74 replies to this topic

[Giorgio]

Traction control will be not an aid anymore for drivers in 2008...i dont think it should be banned as now we can see the optimum speed and lap times...i also dont think it is going to improve (by banning it)  the show as there are sooooo many factors why F1 today tends to be 'boring' (no overtakings). What do you think?

[monza gorilla]

I don't think we'll see much of a visible difference. But tyre wear will be affected. I think it is a good thing. Getting rid, I mean.

[Autumnpuma]

Overtaking won't come back when TC is ditched. Overtaking will only return when F1 returns to mechanical grip over aero grip.

Edited by Autumnpuma, 26 July 2007 - 06:06 PM.

[Quiet One]

Autumnpuma, on Jul 26 2007, 03:06 PM, said:

Overtaking won't come back when TC is ditched. Overtaking will only return when F1 returns to mechanical grip over aero grip.

It might mix up the field a little, though. Because some drivers will adapt faster to a non-TC car than others. Drivers that are fast but are accustomed to rely too much on TC will be hindered.

Just my opinion.

[Vegetableman]

Autumnpuma, on Jul 27 2007, 06:06 AM, said:

Overtaking won't come back when TC is ditched. Overtaking will only return when F1 returns to mechanical grip over aero grip.

I think we have to get less of both. Look at wet races, a ton of downforce but less mechanical grip, heaps of overtaking.
As far as I can see the best solution would be take alot of the downforce away from the top. Give them the ability to make some of that back from the undertray. And make bridgestone make a tyre that has much less mechanical grip. Oh and brake materials that make braking distances longer. That, I believe, is the main factor that contributes to low levels of overtaking, the extra-ordinarily short braking distances.

[aussief1]

The removal of Traction Control will make virtually no difference at all. What will change a little is the driveability of the engines and the power delivery. Drivers with smooth driving styles like Button / Coulthard will ease into the new no TC era. A driver like JPM would have a great time with power oversteer (if he where still racing in F1 that is!).

Some of the teams have already started to test with the TC turned off in preparation for next year.

Edited by aussief1, 27 July 2007 - 02:53 AM.

[aussief1]

Just a thought, this thread could be moved to Technical F1 rather than outside the F1 Circus

[Jez]

Just curious, are slicks back next year? Is is that 09?

[Eric]

Jez, on Jul 26 2007, 11:32 PM, said:

Just curious, are slicks back next year? Is is that 09?

Slicks were planned for 2008 but the idea was scrapped.  2009 is the most likely time for their return.

As for my thoughts on TC, I don't like it because the drivers should be good enough to drive without it.  End of story.  However, I doubt it'll make the racing all that much better.  It'll just **** Felipe Massa up.

[Yoda McFly]

Traction control comes from that thing on the end of your right foot.

As for whether banning it will help, not by itself.  As has been mentioned, numerous changes need to be made to increase overtaking; banning TC is just one of them.

On a related topic ... As a networking geek that only dabbles in hardware and embedded systems, the following seems "do-able" to me.  Any thoughts?

We always hear that TC is "too difficult to police" with the teams making/subcontracting their own ECUs.  Wouldn't it be possible for the FIA to homologate a given, sealed, ECU?  Allow a data port on the side that would allow scrutineering to plug a laptop/PC into the ECU and run some sort of checksum (MD5?) on the firmware, to ensure that it matches what was homologated.  That way, the FIA only has to look at the code once (or when it's updated, but minimise the number of software updates that are allowed over the season), but they can confirm that nothing hinky has been done to the box ...

Yes?  No?  Put down the crack pipe, Yoda?  

[narain fan]

Autumnpuma, on Jul 26 2007, 11:36 PM, said:

Overtaking won't come back when TC is ditched. Overtaking will only return when F1 returns to mechanical grip over aero grip.

it (return to mechancal grip over aero grip) wont happen with the current  regulations as the  current engines produce too much power for it to be "safe" to   reduce the dependance on  aerodynamic grip !!!!!!!!

[Eric]

narain fan, on Jul 28 2007, 10:24 PM, said:

it (return to mechancal grip over aero grip) wont happen with the current  regulations as the  current engines produce too much power for it to be "safe" to   reduce the dependance on  aerodynamic grip !!!!!!!!

