Mclaren Catastrophe!

[Senna's Ghost 0]

Bloody hell. You've started something now Puma. The natives are restless and they're about to storm the castle armed with pitch forks and burning torches. Don't worry though dear chap, I'll rescue you. Or, as you're from the US, would you prefer the metaphor of us circling the wagon and you riding shotgun. But before all that I'll go through your response and see if I can make my position any clearer for you as I can see you are struggling.

[quote name='Autumnpuma' timestamp='1300214658' post='331714']
I was called absurd and ridiculous and you equated my opinions to flighty horoscopes. Everything in your reply was hell-bent on mocking my opinions. The galling thing is, you didn't offer any reasons why my guesses weren't correct. It's easy to wait for someone to venture a thought or two and then bash them for it (your specialty, I've observed) than to come up with thought of your own.
[/quote]

No, I didn't call [u]you[/u] absurd and ridiculous. I said your specific post on that occasion was absurd and ridiculous. Do you see the difference? I normally enjoy your postings. That's why I was so disappointed in your cavalier dismissal of the McLaren's performance based on the publicity photographs. I didn't offer any justification as to why your guesses were incorrect because I don't know if they are, or are not, correct at this particular moment. That wasn't the motivation behind my original post. My motivation was to say you can't infer performance capability from publicity photographs (although I see in your later posts on this thread you still stand by your belief that [u]you[/u] can). Your guesses may prove to be 100% correct and on the money. I hope your wrong, not for any sense of schandenfreude, but I want a competitive McLaren to be in the hunt battling RBR, Ferrari et al. When have I bashed someone for having an opinion on this forum? Citation please. This is a forum. You put your view, I put my view. Sure the views may differ but as long as you have a reasoned arguement no harm done. I would strongly dispute this accusation.


[quote name='Autumnpuma' timestamp='1300214658' post='331714']
Oh, and I'm a Libra. Cardinal sign of our 'air' triumvirate. That means you're my beeatch.
[/quote]

Your letting yourself down here again. Your trying to assert your masculinity. Very good, but nobody wants to see it, so put it away.

[quote name='Autumnpuma' timestamp='1300214658' post='331714']
Again, you lash out at my opinions but offer no reason why they are wrong. At least Craig (HandyNZL) offers some genuine technical knowledge in response to my guesses. One thing you never quite consider is that people *outside* of an F1 team can have knowledge about F1 tech. Or is it that you're from a nation that doesn't encourage it's people to think for themselves? Do you just repeat what you read, having no thoughts except those that are fed you? How sad, if true.
[/quote]

I am not lashing out at your opinions, you are welcome to those. I am lashing out at the methods you have employed and the base material you are using to arrive at your opinion. There appears to be a significant difference from what I am writing to what you are reading and then interpreting that to be. As to where I'm from; I'm omni-present pal, I'm everywhere all at once. Anyway don't get me started on the nature of social freedom 'cause I'll be here all night.


[quote name='Autumnpuma' timestamp='1300214658' post='331714']
It begins to appear that you object to my venturing an opinion rather than the content of that opinion. Ask yourself why my opinions are so important to you that you'd lash out like this when you think I'm wrong? These are just my thoughts, right or wrong. No country will collapse if I'm wrong.....hence my exhortation that you 'lighten-up'.
[/quote]

Wrong. I said on my than one occasion now that I enjoy your contribution to this forum and your name is certainly one that I read more than some of the others. But because I respect your knowledge and experience I can't let you get away with lowering your standards like you did.


[quote name='Autumnpuma' timestamp='1300214658' post='331714']
I practice what I preach. I have followed that old Bible saying '[i]Before removing the stick from your neighbor's bum, first remove the beam from thine own[/i]'. I've been trying to avoid making the kinds of posts you have been making lately, the kind where you attack first and think later. I've 'lightened up' and I still recommend that you do as well. Either way, I *do* like your sense of humor.
[/quote]

That was a nice way to end your first response to my posting. I was heartened. But then.....


[quote name='Autumnpuma' timestamp='1300215682' post='331715']
Sometimes I just don't have the energy to write a dissertation with each of my posts, complete with source links and index. Funny, though...you question my conclusions about McLaren being slow in this thread which has proven the McLaren to be slow. It takes so littel to give credit where due. Think on that.
[/quote]

You say you've got so little energy to write a dissertation with your posts. I'm not surprised. I've done this for a year and I'm just over the tun. You've been going since '06 and you've racked up over 8,600. That's averaging over 1,700 posts a year. I'm surprised you've get much energy for anything after that lot. About the McLaren being slow, still inconclusive at this stage and I noticed that others have made similar comments to this.

