racing.

Sadly I suppose we will never know for sure (whether it's more than coincidence), and will spend the rest of our days fruitlessly debating it, oh well.

[Max Mosley 2]

Yes, I'll happily admit there have been a few unusual situations this year. But I also think there has been a lot of unjustified speculation too. Most of the events you mention YHR can be explained fairly reasonably. The Ron quote is a complete red herring. I believe the tyre didn't cross the white line, though it was very close. The punishment for Alonso after the pit tussle was not unreasonable imho. The lack of penalties for Hamilton after (1) being helped by the crane and (2) messing up a little behind the safety car are probably the hardest to accept. I don't really know what the rules are exactly regarding (1) but might be up to the marshals as to whether they help out or not - certainly Schumacher also received help in a similar way without penalty. Regarding (2) I think a penalty would have been harsh, and I think there was a lot of silly talk of Hamilton being responsible for the Vettel-Webber crash.

I don't deny that Hamilton has probably been a little lucky at times with some of these rulings, but I don't think there's much evidence of biased interference from the FIA either. After all, Alonso only escaped disqualification from the entire season thanks to a special immunity. And imho most of Alonso's troubles with the team, he has at least exacerbated himself through his counter-productive and difficult attitude.

[AleHop 0]

Evidence?

You could have a monkey climbing a tree in front of you an you would still ask for evidence. You don't want to admit what is evident just because Hamilton is leading the Championship. He will win it, good for him.

There you have Ron Dennis saying WE weren't racing Kimi, WE were racing Fernando. I thought spanish media was biased but I have discovered german and english are far worse.

[Max Mosley 2]

If you just think about it for a second you'll soon realise that quote doesn't mean anything, apart from Ron showing his closer relationship with Lewis. Who is the "we" referring to? The entire McLaren team was racing Fernando? Btw the quote was reported in uk media too.

[Quiet One 15]

Yes, I'll happily admit there have been a few unusual situations this year. But I also think there has been a lot of unjustified speculation too. Most of the events you mention YHR can be explained fairly reasonably. The Ron quote is a complete red herring. I believe the tyre didn't cross the white line, though it was very close. The punishment for Alonso after the pit tussle was not unreasonable imho. The lack of penalties for Hamilton after (1) being helped by the crane and (2) messing up a little behind the safety car are probably the hardest to accept. I don't really know what the rules are exactly regarding (1) but might be up to the marshals as to whether they help out or not - certainly Schumacher also received help in a similar way without penalty. Regarding (2) I think a penalty would have been harsh, and I think there was a lot of silly talk of Hamilton being responsible for the Vettel-Webber crash.

I don't deny that Hamilton has probably been a little lucky at times with some of these rulings, but I don't think there's much evidence of biased interference from the FIA either. After all, Alonso only escaped disqualification from the entire season thanks to a special immunity. And imho most of Alonso's troubles with the team, he has at least exacerbated himself through his counter-productive and difficult attitude.

"At least exacerbated". Indeed. But that is not the same as "being the sole responsible". So, if we are going to get the rope to hang Alonso, why not Ron? Why not the FIA who let Lewis unpunished at Fuji because of "the poor weather conditions" which only seem to affect Lewis and Vettel but not Kubi? Unless we are ready to admit that Nando went to McLaren only to screw up that team. Bah, why do I bother?

[Non-Muzza's post related rambling]

Ok, Nando sucks, he is just a mediocre driver who only won 2 WDCs because the R25 and R26 were the best cars ever. He is also a devious guy who only thinks about ruining Ron, that icon of British gentlemanship. Lewis is just an orphan fighting against a hard, full of hatred society using just the power of peace and understanding. Nando also likes to blackmail poor old Ron every thursday evening. He convinced Coughlan and De La Rosa, those b#####ds, to get into this huge conspiracy to destroy McLaren and avenge the Gibraltar Rock invasion. Ron never knew about all this because he was too busy trying to help old ladies cross the road. Of course, Nando could not have done all this without his best buddy's help: Bernie Ecclestone. We all know how well they get along. Mosley, who is like a father to Nando once said: "Bernie and Nando are as close as two guys can get with their clothes on".