2011 regs are hinting at more mechanical grip if I recall correctly (I'm having trouble recalling anything right now...where am you?  Is I me?)

[DOF_power]

Autumnpuma, on Jul 26 2007, 09:06 PM, said:

Overtaking won't come back when TC is ditched. Overtaking will only return when F1 returns to mechanical grip over aero grip.

That would be 1967.

Essentially, in modern F1, you need both types of grip, mecanical grip and clean aero-grip.
The bans on ground effects aerodynamic and then later its replacement active suspension based aerodynamic  (essentially a form of active movable aerodynamics) killed the spectacle.

Edited by DOF_Renault_BMW, 29 July 2007 - 08:23 AM.

[DOF_power]

Giorgio, on Jul 26 2007, 06:44 PM, said:

Traction control will be not an aid anymore for drivers in 2008...i dont think it should be banned as now we can see the optimum speed and lap times...i also dont think it is going to improve (by banning it)  the show as there are sooooo many factors why F1 today tends to be 'boring' (no overtakings). What do you think?

F1 TC shouldn't be comfused with production car traction control. F1 TC is not exactly a driver's aid, as much it is an engineer's aid.  
Those who benefit or benefited most from driver's aids are realy the WRC and/or Dakar drivers.

[DOF_power]

Yoda McFly, on Jul 29 2007, 05:16 AM, said:

Traction control comes from that thing on the end of your right foot.

As for whether banning it will help, not by itself.  As has been mentioned, numerous changes need to be made to increase overtaking; banning TC is just one of them.

TC control in F1 is actually a bad name given to a technological system that should not be comfused with classic/production car TC.

The ultimate form of real Traction Control is actually computer controled AWD systems. Used first by the Porsche 959 supercar witch won Dakar and was intended for Group B WRC.

If TC will have any effect on overtaking, it will most likely be for the worse. As full power will no longer be available so "easy", and engines will once again sacrifice power for "smooth" torque, chances are that overtakings will become even more rare.

[DOF_power]

Classic traction control compares the speed (i.e. the RPM) of the driven wheels with the speed of the car (i.e. the RPM of the undriven wheels, corrected for differences in tyre diameter). The control laws permit a certain amount of slip (i.e. a percentage that the driven wheels are faster than the undriven wheels), based on the slip ratio at which the tyres provide maximum traction. The next level of sophistication is to determine whether and how hard the car is cornering, and modify the maximum slip ratio accordingly, in order to provide priority to stability and control rather than traction. That may be great for road cars, helping to keep inattentive drivers from spinning when road conditions of rain, ice or snow catch them unawares or with insufficient skill to maintain control. However, most road car manufacturers who supply traction control systems provide an override switch to enable the skilled, sporting or unwise driver to exploit power oversteer.

Such an approach IS NOT USED on a (F1, nor as of 2007 Le Mans) racing car, nor does it make any sense.

[Max Mosley]

Yoda McFly, on Jul 29 2007, 03:16 AM, said:

We always hear that TC is "too difficult to police" with the teams making/subcontracting their own ECUs.  Wouldn't it be possible for the FIA to homologate a given, sealed, ECU?

Yes!  I would support such a change.  It would make the teams more equal, my main interest in terms of regulation changes, but it would certainly be possible and would offer many advantages such as being able to make the cars perform in ways that we wish, like not having TC.

DOF_Renault_BMW, on Jul 29 2007, 09:29 AM, said:

Classic traction control compares the speed (i.e. the RPM) of the driven wheels with the speed of the car (i.e. the RPM of the undriven wheels, corrected for differences in tyre diameter). The control laws permit a certain amount of slip (i.e. a percentage that the driven wheels are faster than the undriven wheels), based on the slip ratio at which the tyres provide maximum traction. The next level of sophistication is to determine whether and how hard the car is cornering, and modify the maximum slip ratio accordingly, in order to provide priority to stability and control rather than traction. That may be great for road cars, helping to keep inattentive drivers from spinning when road conditions of rain, ice or snow catch them unawares or with insufficient skill to maintain control. However, most road car manufacturers who supply traction control systems provide an override switch to enable the skilled, sporting or unwise driver to exploit power oversteer.

