Game Over For Jv?

[Senna 0]

Heh, DC has 13 wins, JV has 11, RB has 9.

Imho, DC and RB are both better drivers than JV anyway.

(if we also see how many points they have)

And Moss with 16 wins is better driver than all three, no matter he is not WC.

Nigel Mansell, for examlpe is the another end of 1-time Champions:

NM has 31 wins, but this is more than any 3-time WC, but Senna.

JV is noway better (as a driver) than DC, RB, JPM, KR, FA, etc =)

just his (JV`s) achievements are very good in 96-97, but it was mostly Williams not JV ...

Good analysis and you

[bajo39 0]

Heh, DC has 13 wins, JV has 11, RB has 9.

Imho, DC and RB are both better drivers than JV anyway.

(if we also see how many points they have)

And Moss with 16 wins is better driver than all three, no matter he is not WC.

Nigel Mansell, for examlpe is the another end of 1-time Champions:

NM has 31 wins, but this is more than any 3-time WC, but Senna.

JV is noway better (as a driver) than DC, RB, JPM, KR, FA, etc =)

just his (JV`s) achievements are very good in 96-97, but it was mostly Williams not JV ...

Most of your analysis is quite good but I would disagree with your conclusion that Montoya is better than Villeneuve and would welcome more discussion (decoded, of course) on that subject. I think Montoya has demonstrated this season that he was far over-rated as a result of being matched against (perhaps even a further) over-rated Ralf Schumacher and is a very average driver when all of his considerable on and off-track stupidity is weighed against him. In Champ Cars he was no more impressive than Villeneuve.

[nojvnof1 0]

I'm sure JV would sooner be the weakest world Champion then not one at all. Just to think he was the most succesful rookie in F1 history capturing pole in his first race. Went on to finish second in the points in his rookie year, and then won the world championship in his second year in the sport. He and his manager then went on to put all their energy to develop a new F1 team around them that is the Honda works team today. Not a bad accomplishment for such a w#nker

Heh, DC has 13 wins, JV has 11, RB has 9.

Imho, DC and RB are both better drivers than JV anyway.

I disagree. Look at the quality of their machinery over a respective number of years and the numbers lie.

DC has been in a race winning car at Williams (1994-95) and McLaren ('07-'03). He had the best car in 1998 and 1999 and the second best car in 2000 yet only managed 13 wins in his career pre-RBR.

Rubens Barrichello has been in the best car from 2000, excluding 2003 and 2005. He even failed to win in far superior machinery in 2001, whilst others in worse cars managed to win.

Jacques Villeneuve was only in the best car from 1996-1997. Out of 34 races he won 11 of them and the World Title. In two years, Jacques did more than both David and Rubens, although I give Rubens some leniency as he was the victim (willing at that as he signed the contract) of team orders and had Michael as a teammate.

Jacques got the job done and I see it still p**ses alot of people off, great!

just his (JV`s) achievements are very good in 96-97, but it was mostly Williams not JV ...

Frentzen had the same car, so Jacques had to to something right to get seven times the wins Heinz had, double the points and the World Title. JV had his best year in 2000, in that POS BAR. Sadly he wasted his prime at that team, if he had been in a top running team, I am almost certain you would all have differing views on him.

Oh absolutely! He was far better than Damon Hill, who of course proved much quicker than Jacques Villeneuve

[Senna 0]

As for Mika, he was nowhere prior to him receiving the best machinery, as JV was when he went to BAR, highlighting just how machinery is vital to the success of a driver.

He outqualified Ayrton Senna!

[YHR 0]

I disagree. Look at the quality of their machinery over a respective number of years and the numbers lie.

DC has been in a race winning car at Williams (1994-95) and McLaren ('07-'03). He had the best car in 1998 and 1999 and the second best car in 2000 yet only managed 13 wins in his career pre-RBR.

Rubens Barrichello has been in the best car from 2000, excluding 2003 and 2005. He even failed to win in far superior machinery in 2001, whilst others in worse cars managed to win.

Jacques Villeneuve was only in the best car from 1996-1997. Out of 34 races he won 11 of them and the World Title. In two years, Jacques did more than both David and Rubens, although I give Rubens some leniency as he was the victim (willing at that as he signed the contract) of team orders and had Michael as a teammate.

Jacques got the job done and I see it still p**ses alot of people off, great!

Very good observation and really says it like it is or was

JV had won the world Championship. He had done this in his second year. So here is a guy who won the Indy 500, CART series Champion and the F1 WDC by the time he was what,? 26. Not one to back away from life's challenges, he, Figures, Good grief what elses is there left to do in motorsport. So he decides to lend his service and stature to an upstart F1 team. They end up with Honda for power, and had not Dave Richards had it in for him I dare say He and Jenson would have both been better off racing together at Honda. TS for JV was a disaster for that team. One of the stupidest moves I have ever witnessed.

[Senna 0]

TS for JV was a disaster for that team. One of the stupidest moves I have ever witnessed.

[YHR 0]

Not sure if you are agreeing to this statement.

