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KoolMonkey

Are We Losing F1? Or Has It Been Lost Already?

31 posts in this topic

So called cost cutting has been an abolute disaster. We've gone from having V10s, to V8s, engine restrictions, frozen this and that, regulated up the wazoo to infinity and beyond.

The V6 Turbos from the 80s sounded fan'fkn'tastic. None of us here knew these modern versions of the V6 Turbo where going to sound this bad. A year ago Bernie warned people they were going to be bad, I at that time, thought come off it, it can't be that bad, it will be ok in the end. It's not. They sound like crap. F1 is the pinnacle of motorsport, or it's supposed to be. The positives are there, but the negatives are just as important. If or when they introduce canopies, am I supposed to blindly love it, because I'm an F1 fan? No I can choose to say F it, and voice my disapproval. I feel my sport is losing it's soul. Not because of change, but because of change instigated to achieve goals that make no sense. If the sport wanted to save money, they shuold have stuck with the V10s. But they plowed millions into the V8s, then banned testing, made teams have to use their engines and gearboxes for multiple races, blah blah, it goes on, in the many things that one could consider didn't need to happen.

F1 is moving away from what it's supposed to be, the pinacle, the top echelon of designers, technicians, mechanics and racers. It's too tightly controlled, even more than a spec series. We're never going to be wowed or disgusted with the 6 wheelers, the walruses, active suspension ever again. At this rate they might as well drive SMART cars around the track, since it's good on the fuel mileage.

I had such high hopes when Todt was appointed, and I must say, the noses, the sound, the whole show feels like it's dying a slow death. What to speak of the BS about fuel sensors and how they don't actually work, despite costing $40,000 each or something stupid. The trick apparently is to just keep buying more, until you get one that works. That reminds me of some produce farmers I knew some years back who explained to me that it took more than a gallon of diesel to make a gallon of ethanol, and also used up prime food to somehow give us a product that was going to be good for the environment.

F1 is near broken at the moment. No one seems to have a clue. The noses should have been resolved by the 2nd race of this year, not next year. I believe not only are they a laughing stock to the rest of the world, but a serious danger. I've never seen any motorsport series in the world that let's a team have a protruding battering ram sticking out front of their car. It might work for Mad Max, but it's utterly bizarre on both safety and aesthetic grounds. We will see a bad accident this year, and it will involve someone getting speared.

The fuel sensor debacle needs to be addressed pronto. RBR are legally correct in what they did, but I think will get penalized anyway, because egos are involved. The FIA don't like being told they are wrong. It's lunacy to make the teams use a product that from the sounds of it, is grossly overpriced and doesn't even work accurately. Teams have 100kg of fuel to use in a race, that is enough for me. Let them work out how to use it, not be also monitored to the point I have never seen or heard of before. It is madness to be in a position, whereby the FIA can radio any team or car and tell them to slow down. Think of that for a minute and let it sink in.

The V6s I'm sure are amazing pieces of tech. But the sound is just as important. This isn't a PRIUS Celebrity race. With a modded exhaust and a few tricks, we could get louder and higher pitched cars. And maybe also, get them running at 15k RPM. Due to the fuel sensor insanity, the teams don't run them past 12k RPM !!

Maybe F1 needs to fail, fall on it's a## and then we can rebuild. Because as it stands, it's too restricted, too controlled and no one from Bernie to the FIA seems to be aware of the repercussions of their bizarre rulings at times.

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Sorry, don't agree.

F1 IMHO is a lot more "found" this season than the last four where it was totally predictable and boring (and it's not just me that thought that - official viewing figures were in decline). This year's cars are more of a handful and it has thrown a lot more into the mix.

As for the sound - first race I thought "ooo err" but watching qually today I didn't even notice. Sorry, but if an F1 fan switches off because he/she does not like the sound then they are not a proper fan. There's so much more to it than a screaming engine note. It's just change that people don't like and I'm finding all the press and other comment is now getting a bit boring.

As for technological innovation - if you look behind the thinking of the new power trains, they represent the single greatest technical advancement in years of engine design. F1 has to be at the forefront of technical innovation and they are doing so with these engines. Once they have mastered them, they will be awesome power trains....

Just my two penn'orth for what it is worth.