[/Non-Muzza's post related rambling]

There, I feel so much better now. Give me my "Go Lewis" cap and let me enjoy Interlagos...please! I don't give a **** who wins the WDC, anyways. I only hope the drivers could give us a great end of season. A better one, at least, that we, the public, are giving to them, anyways.

[Grabthaw the Hammerslayer 4]

Evidence?

You could have a monkey climbing a tree in front of you an you would still ask for evidence. You don't want to admit what is evident just because Hamilton is leading the Championship. He will win it, good for him.

Part of the problem here I think is that all great drivers in recent times have had their fair share of controversy, problems with team mates/principals and occasional cheating accusations. Look at Schui's career - great driving interspersed with some very questionable moments (parking in Monaco, driving into Villeneuve/Hill, etc, dodgy planks, dodgy rear wings....) Does not take away that the man was a fantastic driver. Senna had his fair share too - with the infamous Prost collisions and thumping of Eddie Irvine (well some things I can forgive him for ) Mansell and Piquet were hardly on speaking terms....

Our modern equivalents - Kimi, Lewis, Fernando are all stellar drivers. But if there is one thing I think that has changed is the glare of the media spotlight is so intense these days that minute things become blown up out of hand. There has always been spying in F1, there has always been cheating and there always will be. Drivers will get a bit of luck both good and bad. Its all part of the "joy" that we call F1. Let's not look at things too closely - stepping back, what we are seeing this season is what has gone on every year, its just more public now and McLaren were unlucky and got caught

However in my opinion, there are two things that are "wrong" currently:

a ) Is the way that both Fernando and Lewis have made their grievances public in the press - far more than they should have done. Such washing of dirty laundry in public is just bad news - they should have kept their rivalry on the track. I don't know whether to blame them or the media but it has been handled badly.

b ) FIA... I have to question their role, impartiality and consistency on some issues. e.g 1 the recent comments about Jackie Stewart make me seriously question their approach - right or wrong, what was said, it was unprofessional to say it. e.g. 2 I also wonder how the FIA are going to handle the Renault spying allegations - will they get a $100 million fine and lose all their points too? e.g. 3 an overlooked issue is that Ferrari had illegal components on their cars for the first two races and also that one of their employees "brought the sport into disrepute" - no penalties for either e.g. 4 The FIA seem to be so heavily dictating what goes on that it is easy to forget that this is a competitive sport. Is it too regulated? What would the cars/drivers be like if the rules were relaxed/thrown away? e.g. 5 the fact the some teams/drivers seemingly get away lighter with things than others

I hope both drivers learn from a ) and try to focus more.

And as for b ) I don't know what the answers are, but I sure as hell know that both a ) and b ) combined have helped tarnish this season from what was one of the most competitive and enjoyable seasons yet.

[Jean Todt 4]

Evidence?

You could have a monkey climbing a tree in front of you an you would still ask for evidence. You don't want to admit what is evident just because Hamilton is leading the Championship. He will win it, good for him.

There you have Ron Dennis saying WE weren't racing Kimi, WE were racing Fernando. I thought spanish media was biased but I have discovered german and english are far worse.

But, guys like you workship donkey with big eye brows climbing into a car and think its a human..

[YHR 0]

Yes, I'll happily admit there have been a few unusual situations this year. But I also think there has been a lot of unjustified speculation too. Most of the events you mention YHR can be explained fairly reasonably. The Ron quote is a complete red herring. I believe the tyre didn't cross the white line, though it was very close. The punishment for Alonso after the pit tussle was not unreasonable imho. The lack of penalties for Hamilton after (1) being helped by the crane and (2) messing up a little behind the safety car are probably the hardest to accept. I don't really know what the rules are exactly regarding (1) but might be up to the marshals as to whether they help out or not - certainly Schumacher also received help in a similar way without penalty. Regarding (2) I think a penalty would have been harsh, and I think there was a lot of silly talk of Hamilton being responsible for the Vettel-Webber crash.

I don't deny that Hamilton has probably been a little lucky at times with some of these rulings, but I don't think there's much evidence of biased interference from the FIA either. After all, Alonso only escaped disqualification from the entire season thanks to a special immunity. And imho most of Alonso's troubles with the team, he has at least exacerbated himself through his counter-productive and difficult attitude.

The stuff I bolded is where I have a different opinion then you. The FIA is incompetent at best, and bais towards all things that favor LH at worse.