Even if you are not a fan of JV, he had infinitly more to offer the Team and JB then Sato did. (excluding the Honda works engine, which may or may not have been tied to Sato).

JV and JB together would have moved BAR a lot futher along then they are now, and probably would have saved JB from wanting to get away from Richards last year. Read between the lines. The only thing different at that team this year from last year is the team principle. That one change has made Button do a complete 180 on his feelings of BAR Honda. How bad was Richards.? Bad enough to make the rising star Jenson want to throw away the second best car on the grid, thats how bad.

[ButtonGod 0]

I hope Jacques gets to keep his drive with BMW as I just have a feeling that he has unfinished business with F1. He obviously will never win another WDC but I reckon he could still mix it with the front runners should he get a chance with a top team again.

Yes, he had the Renault but he never had a chance to settle into that team with just a few races. A year with Sauber has given him the opportunity to get to know his mechanics etc, and from what I have read, BMW are keeping the same staff on so it should benefit Jacques. Should he get confirmed that is...

[Senna 0]

Not sure if you are agreeing to this statement.

Even if you are not a fan of JV, he had infinitly more to offer the Team and JB then Sato did. (excluding the Honda works engine, which may or may not have been tied to Sato).

JV and JB together would have moved BAR a lot futher along then they are now, and probably would have saved JB from wanting to get away from Richards last year. Read between the lines. The only thing different at that team this year from last year is the team principle. That one change has made Button do a complete 180 on his feelings of BAR Honda. How bad was Richards.? Bad enough to make the rising star Jenson want to through away the second best car on the grid, thats how bad.

In 2003 JV was a good driver. Sato is a terrible driver in any year. A JB/JV driver line-up in 2004 would have been very productive.

[Max Mosley 2]

Not sure if you are agreeing to this statement.

Even if you are not a fan of JV, he had infinitly more to offer the Team and JB then Sato did. (excluding the Honda works engine, which may or may not have been tied to Sato).

We may think JV is past it but nothing compares to our disdain for Sato/Karty, if I may speak for He who knoweth all.

[bajo39 0]

We may think JV is past it but nothing compares to our disdain for Sato/Karty, if I may speak for He who knoweth all.

And Montoya.

[Senna 0]

And Montoya.

And Liuzzi.

[Max Mosley 2]

Quite, guys.

[YHR 0]

In 2003 JV was a good driver. Sato is a terrible driver in any year. A JB/JV driver line-up in 2004 would have been very productive.

I agree. JB would be better today, and JV would have had the opportunity to save face. IMHO and this is only my opinion, JV deserved better then having to drive for Sauber. I believe he had the skills and still does to some extent, to be a worthy second driver to the new kids on the block. That is backing up JB, KR,or FA. It think the fact that he was basically the ,very much younger, Massa's equal this year is an indication that given the right car, he still had some podium winning performances left in him.

My only hope is that the BMW team are able to be competive and JV can show he still has a couple of more years left in him.

[blueboots 0]

The cars colour the driver to such an extent that the discussion on driver achievements is almost trivial.

[kenneth 0]

I really don't know why there's a lot of people out there , that's hate JV , First he won everything in motorsport, second some says here that williams was great not JV , si Shumacer is nothing ferrari where great, c mon guys there's alot people here that started watching F1 yesterday , and talk alot and they don't know how to distiguish a wheel from a pedalbreak,

JV when he entered F1 he was the only hope to re birth that sport, after Senna death and he did it even the great Shumacer can't do that cos of he;s contracts etc....

i loved senna he's the best ever , then the other's are quite in the same level as a world champions even Shu is on the same level of others , cos he was really very luck in his glory days.

[YHR 0]

The cars colour the driver to such an extent that the discussion on driver achievements is almost trivial.

So true, and the one reason why you can only get a measure of a driver by his accomplishments compared to his teamate.

There are too many variables trying to compare guys on different teams. That is why I like the CART series. All guys a driving the same basic car, and you get the feeling the driver has the most input into his result.

[Shadow 0]

I really don't know why there's a lot of people out there , that's hate JV , First he won everything in motorsport, second some says here that williams was great not JV , si Shumacer is nothing ferrari where great, c mon guys there's alot people here that started watching F1 yesterday , and talk alot and they don't know how to distiguish a wheel from a pedalbreak,

JV when he entered F1 he was the only hope to re birth that sport, after Senna death and he did it even the great Shumacer can't do that cos of he;s contracts etc....

i loved senna he's the best ever , then the other's are quite in the same level as a world champions even Shu is on the same level of others , cos he was really very luck in his glory days.

that is very well put Kenneth kudos to you

[nojvnof1 0]

He outqualified Ayrton Senna!

once! Other teammates outqualified Senna on the rare occasion.

TS for JV was a disaster for that team. One of the stupidest moves I have ever witnessed.

I agree, the fact that they are establishing a new team just for Taku is testiment to my argument that this Honda is not the Honda of the Senna/Prost era.

I hope Jacques gets to keep his drive with BMW as I just have a feeling that he has unfinished business with F1. He obviously will never win another WDC but I reckon he could still mix it with the front runners should he get a chance with a top team again.

