Quiet One

Kimi, You Cheater!

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I just read some random article at some random F1 site (my sources are impecable, as you can see) talking about a controversial move from Kimi on the first lap. I didn't notice it during the race (was too confused about Button and Hamilton's accident and didn't pay enough attention).

Truth is, right before the big crash, Kimi icuts the chicane and gains enough momentum to go up a couple of places which he never gave up. I found the replay of the manoeuvre and indeed seems so. In any case, nobody complained.

So: why didn't anybody complain? And why didn't the stewards penalize him like Hamilton was penalized last year? I am no friend of multiplying penalties because there is no end for the whining and crying afterwards when the stewards finally decide to let the darn drivers do their thing and just drive, I just find it odd.

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:lol: I think this thread is a joke, and I hope I'm correct! If not, expect to be met with the same criticisms of "Negative Ions" thread :P

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I did see this and I did complain for two days. Lots of other people I know also saw it, and well, nothing happened and nothing will happen.

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*yawn* Now I'm bored too. All of Lewis' and McLaren's penalties were, of course, rooted in Max Mosely's desire to see Ron Dennis removed from F1. He got that, the penalties stopped and sanity is temporarily restored. By 'sanity' I mean the common sense of racing. Kimi did nothing wrong and Lewis likewise did nothing wrong.

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:lol: I think this thread is a joke, and I hope I'm correct! If not, expect to be met with the same criticisms of "Negative Ions" thread :P

Blah, blah, Kimi, blah :P

Actually it's not a joke. I really think he gained unfair advantage with that manoeuvre and I don't know if I am mistaken and his move was perfectly legal or if it actually was a wrong move but nobody complained, in which case I would like to know why.

Unlike Negative Ions thread, this one is a question whose answer I honestly don't know.

Of course, feel free to bash me. We need a good forum brawl to shake things up a little :P

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I just read some random article at some random F1 site (my sources are impecable, as you can see) talking about a controversial move from Kimi on the first lap. I didn't notice it during the race (was too confused about Button and Hamilton's accident and didn't pay enough attention).

Truth is, right before the big crash, Kimi icuts the chicane and gains enough momentum to go up a couple of places which he never gave up. I found the replay of the manoeuvre and indeed seems so. In any case, nobody complained.

So: why didn't anybody complain? And why didn't the stewards penalize him like Hamilton was penalized last year? I am no friend of multiplying penalties because there is no end for the whining and crying afterwards when the stewards finally decide to let the darn drivers do their thing and just drive, I just find it odd.

Ermmm, where? Are we talking about when he went wide at La Source?

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Blah, blah, Kimi, blah :P

Actually it's not a joke. I really think he gained unfair advantage with that manoeuvre and I don't know if I am mistaken and his move was perfectly legal or if it actually was a wrong move but nobody complained, in which case I would like to know why.

Unlike Negative Ions thread, this one is a question whose answer I honestly don't know.

Of course, feel free to bash me. We need a good forum brawl to shake things up a little :P

Okay well since you're serious I'll give you a more serious reply (basically because I'm too tired and weak for a brawl).

Kimi didn't cut the chicane at the end of whatever straight it's called, he passed Kubica on the straight due to KERS and a tow (at least I think it was Kubi), and then he braked late to cement his 2nd position - so he couldn't have gained "a couple of places" by cutting the chicane, as he was already 2nd by the time he went off the track (note: not completely off the track, only a couple of wheels). Kubica (or whoever he passed) almost went into him. Behind him it all kicked off, possibly in part due to Kubica having to brake extra for Kimi being slow through the chicane which may have had a knock-on effect, although not for Button and Hammy who were always destined to be destroyed by the new kid on the block Alguuzeera.

So basically Kimi didn't make up any positions at the chicane on the first lap, and he certainly didn't cut it. He never straight-lined it or put all wheels off, to the best of my memory. He briefly ran off track, rejoined and slightly held up Kubica. You could argue that his pass on Kubi was illegitimate somehow because Kimi braked so late or whatever. That argument wouldn't really work either though, because he completed the pass on Kubi on the straight, not under braking.

So, to answer the question of why wasn't Kimi punished, for once the answer is simply: he did nothing wrong.

Oh and do be so kind to reveal your sources and a replay, just so I know you're not bollocking around :P

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I'm guessing this refers to Kimi going wide in the first corner? To be honest, I don't really see what is the alleged cheating he does. First of all, it appears he starts to go wide to avoid collision with Heidfeld (though does go then all the way to the safe area on purpose), and second, it is quite obvious he didn't gain any advantage by doing so: he was ahead of Kubica before going wide, but behind him when he returned to track (also, Button and Badoer followed Kimi along the same route, and they didn't appear to gain any advantage either, so that route couldn't really have been better than going along the track). He was able to pass Trulli and Heidfeld because they somehow screwed up the first corner, I don't understand why he should've slowed down to wait for them. Last, he didn't cut a corner/chicane, he drove a longer distance (though one can argue by doing so he was able to maintain a greater speed, I don't know in how good a condition the track is there).

