This Will Make Your Blood Boil...

[yurp 0]

Oh man, you were doing so well up until that point. I've been enjoying your posts up until then, now I feel like I've just been duped by a cheap person of ill repute!

Edit: Thought I better edit my initial response

Ahhhh but - I never said I "liked him", "respected him", "supported him", "thought the guy was in the least bit tallented" or even that "he is not a complete d#ckhead" now did I?

Let me add - Potentially "having time" for someone could include occupying that time by finishing off what Senna so chirlishly started.

Can't get me that easily - I've wheasled my way out of worse scrapes.

[shampion 0]

Yes, but it must remain a secret. Until it is proven. Which may take a while.

You do realize that there are some who would argue that a theory, that must remain secret until it is proven fact... actually is called hindsight

[monza gorilla 1]

I'll get me coat.......

[YHR 0]

Mclaren has been found guilty of espionage, that is true, but your claiming that Mclaren are favouring (parity wise) Hamilton - there is no concrete proof for this, it's just your theory, it has some weight - but it is not recognised by anyone (apart from yourself!) that this is fact. Don't state your opinions as facts, it is quite annoying (almost to the point of boiling my blood - not). I agree, the season has been compromised.

That's all's I wanted, a straight answer on why you thought the punishment was severe. You are of course entitled to your opinion, severe is a subjective thing, but Alonso didn't lose 'a whole race', his race srategy was compromised and he lost some points. For me, the punishment was unnecessary, and the only way it could be described as 'severe', is because it shouldn't of been given in the first place, but as a standalone punishment - it wasn't that 'severe' - unlike a race ban for example.

'You are amusing sometimes and others...not' - no need for the 'and others...not' - the 'sometimes' is enough.

It is 'arguable', just because Dennis would prefer Hamilton to win, doesn't mean he doesn't give equal treatment - there isn't any concrete evidence, a few quotes from Alonso doesn't prove much, he has a motive (a very good one) to say 'Mclaren are favouring Hamilton', he has however given comments to the very respectable and usually balanced Autosport (international) saying 'I expect equality in Brazil'. Now, what would Alonso have to gain by saying that? Nothing, which leads me to believe he is telling the truth, as you say though, drivers statements are often contradictory.

I agree, partially. Hamilton's performance may of 'dropped', but I just wanted you to elaborate as to how exactly it went to 'crap'. It wasn't 'crap', just not as good as Alonso, the reverse is true for Alonso in the first part of the season (that is Alonso's performance wasn't consistantly as good as Lewis', but it wasn't 'crap'). I just didn't think the word 'crap' was the right way of describing it, when you use words like that - it makes you seem like a Hamilton hater.

Thanks for reminding me the MotoGP is on. I don't know what 'you choose as argument the lynch mob' means, yes I agree with a lot of other members on some issues raised in this thread, are you saying just because there is a greater number of *them* than you, I shouldn't agree with them? Pah. I have a right to express my opinion just like you, if I happen to agree with others why can't I say that as well?

I still, out of interest, would like to know which parts of the article you disagree on - please reveal.

That was a fair response. An understanding of someones elses opinion and then some examples of why you don't agree. Well done. Much better then name calling. Much better to read. Thanks.

[Rainmaster 7]

That was a fair response. An understanding of someones elses opinion and then some examples of why you don't agree. Well done. Much better then name calling. Much better to read. Thanks.

Yes, that's right, I have given a fair and balanced response (again), so logic dictates that the response I get from maure will be the equal of that, we shall see.

It was always my intention to have a reasonable debate with him (in other threads as well), I don't think I've done any 'name calling' at any point. I already apologised (very generously) in this thread for being a little harsh in my questioning of him, maure, on the other hand - hasn't made any attempts at redemption.

To be honest, you only have to consider the title of this thread to understand what he is all about. Anyway, I await maure's reply.

[xenna 0]

Black boy kicks the backside of white boy and all hell breaks loose.Pathetic

That's the way some people will see it if FI is not careful.

[goferrarigo 0]

Black boy kicks the backside of white boy and all hell breaks loose.Pathetic

That's the way some people will see it if FI is not careful.

Controversial post to say the least.....

[AleHop 0]

Fernando Alonso's tyres were overheated at Shangai for Q3 final lap. That caused preasure increased from 0.2, which would be normal, to 1.5 which could cost him around 2 tenths. The heat made the tyres to get old very quickly and it would have made him lose another 2 or 3 tenths.