[quote name='Autumnpuma' timestamp='1300215682' post='331715']
Amusing. When you 'point out the error of [someone's] ways' you need to give reasons why those ways are errors. I said the McLaren would have cooling problems. I gave a reason for it (U-shape radiator opening and slot to cool the electronics is in the dirty, turbulent air of the front tyre). If you disagree, you need to do more than call my post 'absurd' or seek to put my whole post in the 'flaky astrologist' light. You need to specify [b]why[/b] I'm wrong. You can only cure my 'errors' by giving me correct information to replace it with. I'm still waiting for that information.
[/quote]

I believe I've answered this point in this and previous postings I have made but I'll have another go. McLaren has a great deal of data and information at it's finger tips relating to the cooling of the car and it's ancillaries. I don't think that they would compromise this in their design. Yes, they want to minimise the cooling surfaces as much as possible as these create drag, but their design tools would show early on in the process if the car is marginal on cooling capacity. There will be a contingency factor built in. If it turns out that the car does have cooling issues then there needs to be a review of the data that the computers and simulators have generated and find out where the disconnect lies.

[quote name='Autumnpuma' timestamp='1300215682' post='331715']
You're predicting Sauber to be 6th. What a bombshell. They've been around 6th for most of their history in the sport! You, sir, are the kind of person that has very little technical knowledge but would like us to think you do. If you want your objections to others' technical opinions to have any weight, start proving your technical prowess first.
[/quote]

I think this is a good shout myself. I ruled Sauber out of winning the championship and then worked backwards from there. I think a leap from 8th to 6th would be a fantastic season for Sauber considering where they were at the beginning of last year. In order to finish 6th a team like Force India or Williams or Renault Lotus will have to be beaten regularly. That will be no mean feat for two young, relatively inexperienced drivers and a modest budget after the heady days of BMW money. They scored 44pts last season, I reckon they'll get 60pts+ maybe even 70pts (if we have 20 race season). With regards to my technical knowledge I am quitely confident. I know which way is forward, but I still can't judge the airflow over a car's surfaces, and how this will equate to performance, just by looking at it. I'll leave that to the experts.

Special mention to #46. What a couple of posts you've written there. My god it was like witnessing Perry Mason at work.

Are we all happy? And can we all be friends again? Come on the season's about to begin and I can't wait.

[Max Mosley 2]

But I know that I (and [EDIT: some] others) have plenty of faults too, so please don't consider this a slight against you - we're none of us Max Mosley's perfect. I'm obtuse, pedantic, arrogant, sarcastic, ignorant, twat-faced... - we only have 9 days to Australia, so I'll stop there

Wow, with two minor alterations, you and I can finally find some common ground, you socialist, do-gooding fellow, you.

In amongst all the arguing here, I think there's a degree of truth to both views. Of course Mike was taking a bit of a punt on McLaren not being quick, in that you can't know for sure just from looking at the pictures. On the other hand, you probably can tell something from them. For example, the design is clearly radical and not done by Adrian Newey - even that could be enough to predict a higher than normal chance of reliability problems and under-performance. You probably can have a guess as to some more detailed technical characteristics of a car as well, like a tendency to over-heat or over-steer, though of course the engineers will have thought of them and you must judge how much confidence you have in their ability to overcome these issues.

Whilst Mike was certainly gambling a little bit, that's what most of us do here, though perhaps to a lesser extent. For example, we Lewisterics think that Alonso was mainly to blame for his falling out with McLaren, and the Alonso fans tend to pin more of the blame on Ron Dennis. None of us knows for sure - we just make a best guess.

[yurp 0]

Wow, with two minor alterations, you and I can finally find some common ground, you socialist, do-gooding fellow, you.

In amongst all the arguing here, I think there's a degree of truth to both views. Of course Mike was taking a bit of a punt on McLaren not being quick, in that you can't know for sure just from looking at the pictures. On the other hand, you probably can tell something from them. For example, the design is clearly radical and not done by Adrian Newey - even that could be enough to predict a higher than normal chance of reliability problems and under-performance. You probably can have a guess as to some more detailed technical characteristics of a car as well, like a tendency to over-heat or over-steer, though of course the engineers will have thought of them and you must judge how much confidence you have in their ability to overcome these issues.

Whilst Mike was certainly gambling a little bit, that's what most of us do here, though perhaps to a lesser extent. For example, we Lewisterics think that Alonso was mainly to blame for his falling out with McLaren, and the Alonso fans tend to pin more of the blame on Ron Dennis. None of us knows for sure - we just make a best guess.

Yep - my thoughts too. Both view points have plenty to back them up and apart from the tit-for-tat sniping it could have been a good discussion.