[AleHop 0]

Part of the problem here I think...

>

>

>

It's never been a problem when two drivers play mind games or try to get advantage of something during a competition. The big big problem this year is that THE GOLDEN BOY is untouchable. And the clearest picture of it was Kubica's penalty which gave Hamilton track free and avoided them racing fairly.

Senna, Schumacher and all the Champions were penalized when they did something wrong. Hamilton has not been penalized, he was the only one helped by a crane, he was the only one who got no penalty because of the bad weather, etc.

Exchange Hamilton and Alonso at Hungary. We know what the FIA stewards would have said about it: Alonso didn't obey McLaren orders... It made a big mess within the team and no one is to blame for it... Next time we will penalize whatever and blah blah blah.

[Max Mosley 2]

"At least exacerbated". Indeed. But that is not the same as "being the sole responsible". So, if we are going to get the rope to hang Alonso, why not Ron? Why not the FIA who let Lewis unpunished at Fuji because of "the poor weather conditions" which only seem to affect Lewis and Vettel but not Kubi? Unless we are ready to admit that Nando went to McLaren only to screw up that team. Bah, why do I bother?

Yeah! Here's a comparison you made me think of. I reckon there are lots of similarities between Ron and Nando this year. Both were supposed to be working together, but have fallen out. Both are partly responsible for that. Both have made mistakes. Both have suffered as a result - Ron has been disqualified and fined, whereas Nando has had to cope with a lack of emotional support from his own team.

But then we rarely hear British fans accusing Nando of ruining Ron's season or McLaren's season. Far more often we hear Spanish fans accusing Ron of ruining Nando's season. That's the reason I keep going on about this. There seems to be a lot of bias from Nando fans simply because Nando is having a bad season. And all of them apart from you refuse to accept any fact that reflects badly on Nando: I needed about 6 long posts full of research to convince one of them that Nando was willing to cheat this season, though it's common knowledge to anyone outside of Spain!

Regarding the FIA, I admit they have been a little inconsistent but I don't think they have orchestrated a campaign to make Lewis WDC. The Fuji incident was imho less severe than the mistake made by Vettel, and probably not as bad as Kubi's mistake, however Kubi should not have been penalised either. All things being equal, Lewis probably will be treated more leniently than the average driver simply because he's a title contender. I'm not saying that's right, but it's part of human nature not to want to interfere in the championship battle. It happens in most sports, like football where the top teams are statistically more likely to get referee decisions going their way!

There, I feel so much better now. Give me my "Go Lewis" cap and let me enjoy Interlagos...please! I don't give a **** who wins the WDC, anyways. I only hope the drivers could give us a great end of season. A better one, at least, that we, the public, are giving to them, anyways.

Yeah! I'm looking forward to it.

[AleHop 0]

Yeah! Here's a comparison you made me think of. I reckon there are lots of similarities between Ron and Nando this year. Both were supposed to be working together, but have fallen out. Both are partly responsible for that. Both have made mistakes. Both have suffered as a result - Ron has been disqualified and fined, whereas Nando has had to cope with a lack of emotional support from his own team.

But then we rarely hear British fans accusing Nando of ruining Ron's season or McLaren's season. Far more often we hear Spanish fans accusing Ron of ruining Nando's season. That's the reason I keep going on about this. There seems to be a lot of bias from Nando fans simply because Nando is having a bad season. And all of them apart from you refuse to accept any fact that reflects badly on Nando: I needed about 6 long posts full of research to convince one of them that Nando was willing to cheat this season, though it's common knowledge to anyone outside of Spain!

Regarding the FIA, I admit they have been a little inconsistent but I don't think they have orchestrated a campaign to make Lewis WDC. The Fuji incident was imho less severe than the mistake made by Vettel, and probably not as bad as Kubi's mistake, however Kubi should not have been penalised either. All things being equal, Lewis probably will be treated more leniently than the average driver simply because he's a title contender. I'm not saying that's right, but it's part of human nature not to want to interfere in the championship battle. It happens in most sports, like football where the top teams are statistically more likely to get referee decisions going their way!

Oh, I see now. There is just only one top team this year called Hamilton. The other 21 drivers are just for clapping and to show how Hamilton can beat all of them with the help of his friends.