This is why FIA has told a steward to stay in McLaren box in Brazil. Same steward that penalized Alonso at Hungary and freed Hamilton for his dirty driving in Japan behind the Safety Car.

http://mafia2007.wordpress.com/

[Jean Todt 4]

[AleHop 0]

Sorry, you probably prefer this one: http://mafia2007.wordpress.com/english/

[Max Mosley 2]

I have seen no evidence that the tyres were overheated. And quite frankly I doubt it's even possible, given the warming technology used and the fact that the tyre temperatures adjust as the car is driven. Ron has denied it was the case, and I haven't seen anyone saying anything to the contrary, but I would be interested to see any evidence you have.

[Rainmaster 7]

I have read in other forums that a difference of 1.3 psi (650%) would cause massive problems, that the tyre would burst or the car would become undriveable. Is that true? That would destroy the alleged (happy now? ) claim by Alonso.

Perhaps DOF is required here.

@Murray, evidence would be nice, sadly it's a little (or a lot) scarce in this thread.

[Max Mosley 2]

Yes and I'm not sure yet that Alonso is actually claiming this either.

[Rainmaster 7]

ahh right you are, hence the edit.

[Quiet One 15]

I have read in other forums that a difference of 1.3 psi (650%) would cause massive problems, that the tyre would burst or the car would become undriveable. Is that true? That would destroy the alleged (happy now? ) claim by Alonso.

Perhaps DOF is required here.

@Murray, evidence would be nice, sadly it's a little (or a lot) scarce in this thread.

Well, I am going to try to reply to both you and Muzza, because I still have faith in humankind.

First, the Muzza bit, because is the trigger for one of my infamously long ramblings:

Do you have any evidence that Nando tried to blackmail Ron beside of what Ron says? Do you have any evidence that Hungary was Nando's idea and not team orders? Do you have any evidence that Lewis is actually better than Nando and not that Lewis is just the new Ide and Nando (and the rest of the field) having his car and strategy compromised by the most evil minds ever? Yeah, I know...nobody claimed that...yet!

As the passions, stakes and season build up to a climax, press and us gullible consumers have turned all this into a propaganda war. Muzza, I think you are smart enough to notice that 99,9999999% of whatever news we are reading lately from the pres, internet or whatever is pure propaganda. Insightful analysis, fact based editorials have long gone. All there is is cheap, wartimes propaganda. If you could read Spanish, you would be able how much pro Fernando bulls##t is around. But at the same time you would easily spot the English pro Lewis (or anti Nando, sadly tyhey made us believe those two concepts are synonyms) propaganda. Sometimes is good, sometimes is bad, being able to see both sides of the mirror and discovering how wrong are both.

Lately, I've been noticing that you tend to see everything from the starting hypothesis that Nando is either cheating, lying or just being generically mean or evil. That is OK, because he certainly did enough stupid, evil and generically mean things to be considered that way. However, by isolating Nando stupid or mean behaviour the overall effect is turning the other equally stupid, evil and generically mean participants into mere victims when they clearly ain't so.

I reckon the forums have been dragged by a few sub optimal members into these kind of controversies. Lewis vs Nando, the final battle between Good and Evil. I don't mind if people decides that Nando has to carry the most blame for all this situation because of his stupid deeds and claims. I always admitted them, but I hardly got anybody to admit Lewis or Ron's stupid deeds and claims. I just hope you keep your scientific mind open enough to avoid falling into the "poor Ron and Lewis, they are two true gentlemen and that sly Spaniard is trying to make them cry". There is hardly any evidence supporting the idea that Ron tries to sabotage Nando, but there is hardly any evidence supporting the idea that Nando is the evil monster some people try to turn him into.

Next Sunday forget all about this bitching. Just watch them race. Nando, Kimi, Lewis, Felipinho, Tonio ... Enjoy your favorite drivers but also watch Nando. If it's a normal race (no stupid bulls##t from the drivers on the track) then you will be able to notice his skills. How he can sometimes be as fast as Kimi, how he does seemingly weird things, because he is saving the engine, or trying to cool off his brakes.You will (hopefully) see why I considert him one of the great names in F1 history, despite his personality. Nigel Mansell was a great one, too. And he had the personality of a parking meter. Ditto for Prost, that bitter little man. Watch the cars race, enjoy F1. It is still one of the wonders of the world despite politics, corruption and stupidity.