As for two minor alterations, make that 3 - I'm not into sexy role-play with multiple prostitutes.

...hang on.

Two it is then.

[HandyNZL 1]

*sigh*

I had something. Then it left.

[HandyNZL 1]

*something to say

*left my head

Hope that clarifies the issue.

[yurp 0]

*something to say

*left my head

Hope that clarifies the issue.

if you forgot, it probably wasn't wor...

[Rainmaster 7]

Okay folks.

Let's all take a deep breath. The season hasn't even begun so it's really quite unfair of you all to get a jump on me when it comes to turning forum 'misunderstandings' into forum 'arguments'.

Perhaps I can ask (not arrogantly, but as a fully paid up member of our lovely little community) that peeps be a little less sensitive and simultaneously a little less offensive. Victim-hood doesn't work well as an excuse to act just as impolitely (if not more so) to the perceived insulter.

Mike - I know you to be a passionate and thoughtful poster who perhaps sometimes takes offence and dishes it out a little quickly - I hope that's fair comment. At least that has been my take from our previous disagreements and from reading this particular thread.

But I know that I (and others) have plenty of faults too, so please don't consider this a slight against you - we're none of us perfect. I'm obtuse, pedantic, arrogant, sarcastic, ignorant, twat-faced... - we only have 9 days to Australia, so I'll stop there

So let's all hug and look forward to seeing the comparative speeds of RBs, Macs, Mercs, Ferraris, Saubers, Loti (that's plural for Lotus ), TRs et al in 9 days.

The anticipation is something we can all giggle about together like teenage schoolgirls in the playground when they spot the class hunk from year 6 swaggering by.

9 DAYS! Teeheehee. I think I peed my pants.

EDIT

PS #46 is George isn't it? Correct me if I'm wrong - I was gone for most of the winter break.

EDIT EDIT

Cue Andres with the twatmobile!...

...where is that jerk when you need him?

Yes you beautiful Twatface it is I, and yes, none of us are perfect and you are all of those terrible things. I'm also quite..erm..trying to think..nope.. I'm perfect. But the rest of you lot really are awful.

[Rainmaster 7]

Special mention to #46. What a couple of posts you've written there. My god it was like witnessing Perry Mason at work.

It's decided. Perry Mason will be my next forum name.

[monza gorilla 1]

As you wish. But I shall call you Raymond.

[Rainmaster 7]

Because everybody loves me?

[Jenson_Rules 0]

I have a feeling it's going to be a very tough start to the season for Mclaren but I think they will catch up with the others and be contenders for wins, the championships however are out of the question this season I thinK!

I hope I am proved wrong though!

[AleHop 0]

I never believed statements like "it's only testing" or "it's just a standing picture." If that were true nobody would care much about it and the truth is that most F1 experts and teams have a deep look at launch pictures and analize lap times during testing. Of course the meaning of those pictures is less important if the car shows nothing new but that McLaren design was saying something with that radical sidepods etc. The debate is a bit too hot for a preseason as boring as this one.

Whilst Mike was certainly gambling a little bit, that's what most of us do here, though perhaps to a lesser extent. For example, we Lewisterics think that Alonso was mainly to blame for his falling out with McLaren, and the Alonso fans tend to pin more of the blame on Ron Dennis. None of us knows for sure - we just make a best guess.

I know for sure that your guess isn't the best one.

It's decided. Perry Mason will be my next forum name.

If you pick that name, I'll change mine to Atticus.

Or it could be Poirot, Holmes... Who would pick Marple?

[Insider 0]

I agree with this.

For all the same reasons, I think we should be cautious about damning the new McLaren until it's actually bench marked against the opposition in race trim. As others have said, Woking have a good record on turning around the fortunes of what is apparently a lemon, quite quickly. I have no idea how it all works from a design point of view, but my hunch is that they are on to something but have yet been unable to unlock the car's potential.

I have to say too, that it would be easy to be smug about the apparent performance of the Red Bull, but I flipped a metaphoric coin. My opinion was only based on the fact that Red Bull have been at the sharp end for a while now, so I saw no reason for that to change. It was hardly the most shrewd prediction that they would indeed be at the fron again (that's assuming they will be).

The shrewd predictions were ones I remember that people like Shaun made about the Brawn. I was one of those who said there ws no chance of them being at the front; the team were seemingly in termoil after Honda pulled the plug. I think he cdalled it differently. I was wrong, the rest is history.Shaun has predicted a 'good' season for Williams. I'm looking forward to seeing how that one pans out. It seems like there is a spot up for grabs as 'best of the rest' behind Red Bull and Ferrari. It would make my year if Team Willy could assume that mantle. If it happens, I will be tapping up Shaun to find out where he buys his crystal balls. They might be golden by then....