I'll say it again: Exchange Hamilton and Alonso at Hungary. We know what the FIA stewards would have said about it: Alonso didn't obey McLaren orders... It made a big mess within the team and no one is to blame for it... Next time we will penalize whatever and blah blah blah.

[Max Mosley 2]

No that is not what I said. The top drivers like Lewis and Nando (or Michael in his day) will normally be less likely to be penalised than (say) a Robert or a Sebastian. I am not saying that is right either, simply that it is what will happen.

The pits tussle as YHR calls it is a poor example imho. Nando impeded another car (deliberately) whereas Lewis disobeyed team orders, which is far from against the rules. The penalty was not unreasonable imho, though I'm not sure I would have given it, but then I might not have penalised Schumi for Rascasse-gate....

[monza gorilla 1]

We know what the FIA stewards would have said about it

If you know that, then can you give me next weeks lottery numbers? Do you work from a small tent on the end of the pier?

This topic is now officially a complete waste of time. Full of people presenting imagined "facts", on both sides, in a spectacular display of pig headedness and ostrich vision. Bunkum.

[Quiet One 15]

If you know that, then can you give me next weeks lottery numbers? Do you work from a small tent on the end of the pier?

This topic is now officially a complete waste of time. Full of people presenting imagined "facts", on both sides, in a spectacular display of pig headedness and ostrich vision. Bunkum.

Do you have any evidence of that?

@Murray: Ahhh! It's all a matter of perception, then! These are the kind of things that amaze me. You and me, reading the same posts, watching the same races yet we both arrive toalmost opposite conclusions. From my point of view, there is hardly a British fan not wanting to canonize Lewis on the spot, or try to justify his actions or trying to lynch Nando. I reckon the Spaniards are the mirror image, though

About the Fuji incident, I don't think it was a conspiracy to benefit Lewis. It just seemed like one of those awful decisions, I was aiming more to highlite how unfair it was for Kubi (or Tonio, while at it) to have their race ruined in the spot, while other contenders (it was Lewis, but it could have favoured anybody else...FIA and marshalls are more stupid than biased) got scott free.

Yes sport authorities tend to favor the title contenders. I hate that in soccer, even when they favour River Plate. I hate that in F1 even if they favour Nando (the whole "FIA scrutineer" thing is really disgusting)

[Max Mosley 2]

@Murray: Ahhh! It's all a matter of perception, then! These are the kind of things that amaze me. You and me, reading the same posts, watching the same races yet we both arrive toalmost opposite conclusions. From my point of view, there is hardly a British fan not wanting to canonize Lewis on the spot, or try to justify his actions or trying to lynch Nando. I reckon the Spaniards are the mirror image, though

I guess our perspectives are different. But I can't understand how we brits could look as bad as some of the Spaniards. I mean lots of the brits don't even like Lewis, like Antonia and Ben. I definitely think the Spaniards are far worse.

About the Fuji incident, I don't think it was a conspiracy to benefit Lewis. It just seemed like one of those awful decisions, I was aiming more to highlite how unfair it was for Kubi (or Tonio, while at it) to have their race ruined in the spot, while other contenders (it was Lewis, but it could have favoured anybody else...FIA and marshalls are more stupid than biased) got scott free.

Yes sport authorities tend to favor the title contenders. I hate that in soccer, even when they favour River Plate. I hate that in F1 even if they favour Nando (the whole "FIA scrutineer" thing is really disgusting)

Yeah I agree.

[Quiet One 15]

I guess our perspectives are different. But I can't understand how we brits could look as bad as some of the Spaniards. I mean lots of the brits don't even like Lewis, like Antonia and Ben. I definitely think the Spaniards are far worse.

I guess it's because Nando is their only F1 star. Ever. Nando's driving I admire, Nando mania I do not (meybe because I am not a Spaniard). But you Brit have your history of "manias" too It still puzzles me how admant can you guys be about Button's talent. Not that he has none. But he is just another talented and promising driver that never went far. Trulli has the same level of achievements. He can also be a great driver if given a good car. He can be fast, he is a great defensive driver (how many trains beside's Trulli's are famous in F1? ) Yet you see no Trulli mania do you?