Yes, he had the Renault but he never had a chance to settle into that team with just a few races. A year with Sauber has given him the opportunity to get to know his mechanics etc, and from what I have read, BMW are keeping the same staff on so it should benefit Jacques. Should he get confirmed that is...

to ButtonGod. Well said.

On the topic of JV/JB @ BAR. I think JV would have run JB very very close, alot closer than Taku and no doubt would have scored more than the obligatory podium Taku got. It would have made for an interesting year on this board between the JB and JV fans thats for sure though

[funkejay 0]

Bourdais made an interesting comment recently when discussing why he re-signed with the Newman-Haas CART Team for '06.

[bourdais] said that, for a time, a 2006 ride with BMW looked like a distinct possibility. "But there was a problem with Villeneuve's contract," he lamented.

For the full story, click here

http://www.f1racing.net/en/news.php?newsID=102890

From what Bourdais seems to be implying, it sounds like JV's contract might be honored by BMW afterall. Maybe there is hope for JV fans yet.......

[blueboots 0]

So true, and the one reason why you can only get a measure of a driver by his accomplishments compared to his teamate.

There are too many variables trying to compare guys on different teams. That is why I like the CART series. All guys a driving the same basic car, and you get the feeling the driver has the most input into his result.

The only real comparison for a a driver his relative to his teammate. Everything else is pointess.

We have seen Trulli beat Ralf, who now is finally been shown for what he really is.

Kimi beat Montoya, who is almost Sato esque in his lack of judgement.

Alonso beat Fisichella, who is just not fast enough even given the right car.

Why do people think Michael only accepts sub-par Teammates? In order to keep his unjustified high reputation intact. But I think they (ferrari) made a mistake with Massa, who I think is quicker than a lot of people think.

Villeneuve might very well be slow, but the only way you can truly judge him is against Heidfeld (who is quick). Or a comparison between Michael and Massa.

[C.A.L. 0]

Massa will be at a dis-advantage against M.SCHum. no matter what level of support he will get from Ferrari.

Massa has shown that his tire wear is not the best and going into another team with different tires again will only put him two steps behind an equal teammate.

Ferrari will have alot more testing available to Massa to allow him a far better chance of getting up to speed with the 2006 Ferrari, but to get into the swing of working with the Team will take time as it did for Rubens or any new driver into a team. Massa also is weak on twisty tracks and M.SCHum will be ahead even more so as he will be a step up on the handling of the Ferrari on those tracks comparatively.

I would think that even the qualifing for next year will keep the top 4 teams drivers closer among themselves as the lower teams will be out of the way after the 1st two runs are worked out. Then you can have the final running teammates run light and heavy to skew comparsions the final results yet again.

J.V. VS Heidfeld will be interesting , Webber against Heidfeld showed that Webber is the qualifier type like Trulli ...how well they run the race showed Heidfeld abit stronger IMO. J.V. + Heidfeld will be starting out more equal than most teammates as much is changed on the team and new at the same time as BMW doubles the staff and gets with the running of a F1 team on their own.

V8 running...less driver aids another unknown.

[monza gorilla 1]

Bourdais made an interesting comment recently when discussing why he re-signed with the Newman-Haas CART Team for '06.

[bourdais] said that, for a time, a 2006 ride with BMW looked like a distinct possibility. "But there was a problem with Villeneuve's contract," he lamented.

For the full story, click here

http://www.f1racing.net/en/news.php?newsID=102890

From what Bourdais seems to be implying, it sounds like JV's contract might be honored by BMW afterall. Maybe there is hope for JV fans yet.......

Thanks for that, Jay. However, it also seems to imply that BMW were actively looking to offload JV in favour of another driver. Although I hope it is not so, what would JV's mindset be like if he ends up driving for a team who didn't want him there in the first place, but have been forced to keep him because of a watertight contract?

[narain fan 0]

Massa will be at a dis-advantage against M.SCHum. no matter what level of support he will get from Ferrari.

Massa has shown that his tire wear is not the best and going into another team with different tires again will only put him two steps behind an equal teammate.

.

i am not trying to imply that massa is not at a disadvantage at ferrari that will be mainly because of the difference in talent between the teammates albeit schumi being 37 year old . but he wont have the excuses you are suggesting.afterall last year sauber ran on bridgestone tyres and a ferrari engine and a chassis similar to 2003 ferrari! and and,he has spent one complete year at ferrari testing already

[funkejay 0]

Villeneuve might very well be slow, but the only way you can truly judge him is against Heidfeld (who is quick). Or a comparison between Michael and Massa.

To be fair to JV, after the half way mark in the season, he was able to keep relative pace with Massa, and considering the start to the season he had, to finish only 2 points down on Massa wasn't entirely bad.

Thanks for that, Jay. However, it also seems to imply that BMW were actively looking to offload JV in favour of another driver. Although I hope it is not so, what would JV's mindset be like if he ends up driving for a team who didn't want him there in the first place, but have been forced to keep him because of a watertight contract?

Good point, and we've seen that before haven't we? Think B.A.R '03........