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I agree with you Koolmonkey, you've hit the nail on the head

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Incidentally, the FFS units are about £5000 each, which is a drop in the ocean. They also use the same ones at Le Mans (albeit in pairs, externally) without much of a problem. There is a perfectly good reason for using them, as well. No need to elaborate because I'm sure we're all smart enough to work it out. Think about it and let it sink in.

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Every time there has been change in F1 folk have predicted a mass exodus of fans, the sport imploding, right from the original turbo era to now, F1 is still around, the bottom line is if folk don't like it they have a choice not to watch anymore, F1 is not going to change and the teams will not chuck millions of investment in engines down the drain just because of the sound

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Every time there has been change in F1 folk have predicted a mass exodus of fans, the sport imploding, right from the original turbo era to now, F1 is still around, the bottom line is if folk don't like it they have a choice not to watch anymore, F1 is not going to change and the teams will not chuck millions of investment in engines down the drain just because of the sound

But...but...but...all the teams quit when the Pirelli tires blew at Silverstone, and the fans watch IndyCar now! And all the circuits switched to Le Mans when F1 went to those useless V8s! Remember when they banned those winglets for 2009? Why, I sure don't, because I had already quit watching with the rest of the world when they moved the engines to the rear!

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F1 became a TV show a long while back and, sure enough, it's made oodles of money for, among others, certain actors, producers, directors, and sideline cheerleader journalists.

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So called cost cutting has been an abolute disaster. We've gone from having V10s, to V8s, engine restrictions, frozen this and that, regulated up the wazoo to infinity and beyond.

Because without regulations, you all complain that the same driver wins every race. Last year was about the most negative I've ever seen this forum.

If or when they introduce canopies, am I supposed to blindly love it, because I'm an F1 fan? No I can choose to say F it, and voice my disapproval.

In the same way you have a right to not like it, don't people who do still like it have a right to like it free from the panic of others that the sport is dead? There are many other things you can watch. I took a break from F1 during the 2010 and 2011 seasons. I didn't watch many races at all then. I felt recharged in 2012 and never enjoyed F1 more than I have since. Taking breaks can be really nice.

F1 is moving away from what it's supposed to be, the pinacle, the top echelon of designers, technicians, mechanics and racers

Based on what? They are the same designed, technicians, mechanics, and racers we had last year. And for years before that. If this is a problem now, it must also have been a problem then, but no one voiced it.

Who are the top designers, technicians, mechanics, and racers who are not in F1, but should be, and where are they instead? And why are they there? Please answer this.

It's too tightly controlled, even more than a spec series.

Find a spec series and try it out. The grass may be greener for you, and if it is, enjoy it. If it is not, then you'll know. Believe me when I say F1 is not tightly controlled at all in regards to modern motorsport.

Some praise Le Mans-style racing as this wide open thing...but there's so much BoP (Balance of Performance) going on there. Kilograms here, boost there, etc, etc. And teams are often running customer cars, or cars that are a few years old. Hardly what it is made out to be in terms of "wide open."

The only other series I know of that has a component of constructors in it is NASCAR, which opened up the regulations a bit more this year in terms of what teams could do with car setup. And guess what? Now everyone's whining that the tires are failing because the teams get too aggressive with the setup in these new rules, which then gives the tire company heat, which then sends us right back into regulation. But NASCAR racing's been the best it has been in my entire lifetime this year, so I enjoy it while it's good.

The hallowed Formula E, which I love as a concept and can't wait to see, promises to have budget-capped constructors soon. But promises mean little right now. The series needs to get going before we really understand what is feasible, and that's the real excitement/appeal for me.

We're never going to be wowed or disgusted with the 6 wheelers, the walruses, active suspension ever again.

Have you seen the noses this year? Of course you have, because in your next paragraph, you complain about them!

Do you not realize how that makes no sense? You're missing being disgusted by weird designs, and here we have eleven weird designs for you. Each cars looks so radically different. And you're missing it because it isn't "your era."

The noses should have been resolved by the 2nd race of this year, not next year.

But the six-wheelers and walruses should live on forever? You miss them.