Again, I focus my interest in British fans reactions no because it is much different from that of any other country, but because this is a predominantly British forum. Argentina can be like that, too. Rugby has become more popular than soccer these past weeks just because the Pumas finally got through the semifinals. Suddenly everybody has a PhD in Rugby here. A recent poll from a newspaper here showed that, before this World Rugby Championship, more than 80% of the fans never watched a rugby match, or watched just a couple. If I were at an Argentinian Rugby forum I would be p**sing them all, too. I love to contradict people

[Max Mosley 2]

I guess it's because Nando is their only F1 star. Ever. Nando's driving I admire, Nando mania I do not (meybe because I am not a Spaniard)

Yes I agree completely! Before this season I was really a supporter of Alonso, at least in the sense that I thought he was the best driver and the closest to Schumi anyone has been since Senna. Even now, I always say he's the best driver and that he deserves the WDC. If Lewis wins, it will only be down to Alonso's set ups (and Ferrari's technical data lol).

But you Brit have your history of "manias" too It still puzzles me how admant can you guys be about Button's talent. Not that he has none. But he is just another talented and promising driver that never went far. Trulli has the same level of achievements. He can also be a great driver if given a good car. He can be fast, he is a great defensive driver (how many trains beside's Trulli's are famous in F1? ) Yet you see no Trulli mania do you?

Yeah you have half a point about Button. I think he's probably slightly better than Trulli, at least more consistently good. But yeah, there is (was?) too much Button-mania. Same with Mansell - I suspect he was over-rated. If people were complaining about Button-mania they would have a fair point, but with Lewis I think there's more reason to be blowing his trumpet! I don't remember anyone coming into the sport and being as competitive as he is. Even Senna and Schumi were beaten by their first team mates, who were nowhere near as good as Alonso is. I'm not saying Lewis is as good as they were, but his debut has been absolutely amazing. No one can really deny that.

Again, I focus my interest in British fans reactions no because it is much different from that of any other country, but because this is a predominantly British forum. Argentina can be like that, too. Rugby has become more popular than soccer these past weeks just because the Pumas finally got through the semifinals. Suddenly everybody has a PhD in Rugby here. A recent poll from a newspaper here showed that, before this World Rugby Championship, more than 80% of the fans never watched a rugby match, or watched just a couple. If I were at an Argentinian Rugby forum I would be p**sing them all, too. I love to contradict people

I am the same - I enjoy contradicting people and bias annoys me. Kiko is a good Spaniard. He told us recently that the Spanish press are worse than even ours I think. It's just a shame that so many of them only became fans after Alonso started doing well.

[Quiet One 15]

Yes I agree completely! Before this season I was really a supporter of Alonso, at least in the sense that I thought he was the best driver and the closest to Schumi anyone has been since Senna. Even now, I always say he's the best driver and that he deserves the WDC. If Lewis wins, it will only be down to Alonso's set ups (and Ferrari's technical data lol).

I am not sure he deserves the WDC. I tend to think that he was right in many of his claims, but they are not enough to explain why Lewis is ahead of him. If there could be something as a racing place, totally isolated from the Universe and without any exteranl factors influencing it, I would say that Nando is still miles above Lewis. But Nando also is too temperamental, and was a fool letting both his arrogance and Lewis get into his skull and make him lose concentration. Nando is good. But Lewis, again all external factors aside, has proven he is not too far away and in some aspects has the edge.

I don't like Lewis personality as much as most Brits don't like Nando's (well, I am no fan of Nando's personality, either ) You could say that is because he is the main contender for Alonso. I thought so too until I had a chat with Ben. Then I noticed that in 2005, even when Kimi seemed like he would really beat FA, I still had no problems with his personality. I never disliked Kimi like I disliked Lewis almost from the beggining. Perhaps because I see some similarities between his personality and Schumi's. Anyways, I try not to let that cloud my judgement. And I am afraid I fail miserably.

Yeah you have half a point about Button. I think he's probably slightly better than Trulli, at least more consistently good. But yeah, there is (was?) too much Button-mania. Same with Mansell - I suspect he was over-rated. If people were complaining about Button-mania they would have a fair point, but with Lewis I think there's more reason to be blowing his trumpet! I don't remember anyone coming into the sport and being as competitive as he is. Even Senna and Schumi were beaten by their first team mates, who were nowhere near as good as Alonso is. I'm not saying Lewis is as good as they were, but his debut has been absolutely amazing. No one can really deny that.