Such an approach IS NOT USED on a (F1, nor as of 2007 Le Mans) racing car, nor does it make any sense.

Good post.  So in modern F1, only the first version of TC that you explain is used?  In other words, traction is automatically maximised but nothing is done to automatically enhance control and stability?  Thanks for the informative posts.

[DOF_power]

I'll provide more info on F1 TC soon.

[Max Mosley]

Cheers!

[medilloni]

DOF_Renault_BMW, on Jul 29 2007, 11:57 AM, said:

I'll provide more info on F1 TC soon.

Sorry, into the thread late, but as Murray says some great posts.  DOF, thanks for finding the info and if you fall over it, any info on why the current systems employed by F1 teams also greatly affect the rear wheels locking up under decelleration/braking - this is supposed to make the braking distances longer and/or trickier too, which personaly I think is a good thing.

I'm in favour of the ban, along with re-introducing slicks - but as Patrick Head has said, this will need a major re-think in weight distribution; the current set-up (weight dist) doesn't fit the type of dynamics (controllable sliding) that the ban and slicks could bring into the mix.

Wouldn't be surprised if someone comes up with the idea of an 'intelligent' differential and gets away with it though - self contained, away from other electronics, probably within the diff housing.  Sound feasible or is it time for my pills?

[Autumnpuma]

Quiet One, on Jul 26 2007, 11:10 AM, said:

It might mix up the field a little, though. Because some drivers will adapt faster to a non-TC car than others. Drivers that are fast but are accustomed to rely too much on TC will be hindered.

The only place you'll see a difference is at the start. Some drivers control wheelspin better than others. Nobody will be hindered past that. Mark me.

narain fan, on Jul 28 2007, 07:24 PM, said:

it (return to mechancal grip over aero grip) wont happen with the current  regulations as the  current engines produce too much power for it to be "safe" to   reduce the dependance on  aerodynamic grip !!!!!!!!

I'm not concerned with 'safe'. I'm concerned with 'racing'.

[goferrarigo]

Autumnpuma, on Aug 30 2007, 05:12 PM, said:

The only place you'll see a difference is at the start. Some drivers control wheelspin better than others. Nobody will be hindered past that. Mark me.
I'm not concerned with 'safe'. I'm concerned with 'racing'.

I agree with you to some extent, but now all drivers and fia want safety with going green....

Have you seen the 2011 proposed rules... the rear wing design looks horrid....

btw, Welcome back, Mike

Edited by goferrarigo, 30 August 2007 - 10:17 PM.

[Quiet One]

Autumnpuma, on Aug 30 2007, 07:12 PM, said:

The only place you'll see a difference is at the start. Some drivers control wheelspin better than others. Nobody will be hindered past that. Mark me.

Yes, that was my first thought. But I have faith in the crappy designs for the post-TC era as we have them now. A nowadays unmanageable car will be a spinning liability around the track if TC is banned. At least I hope so I was very safety minded until the last couple of races. Now, I just want those $"&% cars to give me a good show! (the "$"&%" is in loving memory of SK wherever he is)

[Autumnpuma]

goferrarigo, on Aug 30 2007, 03:17 PM, said:

I agree with you to some extent, but now all drivers and fia want safety with going green....

Have you seen the 2011 proposed rules... the rear wing design looks horrid....

btw, Welcome back, Mike

Thanks, AJ! I'm aware of what 'is' in current motorsports, but I'm more concerned with what 'should be'. My first, middle and last concern for motorsports is to have the driver using all his skill in controlling the fastest cars. I don't want that compromised by needless safety and/or driver aids.

[Autumnpuma]

Quiet One, on Aug 30 2007, 03:44 PM, said:

Yes, that was my first thought. But I have faith in the crappy designs for the post-TC era as we have them now. A nowadays unmanageable car will be a spinning liability around the track if TC is banned. At least I hope so I was very safety minded until the last couple of races. Now, I just want those $"&% cars to give me a good show! (the "$"&%" is in loving memory of SK wherever he is)

Good point! The gap from team to team will no doubt decrease, but I don't think we will see any dramatic shake-up in the grid hierarchy.