The fuel sensor debacle needs to be addressed pronto. RBR are legally correct in what they did, but I think will get penalized anyway, because egos are involved. The FIA don't like being told they are wrong. It's lunacy to make the teams use a product that from the sounds of it, is grossly overpriced and doesn't even work accurately. Teams have 100kg of fuel to use in a race, that is enough for me. Let them work out how to use it, not be also monitored to the point I have never seen or heard of before. It is madness to be in a position, whereby the FIA can radio any team or car and tell them to slow down. Think of that for a minute and let it sink in.

Not disagreeing that the sensors need to do their job, but I offer this:

The FIA does not want a Grand Prix in which teams burn up a ton of fuel early to build a huge lead, then coast around at the end with enough cushion that it doesn't matter. Regulating fuel flow keeps the teams on more even terms.

Maybe F1 needs to fail, fall on it's a## and then we can rebuild. Because as it stands, it's too restricted, too controlled and no one from Bernie to the FIA seems to be aware of the repercussions of their bizarre rulings at times.

I read this every year about NASCAR, about IndyCar, about sports car racing, about touring car racing, etc.

Guess what?

These series never fail, never rebuild, and continue to profit on people who tune in only to make themselves miserable.

I wish racing had actual fans. I know I enjoy all the racing I watch. I don't run the series. I'm not qualified to. It makes no difference to me if millions of others are watching on TV or if a dozen people are in the audience. I just like racing, and while I'm not trying to say I'm some wonderful, super person for it, it would be nice if there were other people in this world who actually enjoyed the same thing I enjoy. As it stands, we just have a bunch of a want-to-be business analysts projecting attendance on personal whims, crunching fake TV numbers FOM produces, and predicting demises that never come.

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I wish racing had actual fans. I know I enjoy all the racing I watch. I don't run the series. I'm not qualified to. It makes no difference to me if millions of others are watching on TV or if a dozen people are in the audience. I just like racing, and while I'm not trying to say I'm some wonderful, super person for it, it would be nice if there were other people in this world who actually enjoyed the same thing I enjoy. As it stands, we just have a bunch of a want-to-be business analysts projecting attendance on personal whims, crunching fake TV numbers FOM produces, and predicting demises that never come.

Good stuff.

With regards to the above comment, I do believe racing does have actual fans, I am not so sure the internet does though.........

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I wish racing had actual fans. I know I enjoy all the racing I watch. I don't run the series. I'm not qualified to. It makes no difference to me if millions of others are watching on TV or if a dozen people are in the audience. I just like racing, and while I'm not trying to say I'm some wonderful, super person for it, it would be nice if there were other people in this world who actually enjoyed the same thing I enjoy. As it stands, we just have a bunch of a want-to-be business analysts projecting attendance on personal whims, crunching fake TV numbers FOM produces, and predicting demises that never come.

I tip my hat to you,sir.

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Not disagreeing that the sensors need to do their job, but I offer this:

The FIA does not want a Grand Prix in which teams burn up a ton of fuel early to build a huge lead, then coast around at the end with enough cushion that it doesn't matter. Regulating fuel flow keeps the teams on more even terms.

I agree with most everything you said, with the exception of the above. Playing with different scenarios in my head, there are a number of different ways of entertaining the hell out of me.

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That's all anyone wants, is entertainment, good racing, and more again next weekend.

What some are missing here is that there is only so much people can take, myself included of the changes, rules, regulations and constant restrictions to the sport we love. Each change by itself isn't game changing, but add them all up over the past 10-15 years and you can see, that soon it will be c#ckpit canopies, fully electric cars and so on. That's not what people want of F1 as those things can fail or flourish in other series. To me F1 is losing that shine, that sparkle, the clear cut pinnacle of motorsport. It doesn't take a genius to understand that our sport has a problem when GP2 cars are quicker, and sound better.

Ferrari's recent survey showed over 80% of respondents do not like F1 in it's current form. So much so that Luca & Bernie are meeting with Todt to hopefully do something about it.

F1 does not need fuel restrictions. It doesn't need so much of that we're not saddled with.

The cycle of seeing this great sport shoot itself in the foot with needless rule changes, regulation and design changes, new engines, each getting worse every era, it all adds up to discontent, it allows people to go you know what, I'm not that really into watching F1 at the moment.

