227 replies to this topic

[AleHop]

Gilles V., on 14 June 2012 - 05:46 PM, said:

No doubt about that. JB should be back, which should help LH in his quest for the title. Vettel can count on Weber (or is it the other way around?), but Massa is not there for FA, and that is a big handicap to overcome in such a tightn race. I hope Massa can be back two, because if he is not, FA's chances to win the title will be slim at best.

Unfortunately you're right.

[Quiet One]

Not so terrible. He might not win this season but he will still come out firmly established as one of the legendary drivers of all time (this is the kind of stuff nobody will believe me, btw! ) which is one of the things that still LH has to prove.

And, frankly, this is one of "those" seasons. Winning might be sweet, but he can still hope for next time. So even if he doesn't win the WDC and being as competitive as he is, he seems to still be pretty much enjoying driving his nuts off in a hell of a season.

Fortes Fortuna Juvat, and this season seems to prove just so.

[Rainmaster]

Yep. Plus it's always exaggerated how much having a strong team mate helps the other driver with a shot at the title. Alonso doesn't need Massa's help to win a title; he hasn't had it so far and has been at the front and is still near the front. In fact, as far as I can tell having two strong drivers in the same team is more likely to hurt title chances (although that's exaggerated too). That seems to be the way Ferrari see it too, and with that in mind, Hamilton or Vettel fans should hope their respective team mates don't take too many points from them.

[Gilles V.]

Rainmaster, on 14 June 2012 - 08:06 PM, said:

Yep. Plus it's always exaggerated how much having a strong team mate helps the other driver with a shot at the title.

Well, here is my point of view:

Take a situation where, with 5 races to go, only a handful of points separate 5 different drivers, which is very possible since we have had 7 different winners so far, and this trend should continue until the end of the year because 1) no car is being dominant, 2) the two Lotus cars being now strong enough to win; 3) Button who will no doubt be back in the mix few; 4) there will be  a few surprises.

Now, let say Hamilton is in second place during a race and that Vettel runs fourth behind Jenson. Let’s also say Hamilton is trailing Vettel in the WDC by a few points. Jenson is a strong driver in a strong car and Vettel will have to take big risks to pass him if he is able at all. This is just one example of the edge having two cars in the top positions during a super tight race to the title can give a driver.

A strong teammate can also slow the opponents down just enough to allow his teammate to gain a few very useful seconds.

Here is another example:

Let say Webber leads the WDC before the last race with 2 point over Hamilton and that during the race he is in fifth position (10 points) and Hamilton in 4th (12 points) with Vettel in second place. So, if Hamilton passes Vettel he wins the WDC because even if their total would be the same, Hamilton has one win more than Weber in the season, but if he can't pass Vettel, Weber wins it.

There are dozens of such examples.

Isn’t nice to have a strong teammate in such a situation? Especially that these situations will inevitably occur this year in such a tight race to the title.

[Rainmaster]

Gilles V., on 15 June 2012 - 03:41 PM, said:

Well, here is my point of view:

Take a situation where, with 5 races to go, only a handful of points separate 5 different drivers, which is very possible since we have had 7 different winners so far, and this trend should continue until the end of the year because 1) no car is being dominant, 2) the two Lotus cars being now strong enough to win; 3) Button who will no doubt be back in the mix few; 4) there will be  a few surprises.

Now, let say Hamilton is in second place during a race and that Vettel runs fourth behind Jenson. Let’s also say Hamilton is trailing Vettel in the WDC by a few points. Jenson is a strong driver in a strong car and Vettel will have to take big risks to pass him if he is able at all. This is just one example of the edge having two cars in the top positions during a super tight race to the title can give a driver.

A strong teammate can also slow the opponents down just enough to allow his teammate to gain a few very useful seconds.

Here is another example:

Let say Webber leads the WDC before the last race with 2 point over Hamilton and that during the race he is in fifth position (10 points) and Hamilton in 4th (12 points) with Vettel in second place. So, if Hamilton passes Vettel he wins the WDC because even if their total would be the same, Hamilton has one win more than Weber in the season, but if he can't pass Vettel, Weber wins it.

There are dozens of such examples.

Isn’t nice to have a strong teammate in such a situation? Especially that these situations will inevitably occur this year in such a tight race to the title.

I never said it can't be helpful sometimes, and especially in a tight battle. I just think it's rare that having a strong number two driver actually helps decide a title (and even less likely to in this awful era of races where overtaking is easier). Even where you might argue it did, let's say Massa yielding wins to Raikkonen in 2007, you'd also have to look at the points lost to Massa earlier in the season (easy to quantify), and how much having a strong team mate affected the performance of Raikkonen more generally (impossible to quantify), which could be negative or positive. So it goes both ways, imo.