[YHR]

I think without TC we will see drivers who are smooth end up with better tires near the end of the race.  This could lead to some overtaking.

[goferrarigo]

Autumnpuma, on Aug 30 2007, 05:45 PM, said:

Thanks, AJ! I'm aware of what 'is' in current motorsports, but I'm more concerned with what 'should be'. My first, middle and last concern for motorsports is to have the driver using all his skill in controlling the fastest cars. I don't want that compromised by needless safety and/or driver aids.

The major problem all comes down to whos perpective do you look from???

[Autumnpuma]

Mine, of course!

[DOF_power]

>



^ People make it sound like there's a "spec TC" and they're all the same in this thread like it's an on-off switch and no difference between teams in how the TC program is developed and integrated.

There's been much talk of late related to Hamilton's preference for setting the car up with more oversteer compared to other drivers and this suits the balance for these Bridgestones.

It would seem to me that TC programming for a driver that prefers oversteer to one who prefers understeer would be different as you integrate the front grip level into the overall package (since TC would affect rear grip RELATIVE to front ....and this year, it seems getting the front tyres right is the key).

One of the reasons that the McLaren/Ferrari supposedly has better 1 lap qualifying pace versus race pace is it's ability to run more front grip and how an oversteer setup would further enhance that. In terms of TC, your delivery of TC on an oversteering car could work against that setup package if you're too aggressive on it's delivery


1] The spot that I want to point to is that the techno reversionists that are so prevalent on here, seem to have this black box view of TC and that it's not a symbiotic tool rather than a crutch for lack of skill.
Also, the view on here seems to totally ignore integration and discounts driving style with TC.
Same people here wanting to go backwards in technology don't even consider the role of the steering wheel adjustments on the differential and brake bias adjustment , as well; if they are even aware of it - if they are, they don't acknowledge it.
Removing it will slow the cars for sure but a drop off in 1 car when TC being removed is NOT solely attributable to driving skill...my point was: there's some TC that is better than others.

The amount of performance drop off can also be due to how good the TC program was between teams and the balance of the car... Not all programs are the same in quality.
AND
how much TC was masking poor design balance (totally UNRELATED to driver input).

So what's with Montoya (or Villeneuve) ?!
He was an unadapted slacker; didn't worked with the team to the adapt the TC to his style, nor did he worked on his style to adapt to the TC.


2] Another misconception, TC reduces tire wear.
There are several forms of TC (throttle pedal as an engine torque demand, throttle pedal as a rear wheel torque demand, throttle pedal as a speed demand, throttle pedal as a slip ratio command and others).

The throttle pedal as a slip ratio command:
- controlling rear wheel slip ratio provides the driver with the means of either demanding the maximum acceleration the car can deliver (full pedal deflection), either limited by the traction available or the power available, or a means of steering the car under power by varying the slip ratio, and thus the location on the friction ellipse of the tyres at which they are operating. The slip ratio will be set as required by the driver's pedal, irrespective of engine characteristics, speed, or rear axle load (aerodynamic, load transfer or bump induced). He can still try and negotiate a corner too fast, and lose control, but under all conditions in which power is required, he will be operating at the maximum and still be able to steer the car on the "throttle", though now he has virtually no control over the engine throttles. Because he will nearly always be at the maximum slip ratio, tyre wear will become greater.  

This could be the reason, or a contributing factor, as to why Hamilton's tire blew up in Turkey.  


3] Misconception 3, TC can be policed, truly baned.
3.1] The standard ECU CAN BE hacked (and it will be).
3.2] There are other ways to put back TC besides ECU (this coming from people who write TC and actually have racing experience).
3.1] The (big) teams will have one form or another of TC (rest assured as they are working hard on it right now).

[goferrarigo]

Autumnpuma, on Aug 30 2007, 11:01 PM, said:

Mine, of course!

It's not that easy... there are too many stakeholders in F1....

FIA, drivers, team boss,                                                           fans.....

In that order......

So unless you change your category, i'm afraid it can't happen....