Lucky you, George, your reply is going to be shorter

Yes, a difference in pressure seriously compromise overall grip and can dramatically accelerate tire wear. As it was not proven or even investigated in deep, I tend to think that it was just some other piece of junk from the press, and not a real situation. If FIA is sending a guy to keep an eye on McLaren, they would not just let something as blatant as a huge difference in tire pressure go away unpunished. This is a game of poker and none of us is sure about the cards they have or even the rules they play by.

That said, a tire pressure difference could be a good explanation on why a guy that was faster than anybody suddenly loses 0.7 secs to a guy that was slower up to that point. But, without any evidence, it is just as fair to say that maybe he was just not fast enough at the crucial time and he has nobody else but him to blame.

[Jean Todt 4]

Sorry, you probably prefer this one: http://mafia2007.wordpress.com/english/

First of all the spelling of Bahrain is wrong.

Secondly, Lewis is Alonso's team mate and not companion.

G.P. of Monaco (27-05-07) A few laps from the end, the team ordered both drivers to go below 19.000 r.p.m. L. Hamilton, refused to obey his team and tried to overtake his companion. Not succeeding in doing so, he complained to the FIA and the British Media after the end of the race, provoking an investigation and a high pressure on F. Alonso. The team took no measure whatsoever towards L. Hamilton, and did not support F. Alonso. Moreover, during the race, L. Hamilton frequently stepped over the continuous line when exiting the pit lane, which is totally prohibited. But he was not sanctioned in any way by the FIA

(just copied and pasted it)

Didn't Alonso try to over take Lewis in Indianapolis?

G.P. of Canada (10-06-07) Strange behavior of F. Alonso

[AleHop 0]

For those who understand spanish just listen this piece of audio, the middle part where they talk about F1 with Toni Cuquerella who is Anthony Davidson's engineer. http://www.cadenaser.com/el-larguero/audio...srcsrdep_2/Aes/ It is the best chance for someone trying to ruine someone's Q3 to manipulate tyre pressures. It is the best chance to ruin someone's Championship to make him doubt about his own team.

Alonso said he believe in the 20 or 30 guys at McClaren that work for him but he does not believe in any other specially the big bosses. He said before the race that his tyre presures had been ok during the whole weekend but he had big problems just during q3. McLaren is only talking about equal treatment they never said that was not true. When journalist asked him about McLaren probably dennying it he said they can't, every single thing I have said so far is something I could demonstrate.

[Max Mosley 2]

I reckon the forums have been dragged by a few sub optimal members into these kind of controversies.

Yes I agree with you Andres.

Lately, I've been noticing that you tend to see everything from the starting hypothesis that Nando is either cheating, lying or just being generically mean or evil. That is OK, because he certainly did enough stupid, evil and generically mean things to be considered that way. However, by isolating Nando stupid or mean behaviour the overall effect is turning the other equally stupid, evil and generically mean participants into mere victims when they clearly ain't so.

No, it's not that at all. I just get annoyed by the sheer number of Spaniards we have who make accusations with no proof. Maure and AleHop being two good examples. Frankly I think the Spanish press on F1 must be even worse than the British press, or perhaps Spanish fans aren't as critical as most of the English fans on here.

Anyone with any sense would know that Lewis and Ron are cheating b#####ds. You know, I've always said that everyone cheats in F1. Personally I think Lewis is a damn sight better at lying and cheating that Nando - that's part of Nando's problem.

All I was saying above is that the Spaniards claim that the tyre pressures were definitely sabotaged, but I have never seen Alonso say this, or anyone close to Alonso. As far as anyone has been able to show me, it's pure speculation from Spanish media sources, but like I've said in other threads to Maure and AleHop et al, I'm all ears if they have some evidence to show us.

[Rainmaster 7]

Lucky you, George, your reply is going to be shorter

Yes, a difference in pressure seriously compromise overall grip and can dramatically accelerate tire wear. As it was not proven or even investigated in deep, I tend to think that it was just some other piece of junk from the press, and not a real situation. If FIA is sending a guy to keep an eye on McLaren, they would not just let something as blatant as a huge difference in tire pressure go away unpunished. This is a game of poker and none of us is sure about the cards they have or even the rules they play by.

That said, a tire pressure difference could be a good explanation on why a guy that was faster than anybody suddenly loses 0.7 secs to a guy that was slower up to that point. But, without any evidence, it is just as fair to say that maybe he was just not fast enough at the crucial time and he has nobody else but him to blame.

I love getting lucky, and I can't play poker either so I agree there, with our cluelessness that is.