[Gilles V.]

I guess we'll see soon enough if it is going to be evident this year.

[Jean Todt]

I miss Maure.

[Massa]

I think Alonso's a great driver.  He might be the best on the grid and certainly of the three guys that you're sort of forced to pick from when it comes to the title (Vettel, Hamilton, and Alonso), Big Nando's my preference...

...but I think there's an element of being stuck in 2006 going on, and I think there's always been, for whatever reason, a tendency to under-estimate the cars he's been in.  Every car Alonso has had a less-than-stellar season is allegedly a complete pig (and yeah, this year's Ferrari was, but it's also a lot better now) that should have finished last in the championship if not for Alonso.  Every car Hamilton has had a less-than-stellar season is allegedly a top ride that any other driver could win the title in.  My point being, I think we over-value Alonso's fifth place finishes and under-value Hamilton's.  At the end of the day, they pay the same points.  We expect too much from Hamilton and too little from Alonso, though I guess it's time to start expecting a championship from both.  Neither one's been relevant since 2008 because they haven't won titles.  It seems weird to me that we can call Alonso the benchmark for Hamilton when Alonso's never held accountable for the fact that he hasn't won a title since 2006.  With wide rear wings, on Michelin tires, with refueling, against a grid of different teams and drivers.

The benchmark is Vettel.  I think Alonso and Hamilton are both great drivers and I'm impressed with Alonso this year in that car.  But the benchmark is actually Vettel because he's the only one of the three with a recent championship (two, in fact).  No one's noticing Vettel at all this year and that's exactly why I'm convinced he'll quietly win the title.  He's just right there, every weekend, and it's great to see him overtaking and defending so well.  He hasn't really had to before.

[BradSpeedMan]

Massa, on 16 June 2012 - 02:39 PM, said:

I think Alonso's a great driver.  He might be the best on the grid and certainly of the three guys that you're sort of forced to pick from when it comes to the title (Vettel, Hamilton, and Alonso), Big Nando's my preference...

...but I think there's an element of being stuck in 2006 going on, and I think there's always been, for whatever reason, a tendency to under-estimate the cars he's been in.  Every car Alonso has had a less-than-stellar season is allegedly a complete pig (and yeah, this year's Ferrari was, but it's also a lot better now) that should have finished last in the championship if not for Alonso.  Every car Hamilton has had a less-than-stellar season is allegedly a top ride that any other driver could win the title in.  My point being, I think we over-value Alonso's fifth place finishes and under-value Hamilton's.  At the end of the day, they pay the same points.  We expect too much from Hamilton and too little from Alonso, though I guess it's time to start expecting a championship from both.  Neither one's been relevant since 2008 because they haven't won titles.  It seems weird to me that we can call Alonso the benchmark for Hamilton when Alonso's never held accountable for the fact that he hasn't won a title since 2006.  With wide rear wings, on Michelin tires, with refueling, against a grid of different teams and drivers.

The benchmark is Vettel.  I think Alonso and Hamilton are both great drivers and I'm impressed with Alonso this year in that car.  But the benchmark is actually Vettel because he's the only one of the three with a recent championship (two, in fact).  No one's noticing Vettel at all this year and that's exactly why I'm convinced he'll quietly win the title.  He's just right there, every weekend, and it's great to see him overtaking and defending so well.  He hasn't really had to before.

yeah, I'm saying it again. You are wise beyond your years my friend... this post came from somewhere very deep. If you probably write a sad play I will cry. You and Steve have the ability to move me man...

Edited by BradSpeedMan, 16 June 2012 - 05:49 PM.

[HandyNZL]

Oh get a room.......

[Caesar]

Massa, on 16 June 2012 - 02:39 PM, said:

I think Alonso's a great driver.  He might be the best on the grid and certainly of the three guys that you're sort of forced to pick from when it comes to the title (Vettel, Hamilton, and Alonso), Big Nando's my preference...

...but I think there's an element of being stuck in 2006 going on, and I think there's always been, for whatever reason, a tendency to under-estimate the cars he's been in.  Every car Alonso has had a less-than-stellar season is allegedly a complete pig (and yeah, this year's Ferrari was, but it's also a lot better now) that should have finished last in the championship if not for Alonso.  Every car Hamilton has had a less-than-stellar season is allegedly a top ride that any other driver could win the title in.  My point being, I think we over-value Alonso's fifth place finishes and under-value Hamilton's.  At the end of the day, they pay the same points.  We expect too much from Hamilton and too little from Alonso, though I guess it's time to start expecting a championship from both.  Neither one's been relevant since 2008 because they haven't won titles.  It seems weird to me that we can call Alonso the benchmark for Hamilton when Alonso's never held accountable for the fact that he hasn't won a title since 2006.  With wide rear wings, on Michelin tires, with refueling, against a grid of different teams and drivers.