Yes he is slightly better than Trulli. I like Button, for the record (And just between you and me, because I fear Kay's reactions if I don't say so). Don't even get me started about Mansell! Now that was one of the worst personalities amongst Brits champions. Even Piquet Sr. seemed friendly compared against the Lion. As for Lewis, you are right, not every day you see such an impressive debut. Yet, again, not everyday you see someone being nurtured by a top team for so many years and making his debut in a top team. Senna started in a crappy Toleman, Nando in a Minardi, Kimi in a Sauber which was not as crappy as the Minardi or Tolemans but neither a top team at the moment.

I see Lewis as the biggest promise right now. But he still needs a couple of seasons to learn the tricks that make a champion stand above the rest.

You might be a champion just because you are quick or consistent (the Kimi and Lewis way). Nando (when he is focused) and Schumi had a lot more tricks (strategy, knowledge of the car, etc.) If he can manage those, then I see a guy that could easily match Schumi's feats, if the mechanical mean helps him.

I am the same - I enjoy contradicting people and bias annoys me. Kiko is a good Spaniard. He told us recently that the Spanish press are worse than even ours I think. It's just a shame that so many of them only became fans after Alonso started doing well.

Bandwagon jumping is one of F1's greatest traditions!

[Autumnpuma 0]

Alot of this has already been settled in other places (and YHR some of it has been proven to you, but you still hang on to your erroneous notions...odd that). Murray, I'll pick your post to reply to, but only because it covers alot.

The Ron quote is a complete red herring.

I've downloaded the mp3 of that quote. Most news outlets have got it wrong (and I've even commented on it in another thread). The quote I was commenting on had Ron saying WE werent racing Kimi and HE was racing Alonso. That was incorrect. Ron clearly says that WE were racing Alonso. What does that prove? Nothing really because it can mean Ron views the team against Alonso or it can mean that his drivers were battling each other and he took the viewpoint of Hamilton (who was the focus of the question as he's the points leader).

I believe the tyre didn't cross the white line, though it was very close.

If the tyre didn't cross the line then no rule was broken. The tyre must completely cross the line. There isn't a 'belief' here. It either did or it did not. The photo I saw showed it halfway across the line.

The punishment for Alonso after the pit tussle was not unreasonable imho.

Agree.

The lack of penalties for Hamilton after (1) being helped by the crane and (2) messing up a little behind the safety car are probably the hardest to accept. I don't really know what the rules are exactly regarding (1) but might be up to the marshals as to whether they help out or not - certainly Schumacher also received help in a similar way without penalty. Regarding (2) I think a penalty would have been harsh, and I think there was a lot of silly talk of Hamilton being responsible for the Vettel-Webber crash.

Hamilton was well within the rules to ask for help with the crane or with a push. If there was a rule broken, somebody please post the rule he broke. I'll be waiting a long time for this one...

I don't deny that Hamilton has probably been a little lucky at times with some of these rulings, but I don't think there's much evidence of biased interference from the FIA either.

Either Hamilton broke a rule or did not. The only rule I see that he broke was in not keeping within 5 car lengths of the SC. The stewards looked at that and made a judgement (nullifying Vettel's penalty in the process).

After all, Alonso only escaped disqualification from the entire season thanks to a special immunity.

Alonso was proven, with his own typed words, to have broken the same rule that cost McLaren all it's championship points. That Alonso was able to keep his points shows a bias by the FIA to keep a championship battle going. This is the only instance this season that shows the FIA not penalizing a driver for a proven case of rule-breaking for no good reason.

[Max Mosley 2]

I agree entirely Mike. I really don't see how we are being biased on this. At the end of the day there seem an awful lot of accusations here and very little evidence.

[Grabthaw the Hammerslayer 4]

>>From my point of view, there is hardly a British fan not wanting to canonize Lewis on the spot, or try to justify his actions or trying to lynch Nando.<<

Ah well, you see the Brits have a lot of experience of mediocrity, sporting-wise (i mean just look at our efforts in tennis ) - excepting football and rugby in most things we are pretty naff, apart from the odd sports like bowling, curling, rifle shooting or competitive yachting where we seem to clean up the medals....

So when we do get someone half decent coming along, we tend to get excited and you have to forgive us for that

>>I reckon the Spaniards are the mirror image, though<<

Oh so true, but we did beat their Armada