I agree it may be a good explanation, and I also agree that it is probably some press rubbish, my intention is to try and make a certain other member see those things - or perhaps provide some evidence. I won't hold my breath though.

[maure 1]

Nice nice weekend in MotoGP.

A few friends got together to watch the races, as we always do. In 125cc, there was an interesting meddle until the very end, usual in this category. In 250cc and MotoGP, Lorenso and Stoner commanded their respective races with ease. Lorenso was hardly on screen but must have been utterly flying to take more than a second per lap until cruising to the flag some 20 secs ahead of the pack (26 laps!!). Stoner, well, beautiful, just beautiful.

After the races, we talk about this MotoGP season. This rider, that rider, what not, no point getting into it here. However, someone eventually brought up that, unlike F1, we had only talked about racing. The mood darken and a friend tried to lighten up the situation by saying that "Well, MotoGP is owned and operated by Spaniards and there are hardly very many British in the field". It was obviously a joke but no one even smiled at the jibe. It is just not funny and, clearly, it has nothing to do with the nationality of the three schemers -- Ecclestone, Whiting, and RD -- that have completely demolished the credibility of the season and tarnished Hamilton's bid for the WC.

First Alonso and now Hamilton have brought a strange kind of fan to F1, more a mob really than real fans. These newcommers that don't give a damn about the sport, they are just hero worshipers. Consider some of the things presented in this topic and the responses.

- Since pole is nowdays so important in F1, what kind of interest shows the average lewisteric when confronted with McLaren giving 7 times the extra lap to Hamilton and only twice to Alonso? None. No interest at all. No desire to look into it. Nothing other than hysterical denial.

- I post a picture of Hamilton driving over the line after a pitstop. Does anyone demonstrate an interest in the event, say, by taking a look at the video perhaps? Nope, none, no interest or desire whatsoever to look into the matter. Nothing but hysterical denial.

Naturally, it doesn't stop there.

- McLaren spied and stole information from a rival team that has real possibilities of beating them. Any effect on the season? Not for the lewisteric because the spying never took place.

- RD admitted that his sole objective is to defeat one of his drivers when both McLaren drivers have a chance to win the WC. Any effect on the season? The lewisteric replies that "none" because, as with the espionage, it never happened.

The emotional acrobatics of the lewisterics are amusing but ultimately pointless. Any reasonable person knows that if a McLaren wins, it will be a questionable when not fraudulent win. And the thing that sucks the most is that it was all unnecessary... so what if Hamilton doesn't win his first season? So fcking what? The guy can race, that much he has shown, let him do his bid and good luck.

It is just a freaking shame.

[Rainmaster 7]

First of all the spelling of Bahrain is wrong.

Secondly, Lewis is Alonso's team mate and not companion.

(just copied and pasted it)

Didn't Alonso try to over take Lewis in Indianapolis?

Lewis too encountered strange problems in some of the GPs.

Lewis had pitstops in favor ?

Lewis too had encountered strange problems in some of the GPs. So it must be Alonso's country man who would have tampered? I don't wish to speculate like you do.

Cunning Lewis!

Proof?

Unfortunately it is difficult for the pit to saw what sort of damage has been done to a car, given that were no visible damage to the car. Secondly this is another lame excuse by you Alonso fans, since Alonso himself admitted that he just aquaplaned!

Ferraris were simply too fast during the entire weekend. Lewis was simply too fast in qualifying, admit it. Alonso simply met his match.

Yes, it is indeed a very funny article abbas, provides some laughs!

[Jean Todt 4]

Lucky you, George, your reply is going to be shorter

Yes, a difference in pressure seriously compromise overall grip and can dramatically accelerate tire wear. As it was not proven or even investigated in deep, I tend to think that it was just some other piece of junk from the press, and not a real situation. If FIA is sending a guy to keep an eye on McLaren, they would not just let something as blatant as a huge difference in tire pressure go away unpunished. This is a game of poker and none of us is sure about the cards they have or even the rules they play by.

That said, a tire pressure difference could be a good explanation on why a guy that was faster than anybody suddenly loses 0.7 secs to a guy that was slower up to that point. But, without any evidence, it is just as fair to say that maybe he was just not fast enough at the crucial time and he has nobody else but him to blame.

Nice to hear Andres talk about F1!

[Rainmaster 7]

Nice nice weekend in MotoGP.