The benchmark is Vettel.  I think Alonso and Hamilton are both great drivers and I'm impressed with Alonso this year in that car.  But the benchmark is actually Vettel because he's the only one of the three with a recent championship (two, in fact).  No one's noticing Vettel at all this year and that's exactly why I'm convinced he'll quietly win the title.  He's just right there, every weekend, and it's great to see him overtaking and defending so well.  He hasn't really had to before.

i don't know what are you trying to say!
you probably want to say he gets less space than in 2011 cause there are more winners this season.
but if you look at all web news, magazines or tv shows there is always Vettel. everybody is talking about Vettel.
from TopGear, to David Letterman Show, to every new track demo's etc.

[BradSpeedMan]

HandyNZL, on 16 June 2012 - 07:45 PM, said:

Oh get a room.......

cheer up, you're grumpy of late...

[Kopite Girl]

This question is a joke, right?

[Gilles V.]

Kopite Girl, on 20 June 2012 - 07:03 PM, said:

This question is a joke, right?

Your question ? or the topic question?

In case it is the latter, could you please explain the joke ?

[Rainmaster]

Don't worry about KG, she thinks Jenson "two points in four races" Button is the best!

[Kopite Girl]

Haha! Well he'd beat Rossi in an F1 car and you're just jealous because his bumfluff is longer than yours.

Gilles baby. I meant the topic question. 'Almost' as good as Alonso? Fair enough FA has 2 more championships under his paella, but Lewis is a champion too. I think that may put them on an equal footing. The best driver is the current champion and as much as I hate to say it, its Sauerkraut Sunday in F1.

And yes, Jenson Button really is the best. So there.

And Gilles Villeneuve is a legend. So there.

And I'm off to watch Inception again for the 45th time, so I can stare at Eames. So there.

[Gilles V.]

Kopite Girl, on 20 June 2012 - 07:57 PM, said:

Haha! Well he'd beat Rossi in an F1 car and you're just jealous because his bumfluff is longer than yours.

Gilles baby. I meant the topic question. 'Almost' as good as Alonso? Fair enough FA has 2 more championships under his paella, but Lewis is a champion too. I think that may put them on an equal footing. The best driver is the current champion and as much as I hate to say it, its Sauerkraut Sunday in F1.

And yes, Jenson Button really is the best. So there.

And Gilles Villeneuve is a legend. So there.

And I'm off to watch Inception again for the 45th time, so I can stare at Eames. So there.

I think I'm going to change my name, Gilles V. I'm begining to feel pressure when people address me with this name; big shoes to fill! I just wanted to underscore the anniversary of his death when I started here, but now I think I'm going to be called Jean-Pierre, if at all possible.

Button is good, but the best? Hum... na. Top 5, may be top 3 IMHO (Vettel is not top 3 yet in my book)

[HandyNZL]

Kopite Girl, on 20 June 2012 - 07:57 PM, said:

Haha! Well he'd beat Rossi in an F1 car and you're just jealous because his bumfluff is longer than yours.

Gilles baby. I meant the topic question. 'Almost' as good as Alonso? Fair enough FA has 2 more championships under his paella, but Lewis is a champion too. I think that may put them on an equal footing. The best driver is the current champion and as much as I hate to say it, its Sauerkraut Sunday in F1.

And yes, Jenson Button really is the best. So there.

And Gilles Villeneuve is a legend. So there.

And I'm off to watch Inception again for the 45th time, so I can stare at Eames. So there.

Steph - ask the doc's to put that bit of brain back in...because before hand you knew that TWO was only ONE greater than ONE and not TWO which would be THREE

[Massa]

Gilles V., on 20 June 2012 - 08:03 PM, said:

I think I'm going to be called Jean-Pierre, if at all possible.

It is, in fact.

Click "Gilles V." in the black bar up at the top.
Click "My Settings" in the menu.
Click "Display Name" in the sidebar and fill it out.
Note that you will still use "Gilles V." to log in, regardless of your display name.

[dribbler]

Jean Todt, on 15 June 2012 - 10:20 PM, said:

I miss Maure.

He's gone to find Gorilla's in the mist

HandyNZL, on 16 June 2012 - 07:45 PM, said:

Oh get a room.......

There isn't one big enough for the love

Kopite Girl, on 20 June 2012 - 07:57 PM, said:

The best driver is the current champion and as much as I hate to say it, its Sauerkraut Sunday in F1.