This tends to happen each year in Spa, Button and Badoer pretty much followed Kimi. If I recall correctly, last year Hamilton drove the same way to avoid collision with Alonso, and he wasn't penalized for that either.

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He wasnt ahead of Nick before going wide (Nick was defending his position, Kubica overtook him on right and Kimi on left from outside). Also, what stays in the rules is that any maneouvre to avoid collision is allowed, but any positions achieved with it must be restored. And it's not on the chincane, he meant on the first curve. I don't care [/kimi] if he drove longer or shorter, what's on the rules is that overtakes are only alloowed in the track, and that makes it illegal.

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This video more or less sums it up

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gcjM6LYxS7k

I don't really agree though, at 0:19-0:20 he does not seem to have a lot of places to go as Trulli is squeezing Heideld to the inside and both are destinned for a wide exit. As the video states he can either step of the gas and lose a lot of places or keep pushing. At 0:21 he seems now to have the choice to stay on track but has already made his decision and gets away with it. A couple of years ago noone would be lifting an eyebrow about this but with last year's BS penalties I can see why some people are complaining. I think he did not gain a real advantage by going offtrack, merely controlled his damage, Nicky and Jarno slowed eachother down which is why Kubitza got by both of them also.

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He wasnt ahead of Nick before going wide (Nick was defending his position, Kubica overtook him on right and Kimi on left from outside). Also, what stays in the rules is that any maneouvre to avoid collision is allowed, but any positions achieved with it must be restored. And it's not on the chincane, he meant on the first curve. I don't care [/kimi] if he drove longer or shorter, what's on the rules is that overtakes are only alloowed in the track, and that makes it illegal.

I thought Andres was talking about at the end of the straight, because he said "chicane" and "cut". You can't really cut La Source which is more like a hairpin.

Anyway, to address your post: at the start of the race it's not so clear cut as to say "any positions gained around the outside at La Source are illegal". That would be ridiculous. The extra run off is their to be used to avoid collisions and some times that means gaining places too, what was KR supposed to do, run into the cars that were on the track? Or pass them around the outside then try and remember exactly who he passed and let them back through - thereby creating another dangerous situation with speed differences?

The fact is when you have extra tarmac at the exterior of a corner, on the first lap it is a "de facto" part of the track* (otherwise there would be a wall there), and the smartest drivers use it to their advantage. As long as they don't use it blatantly to gain position on the first lap, it shouldn't be an issue. I don't think KR used it blatantly, there was very little room and if he'd turned in there would have been a collision.

Tbh, like Martin Brundle said, I think Kimi probably planned to go around the outside at La Source because he knew there would be a first lap compression there (as always), but that's just speculative.

*e.g. when Alonso forced Hammy onto that section of tarmac at the start of the 2007 race, he didn't get penalised for dangerous driving or forcing a competitor off the track Schumi style. That's because the fact that it's a tarmac surface cannot be ignored, it's their to be used and abused by the drivers just like other parts of the track.

This video more or less sums it up

http://www.youtube.c...h?v=gcjM6LYxS7k

I don't really agree though, at 0:19-0:20 he does not seem to have a lot of places to go as Trulli is squeezing Heideld to the inside and both are destinned for a wide exit. As the video states he can either step of the gas and lose a lot of places or keep pushing. At 0:21 he seems now to have the choice to stay on track but has already made his decision and gets away with it. A couple of years ago noone would be lifting an eyebrow about this but with last year's BS penalties I can see why some people are complaining. I think he did not gain a real advantage by going offtrack, merely controlled his damage, Nicky and Jarno slowed eachother down which is why Kubitza got by both of them also.

It looks like if he'd tried to stay on track at that point there would have been a collision with the Toyota, knowingly staying on track and causing a collision is a worse offence than going wide and rejoining and arguably gaining some ground.

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heheeheh, this thread makes me laugh, come on Andres you can do better! Just because Alonso won't win a race this race (or the team plan another crash at Singapore) does'nt mean you have to take it out on others :P

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I just read some random article at some random F1 site (my sources are impecable, as you can see) talking about a controversial move from Kimi on the first lap. I didn't notice it during the race (was too confused about Button and Hamilton's accident and didn't pay enough attention).

Truth is, right before the big crash, Kimi icuts the chicane and gains enough momentum to go up a couple of places which he never gave up. I found the replay of the manoeuvre and indeed seems so. In any case, nobody complained.

So: why didn't anybody complain? And why didn't the stewards penalize him like Hamilton was penalized last year? I am no friend of multiplying penalties because there is no end for the whining and crying afterwards when the stewards finally decide to let the darn drivers do their thing and just drive, I just find it odd.