I'm a mad F1 fan. I was there watching live on TV when Senna crashed, I was there watching for so many other great moments. But now, I feel so disinterested, so removed from the spectacle. And that moment really came home during the Malaysian GP when on the many long camera shots, helicopter shots etc., the cars were utterly silent. They looked and felt weak, timid, like I was back watching A1GP, or something you get so excited about and then realize, WTF this is actually crap.

Hopefully Kimi or Vettel can get some good races happening soon, because I think I'll just take the extra hours of sleep at the moment and watch the highlight package of the races from now on. And I hate feeling that way. I don't necessarily want the OLD F1 back, but I can't stand the F1 we have at the moment. Change is ok, but when it's sucking the soul out of the sport, then change for change sake alone isn't working. When you end up with a good or even better result, then everyone can agree that change was effective. Why break something good, and end up with rubbish.

I have no idea who this all falls upon either. Is it Whiting, who has a track record of approving car inventions and great ideas, only to then rule then illegal 3 races into the season? Is it Todt who we hardly ever see or hear from? I wish we did hear more from him. Is it the teams who maybe don't actually send the team heads to the rule meetings and have a rep or secretary give their collective approval? Where is all this stuff coming from?

Edited by KoolMonkey

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You know, I just don't get all this fuss over the sound.

Try switching off the sound on your telly and watching a race from the current series and one from last year and tell me which one shows more exciting racing, overtaking, etc... I'd be interested to see the results...

As for Ferrari, well their car is not up to speed, so naturally they will talk to Todt "the new cars are cr*p, etc" - I wonder if they would be doing this if Alonso had won all the races to date?

Renault had threatened to quit if the engine formula had not been changed - so where would that have left F1?

Edited by Grabthaw the Hammerslayer

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You know, I just don't get all this fuss over the sound.

Try switching off the sound on your telly and watching a race from the current series and one from last year and tell me which one shows more exciting racing, overtaking, etc... I'd be interested to see the results...

As for Ferrari, well their car is not up to speed, so naturally they will talk to Todt "the new cars are cr*p, etc" - I wonder if they would be doing this if Alonso had won all the races to date?

Renault had threatened to quit if the engine formula had not been changed - so where would that have left F1?

You have too much common sense for this forum. You are disgusting! Seriously! :D

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No team complains when they are winning, it's just a fact of motorsports.

You are probably right Grabthaw about switching off the sound, but then again they've done it for us, so I don't have to mute the TV. But who watches movies with the sound turned all the way down? How about music, who listens to music on mute?

Go watch a blockbuster in a surround sound theather, and then watch it on a tiny little black & white tv with a mono speaker. Same movie... different experience.

Just as smell can enhance something or a situation, so can sound.

Maybe the supposed rumours of Bernie messing with the ontrack microphones so as to make the cars sound even worse are true. Who knows.

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You have too much common sense for this forum. You are disgusting! Seriously! biggrin.png

Sorry Andres, I had a rare lucid moment :) - I'll go and lie down with a damp towel over my head.... :)

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To the naysayers, this race proved the new regs are not rubbish.

What a cracker of a race.

Vettel looked a little sick compared to his team mate.

Ferraris just looked sick.....

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This season is proving what I (and many others) have been saying....more dependency on mechanical grip in the twisty bits will bring us back to that antiquated sport called 'racing'..

Downforce has always been a wild goose chase. Somewhere along the way we lost the basic ingredients to racing: Ballsy drivers, grippy tyres and powerful engines. If one keeps adding up more and more downforce and aero cleverness, you reach a Rubicon of sorts.

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What has provided endless amusment is the hypocrisy of a certain section of fans( not anyone here as far as I know) who argued over the last few years that if RB disappeared into the distance at 1 second a lap it was up to the over teams to catch up, now the shoe is on the other foot it all so unfair errrrrr.gif

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Well after that last race I'm relishing more. Fair play to Merc for allowing their drivers to race like that even when it came so close to disaster countless times. It entertained us all and Merc for me have gone up a notch in my books.

I already dont really care about the sound any more (although I still maintain that if I went to silverstone I'd be disappointed by it), if we get plenty of races like this in 2014 we really can't have many complaints

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