A few friends got together to watch the races, as we always do. In 125cc, there was an interesting meddle until the very end, usual in this category. In 250cc and MotoGP, Lorenso and Stoner commanded their respective races with ease. Lorenso was hardly on screen but must have been utterly flying to take more than a second per lap until cruising to the flag some 20 secs ahead of the pack (26 laps!!). Stoner, well, beautiful, just beautiful.

After the races, we talk about this MotoGP season. This rider, that rider, what not, no point getting into it here. However, someone eventually brought up that, unlike F1, we had only talked about racing. The mood darken and a friend tried to lighten up the situation by saying that "Well, MotoGP is owned and operated by Spaniards and there are hardly very many British in the field". It was obviously a joke but no one even smiled at the jibe. It is just not funny and, clearly, it has nothing to do with the nationality of the three schemers -- Ecclestone, Whiting, and RD -- that have completely demolished the credibility of the season and tarnished Hamilton's bid for the WC.

First Alonso and now Hamilton have brought a strange kind of fan to F1, more a mob really than real fans. These newcommers that don't give a damn about the sport, they are just hero worshipers. Consider some of the things presented in this topic and the responses.

- Since pole is nowdays so important in F1, what kind of interest shows the average lewisteric when confronted with McLaren giving 7 times the extra lap to Hamilton and only twice to Alonso? None. No interest at all. No desire to look into it. Nothing other than hysterical denial.

- I post a picture of Hamilton driving over the line after a pitstop. Does anyone demonstrate an interest in the event, say, by taking a look at the video perhaps? Nope, none, no interest or desire whatsoever to look into the matter. Nothing but hysterical denial.

Naturally, it doesn't stop there.

- McLaren spied and stole information from a rival team that has real possibilities of beating them. Any effect on the season? Not for the lewisteric because the spying never took place.

- RD admitted that his sole objective is to defeat one of his drivers when both McLaren drivers have a chance to win the WC. Any effect on the season? The lewisteric replies that "none" because, as with the espionage, it never happened.

The emotional acrobatics of the lewisterics are amusing but ultimately pointless. Any reasonable person knows that if a McLaren wins, it will be a questionable when not fraudulent win. And the thing that sucks the most is that it was all unnecessary... so what if Hamilton doesn't win his first season? So fcking what? The guy can race, that much he has shown, let him do his bid and good luck.

It is just a freaking shame.

Well you obviously aren't referring to me as I'm a Kimi fan more than any other driver.

Anyway, thanks for providing some evidence and answering the questions I asked you, as usual a well-reasoned, logical and direct response from you, using evidence to justify your opinions, cheers. I can only assume your lack of a response is an admission that you were wrong and that you agree with me.

I am now convinced your just a joke poster, who's only intention is to take the p!ss, ahh well, it was fun. Oh and I agree, it is a freaking shame.

I refer you to this http://blog.hugeinasia.com/wp-content/uplo...80002vcea_w.jpg

[Quiet One 15]

Nice to hear Andres talk about F1!

I do that every now and then. Actually, I usually just copypaste some articles I read in Cosmopolitan about F1. And you all take them seriosuly!! Hahahahah! Gotcha!!!

[YHR 0]

Well you obviously aren't referring to me as I'm a Kimi fan more than any other driver.

Anyway, thanks for providing some evidence and answering the questions I asked you, as usual a well-reasoned, logical and direct response from you, using evidence to justify your opinions, cheers. I can only assume your lack of a response is an admission that you were wrong and that you agree with me.

I am now convinced your just a joke poster, who's only intention is to take the p!ss, ahh well, it was fun. Oh and I agree, it is a freaking shame.

I refer you to this http://blog.hugeinasia.com/wp-content/uplo...80002vcea_w.jpg

You know Ron Dennis in the last race did say they were focusng on beating Alonso. So my question is, if both drivers were equal, why would Ron be focusing on beating Alonso??????????

Lewis does make a mess of it behind the safety car, Why nothing

Lewis is helped back with the crane, why nothing

Mclaren has a tussle in their own pit box during qualifying, and somehow the FIA gets involved and hits Alonso with a grid penalty???

These above things are known facts. Now throw in the video of the tire across the pit exit line, and a couple of more of the more shady examples and you begin to see a very strange pattern.

As an impartial observer, it just seems to be a whole bunch of strange happenings in one season, with the outcome always favoring one driver. You don't have to have much imagination to start questioning how manufacturered these outcomes are.

I mean even the stalwart BBC was caught fixing game shows. Can you at least agree that there have been some very strange rulings this year???