I think there is something the call it as Lap 1 first corner incident as oppose to middle of the race

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I remember hearing at some point over the weekend that Kimi actually planned to use the run-off at La Source. If that is true, there are surely grounds for a penalty. The run-off is not there to be used as an extension of the track, it is there to be used in an emergency. An on board would surely show the circumstances of how he arrived there.

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I think the ultimate proof that there was nothing wrong with his manouver is that no competitors complained even unofficially. There is no driver or team boss or anyone proffesional in F1 making slightest hint of foul play. I imagine they have much better understanding of the rules than we do.

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I just read some random article at some random F1 site (my sources are impecable, as you can see) talking about a controversial move from Kimi on the first lap. I didn't notice it during the race (was too confused about Button and Hamilton's accident and didn't pay enough attention).

Truth is, right before the big crash, Kimi icuts the chicane and gains enough momentum to go up a couple of places which he never gave up. I found the replay of the manoeuvre and indeed seems so. In any case, nobody complained.

So: why didn't anybody complain? And why didn't the stewards penalize him like Hamilton was penalized last year? I am no friend of multiplying penalties because there is no end for the whining and crying afterwards when the stewards finally decide to let the darn drivers do their thing and just drive, I just find it odd.

It seemed to me a replay of Hamilton's 2007 except that Kimi managed to pass some guys (KERRRRRRRRS) while Hamilton tried but couldn't. Both "should" have returned the positions gained but neither did.

There are some rumors out there that the reason why Kimi was not penalized is because Hamilton wasn't (in 2007). However, I've never seen FIA act on motives other than incompetence or swindle, so...

Edited by maure

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I think the ultimate proof that there was nothing wrong with his manouver is that no competitors complained even unofficially. There is no driver or team boss or anyone proffesional in F1 making slightest hint of foul play. I imagine they have much better understanding of the rules than we do.

true

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heheeheh, this thread makes me laugh, come on Andres you can do better! Just because Alonso won't win a race this race (or the team plan another crash at Singapore) does'nt mean you have to take it out on others :P

:lol:

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It seemed to me a replay of Hamilton's 2007 except that Kimi managed to pass some guys (KERRRRRRRRS) while Hamilton tried but couldn't. Both "should" have returned the positions gained but neither did.

There are some rumors out there that the reason why Kimi was not penalized is because Hamilton wasn't (in 2007). However, I've never seen FIA act on motives other than incompetence or swindle, so...

:clap3:Maure back to form.....

Throwing Sh#t as usual....:lol:

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He didn't cheat. That's racing. The end.

Is this the sad state we live in currently where we have to go "OMG, Penalty!" to any driver who overtakes another? No wonder we get snore fests sometimes, the drivers are too scared to overtake without having to face the rath of the paranoid fans.

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He didn't cheat. That's racing. The end.

Is this the sad state we live in currently where we have to go "OMG, Penalty!" to any driver who overtakes another? No wonder we get snore fests sometimes, the drivers are too scared to overtake without having to face the rath of the paranoid fans.

I'm just looking at the thread headline again and wondering where have we all gone wrong

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Sorry, I don't have internet at home for a while and having to write at work is just not the same. That is why I didn't post the youtube link (I can't look at it here) or the articles. You can look at the main page of TF1 for the related articles about it, though. That said, a couple of comments:

1) Yes, sorry, I meant the first curve. The replay was just after the crash so I made a mix up. The advantage comes from gaining more momentum with that move (a la Hamilton 2008). A close call, but not anymore than Lewis last year.

2) Let me quote myself " I am no friend of multiplying penalties because there is no end for the whining and crying afterwards when the stewards finally decide to let the darn drivers do their thing and just drive, I just find it odd."

In short: I am not calling for a penalty for Kimi. I am just saying that according to the stewards and teams past behavior it seems odd that they didn't penalize him or that the other teams didn't cry "foul!"

3) Anyways, from what I can see through the opinions here, it seems like it is not so obvious as it seemed to me watching the replay that he gained an advantage. When I watched the replay I was influenced by the article and perhaps that made me think it was pretty obvious.. Maybe it's just a question of judgemente and thus not a blatant breach for anybody to bother complaining. In any case, it's an interesting experiment on how my own perceptions could be changed by others.

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I remember hearing at some point over the weekend that Kimi actually planned to use the run-off at La Source. If that is true, there are surely grounds for a penalty. The run-off is not there to be used as an extension of the track, it is there to be used in an emergency. An on board would surely show the circumstances of how he arrived there.

So you don't think that this case was indeed an emergency? because I don't see what else he could have done.

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I just watched the video again and I can see that you all blind, Kimi got in the track right next to RK but he got more speed and pass him right away but I don't quite understand why we are just talking about Kimi and we don't say anything about the "unfear advantage" that the Brown behing Kimi took right there too? I guess that is RB who stalled at the start he gained several places there but who cares about that, he is not the winner and is not driving a Ferrari.

I can believe that a fan of that Singapure wall crashing race fixing team Alonso is blaming Kimi of cheating just becasue of this.

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