*acknowledgement of bad spelling and punctuation - but with no motivation to change it*

Although I still think Williams will be very competitive, I feel they may be eagerly challenged by Torro Rossa and a very lively Sauber. STR were a surprise for me in testing with their all-new car and I expect them to have a man vying for the second row on a regular basis but I would always write Peter off at my peril. He has filled his coffers well and chosen a fine driver team by the look off it. I like the cut of Maldonado too. McLaren are on the back foot in a big way and if any one of the seminal midfielders want to move up a class this is their chance. Overall, watch out for Michael Schumacher. Ross has the alternative exhaust feature working just right and at last the Red Baron has a car worthy of his skill set.

[Quiet One 15]

Although I still think Williams will be very competitive, I feel they may be eagerly challenged by Torro Rossa and a very lively Sauber. STR were a surprise for me in testing with their all-new car and I expect them to have a man vying for the second row on a regular basis but I would always write Peter off at my peril. He has filled his coffers well and chosen a fine driver team by the look off it. I like the cut of Maldonado too. McLaren are on the back foot in a big way and if any one of the seminal midfielders want to move up a class this is their chance. Overall, watch out for Michael Schumacher. Ross has the alternative exhaust feature working just right and at last the Red Baron has a car worthy of his skill set.

I agree. Remember when Alonso said the same and everybody laughed at him? What the heck, even I took it with a pinch of salt.

STR seems to be on the rise. The problem for all midfielders is always the same: they can talk the talk, but have problems when walking the walk. Most of them run out of steam before mid season. Reme,ber Force India...

Few "midfield" teams can survive a whole season improving. Team Poochie is one. If STR can show some good promise and RBR is having another brilliant year, then they might get enough funding to follow the same route. Williams is having a management crysis, more than a car design one (they can design a good car, they can't get their management to know what to do with it after race 1). Sauber is running against their own ghosts. They need to swim or sink.

I hope Schumi can beat the hell out of Britney and that this year's Merc can deliver...now all we need is for Macca to get their act together and we will have a 2010 re run, but with Lewis and Schumi seriously in contention. Ah, the battles ahead...a man can only dream...

[Kopite Girl 0]

I also said that Brawn would be an excellent car. Pfft, leave me out of everything. Huff. Some people just don't appreciate genius is all. Go ahead, I'll show ya.

(It wasn't difficult to predict really, seeing as Honda gave up on the RA108 more or less two races in. The Brawn RB01 had almost a year ahead on everybody else.)

I'm thinking this McLaren will develop better under race conditions. The two drivers are both experienced enough to provide excellent feedback. We'll see what happens next weekend.

Next weekend. Oh YEAH baby!

[HandyNZL 1]

Steeeph....stop telling everyone what we're up to next weekend...shush you!

[Kopite Girl 0]

Crap! Looks like your gonna have to use that tape on me again.

[HandyNZL 1]

I thought it was your turn to use it on me?

[BradSpeedMan 6]

my innocent innocent eyes

[Insider 0]

I also said that Brawn would be an excellent car. Pfft, leave me out of everything. Huff. Some people just don't appreciate genius is all. Go ahead, I'll show ya.

(It wasn't difficult to predict really, seeing as Honda gave up on the RA108 more or less two races in. The Brawn RB01 had almost a year ahead on everybody else.)

I'm thinking this McLaren will develop better under race conditions. The two drivers are both experienced enough to provide excellent feedback. We'll see what happens next weekend.

Next weekend. Oh YEAH baby!

I heard you, Steph.

[Insider 0]

Whitmarsh has announced a new floor and exhaust system for Oz. He reckons it'll make the car a second faster. Shall I start bakin that crow pie?

[BradSpeedMan 6]

Whitmarsh has announced a new floor and exhaust system for Oz. He reckons it'll make the car a second faster. Shall I start bakin that crow pie?

Somehow, somewhy, I feel very optimistic about it.....Go Mclaren!

http://www.totalf1.com/full_story/view/370251/McLaren_makes_major_changes/

[Quiet One 15]

With no winter testing of the modifications and keeping in mind the impact those changes might have on the car's balance, it will be a hit or miss come Melbourne. So yes, you might back it up. You can also back up HRT based on the performance the HRT 2011 had so far...

[freaky2 1]

Cruel

[HandyNZL 1]

With no winter testing of the modifications and keeping in mind the impact those changes might have on the car's balance, it will be a hit or miss come Melbourne. So yes, you might back it up. You can also back up HRT based on the performance the HRT 2011 had so far...

Why yes, this is true. HRT will be true to their practice season form and come Sunday will be parked in the garage.