What, like at the start of 1997? Why are you talking like a stupid person?

[BradSpeedMan]

Gilles V., on 20 June 2012 - 08:03 PM, said:

I think I'm going to change my name, Gilles V. I'm begining to feel pressure when people address me with this name; big shoes to fill! I just wanted to underscore the anniversary of his death when I started here, but now I think I'm going to be called Jean-Pierre, if at all possible.

Button is good, but the best? Hum... na. Top 5, may be top 3 IMHO (Vettel is not top 3 yet in my book)

I thought the most ardent Vettel hater/non-believer were silenced, yet one still has the audacity to creep up and boldly declare ignorance. For god sake the guy has 2 championships and yet he has to prove his worth?

Maybe we need more cucumbers in the road so Vettel can ride OVER them.

Gilles V, yes, please change your name, it pains me to write your name and think of the remembrance of Giles... Please bru, I beg u...

[Kopite Girl]

dribbler, on 21 June 2012 - 10:53 AM, said:

What, like at the start of 1997? Why are you talking like a stupid person?

Why are you talking at all?

Unless I'm very much mistaken, Vettel is german right? So shut it, Theroux.

@Handy - Listen. TWO more than Lewis. Duh! Where's my pizza?

[LabradoRacer]

BradSpeedMan, on 21 June 2012 - 08:52 PM, said:

I thought the most ardent Vettel hater/non-believer were silenced, yet one still has the audacity to creep up and boldly declare ignorance. For god sake the guy has 2 championships and yet he has to prove his worth?

Maybe we need more cucumbers in the road so Vettel can ride OVER them.

Gilles V, yes, please change your name, it pains me to write your name and think of the remembrance of Giles... Please bru, I beg u...

Why do you get so worked up if someone disses (whether subjectively or objectively) your fave driver? Take it easy, pal.

[Kopite Girl]

BradSpeedMan, on 21 June 2012 - 08:52 PM, said:

I thought the most ardent Vettel hater/non-believer were silenced, yet one still has the audacity to creep up and boldly declare ignorance. For god sake the guy has 2 championships and yet he has to prove his worth?

Maybe we need more cucumbers in the road so Vettel can ride OVER them.

Gilles V, yes, please change your name, it pains me to write your name and think of the remembrance of Giles... Please bru, I beg u...

Bradley. My dear friend. If you are referring to my constant needling of Seb#####d Vettel may I remindeth you that I have for two years called him the best driver in F1. I don't have to like him.

Unless you're not really Brad. You're Vettel's Dad hacking Brad's account, aren't you? (i luuuuv yoooooooouuu!)

[HandyNZL]

Kopite Girl, on 21 June 2012 - 09:21 PM, said:

Why are you talking at all?

Unless I'm very much mistaken, Vettel is german right? So shut it, Theroux.

@Handy - Listen. TWO more than Lewis. Duh! Where's my pizza?

I don't know where your pizza is, but Alonso has two championships, Lewis one, and my maths, and I admit that we down here in the colonies are not as well schooled as you lot back in the mother land, equates to one more than Lewis, not two.

And if you're really nice, Kay's will make you a pizza, just so long as you like bacon and salami and cheese

[BradSpeedMan]

LabradoRacer, on 21 June 2012 - 09:22 PM, said:

Why do you get so worked up if someone disses (whether subjectively or objectively) your fave driver? Take it easy, pal.

Stay out of it, it has nothing to do with you

I'm also not your "pal"!!!

Edited by BradSpeedMan, 22 June 2012 - 08:11 AM.

[BradSpeedMan]

Kopite Girl, on 22 June 2012 - 01:23 AM, said:

Bradley. My dear friend. If you are referring to my constant needling of Seb#####d Vettel may I remindeth you that I have for two years called him the best driver in F1. I don't have to like him.

Unless you're not really Brad. You're Vettel's Dad hacking Brad's account, aren't you? (i luuuuv yoooooooouuu!)

I like your needling Steph darling. But at least you admit he's good, and should be rated in the top 3...

[dribbler]

Kopite Girl, on 21 June 2012 - 09:21 PM, said:

Why are you talking at all?

Quite. I do wonder.

[LabradoRacer]

BradSpeedMan, on 22 June 2012 - 08:04 AM, said:

Stay out of it, it has nothing to do with you

I'm also not your "pal"!!!

Edit: Brad, I'm truly sorry for the tasteless shot I took at you.

Edited by LabradoRacer, 22 June 2012 - 02:30 PM.

[AleHop]

BradSpeedMan, on 21 June 2012 - 08:52 PM, said:

For god sake the guy has 2 championships and yet he has to prove his worth?

Alonso too has TWO championships and you still question his worth. :err: