Lewis Suffers In Spain.

[pabloh20 1]

Yup. I think this is very well-put.

I'm a bit confused. I was branded a bigot, vile, obscene, offensive, disappointing - yet Mike gets a far more measured response. Not that I mind. I like a heated debate as you know. I'll recap what I've said over and over again above to try to find out what was so offensive.

1. Either all forms of hurtful prejudice should be condemned, or none should.
   
2. That is not the case atm in society or on this forum. It's acceptable to call someone (especially a celebrity/driver) a bitch or faggot, but not a nigger.
   
3. Ethnic minorities sometimes exacerbate their own problems.
   
4. Ethnic minorities often find offense where none was intended.
   

I don't believe I ever said that ugly people or fat people or women or gays or disabled people etc suffered precisely as much as, or more than, black people or Jews. In fact I agreed with Meanioni that it was futile and petty to try to compare different kinds of suffering. However, I feel that you and Fed Up seem determined to prove that you suffered more than women, gays etc. All I ever said was that many people suffer for different reasons - and I don't understand why the response we get to racist suffering is so different to the response we get for homophobic or sexist suffering, for example.

Yes it's a good example, and it's interesting to learn about your background. All I would say is that there are many different kinds of points of view, not just different points of view due to race. People who have suffered psychological abuse for being obese might find some jokes we all make totally unacceptable and very hurtful, for example.

Hmmmmm. The fact that you mentioned it, suggests you do mind, Muzza

I think it was possibly the perceived indignance or perceived tone in your replies, rightly or wrongly.

[pabloh20 1]

Murray, you're ahead of your time. Hopefully, at some point of time, racism will be something we can joke over. Like sex and prudery, sex today is funny, the easiest thing to make jokes about.

Your views are perhaps skewed by the environment you're in - academic environments are different, due to dare I say a combination of a greater than average intelligence and equally importantly, because people are more educated and informed. You can't be racist in a university in the western university, it would take a monumental level of stupidity to ignore the evidence all around, seeing highly intelligent people of every colour around you. And monumentally stupid people don't hang around in universities. I spend most of my time in a similar environment. If someone made a racist remark i nthe university, I'd laugh it off. It would just about always be a joke. I've had a lecturer make racist jokes about me in class, that was funny, everyone found it funny. I couldn't imagine finding it anything but funny, because I can't imagine someone like that acting in a racist manner.

The outside world's different. You can't laugh it off. Which is why, outside the comfort of your cosy surroundings, racism isn't that funny yet, because it's too real.

You're bringing up unrelated but possibly equally important issues with what you say about eating disorders etc. As an example, women are, especially by men always exclusively judged by their looks, and treated on that basis. You'll notice that on the forum, people's obsession with commenting on the looks of female members - at least one member has picked up on the fact and mentioned it - that if you're female and you don't get comments on your looks, you're not 'pretty', and your post get treated differently. And that's stupid text remarks by a person who you see as a silly little picture, imagine the magnitude of the problem in real life.

There's an unrelated fact about racism, but a possibly relevant one - it is time to look at racism beyond the myopic white vs rest view - it exists in every community, and it should be tackled the same way for all.

You make some good points, Cav, apart from the greater than average intelligence, more educated and informed in universities - they're full of students, for crying out loud!

After reading your post, though, I think it reinforces the view that much of what we 'see' is down to our own perception. Yes, I know I am stating the obvious, but let me just pick up on a point you raised.

Now, I don't think that the female members in this forum get treated any differently due to their appearance. Ok, I don't read all posts on here, but I read a fair few. I have no idea if my opinion is right or wrong, but my opinion is obviously formed by my own perception. I don't think* I treat the female members any differently because of their looks, so subconsciously I guess I never look for that distinction in others. However, I am also (possibly conversely?) of the opinion that there is nothing wrong with telling a girl/woman that they look good, beautiful, etc, because, at the end of the day, it's only a small part of the whole personality. Again, that's probably due my own experiences of working in a place for 10yrs where the woman outnumbered the men by about 10-1, it gives you a somewhat different perspective! Equally, if a girl/woman on here hasn't been commented on her looks, I would see that as nobody has commented on her looks, not that she's not pretty. I mean, if I commented on another person's post, be it male or female, by saying that it was really intelligent, or that was really funny, it doesn't automatically follow that I am saying that everybody else is not funny or intelligent, to give an extreme example.

Not sure if I have explained it properly, but I know what I mean, anyway!

* - actually I am fairly certain I don't, but maybe other's perception is that I do?

[pabloh20 1]

Something else to throw into the hat;

White people are at the top of the food chain so the speak. The world is a reflection of a white man's view on what is right, wrong etc - 99.99% of the way we live is according to laws/rules laid down by the white man.

Now if you accept that different races think differently and are at different stages of evolution how can we all be expected to react in a uniform manner in all circumstances.

I dont have the time to continue this, but I will return to expand on this view.

This is another post that reinforces the perceptions view. You see, I just don't think of the world like that. I am not saying that you are wrong, or indeed that I am right, or that I can't understand your point of view, but it's honestly just not something that enters my head when thinking of laws/rules that we live by. I also have no idea if that's a good trait or a bad trait on my behalf.

[Ash1 0]

IQ is great but emotional intelligence is by far greater. And the latter addresses issues like the ones mentioned here, not plain intelligence. To be wise is far better than to be intelligent and true wisdom begins with the reverence of God. We so often label ourselves stupid and ignorant by not conforming to this basic rule. A beautiful book of mine says "a fool says in his heart that there is no God".

I am well aware that there are many here that do not believe in God. And that there are many here that have their faith in evolution. Now, believe it or not, racism has its roots in evolution. And there are many here that believe that certain races are more evolved than others. So we must first take the plank out of our own eye before taking the speckle out of our Spanish brothers

[pabloh20 1]

IQ is great but emotional intelligence is by far greater. And the latter addresses issues like the ones mentioned here, not plain intelligence. To be wise is far better than to be intelligent and true wisdom begins with the reverence of God. We so often label ourselves stupid and ignorant by not conforming to this basic rule. A beautiful book of mine says "a fool says in his heart that there is no God".

I am well aware that there are many here that do not believe in God. And that there are many here that have their faith in evolution. Now, believe it or not, racism has its roots in evolution. And there are many here that believe that certain races are more evolved than others. So we must first take the plank out of our own eye before taking the speckle out of our Spanish brothers

[Quiet One 15]

Must...contain...fury...

(No, not because of your post, Paul)

[Kay 0]

IQ is great but emotional intelligence is by far greater. And the latter addresses issues like the ones mentioned here, not plain intelligence. To be wise is far better than to be intelligent and true wisdom begins with the reverence of God. We so often label ourselves stupid and ignorant by not conforming to this basic rule. A beautiful book of mine says "a fool says in his heart that there is no God".

I am well aware that there are many here that do not believe in God. And that there are many here that have their faith in evolution. Now, believe it or not, racism has its roots in evolution. And there are many here that believe that certain races are more evolved than others. So we must first take the plank out of our own eye before taking the speckle out of our Spanish brothers' eye.

Lewis is a proven two-face a-hole. He has come out and spoken very contradictory and inconstently about Fernando. And my guess is that that is feuding the 'racism' row. Hamilton has dug his own grave and his reputation now, is engraved in stone.

Personally, I can't stand the guy. But I don't want him to leave the sport. Kimi must thrash him first.

What a load of rubbish. This situation has been created more by the media then by Hamilton or Fernando and I'm sure by now most people know I'm nowhere near Hamilton's biggest fan.

The only way I could see Hamilton feuding a racism row is to actually talk about the subject at hand and accuse individuals of being racist and he has not done that, he's also earnt some of my respect by not making comments which could be inferred to mean that's why a lot of people don't like him after this event. James Allen (I believe it was him) made comments not long ago that a factor in people disliking Hamilton was race, those are the types of comments which are uncalled for, not what Hamilton has said on the subject matter. Half of the feud between Hamilton and Alonso was made up or exaggerated by the press, because both the British and the Spanish had a vested interest in doing so.

Your post discriminates itself against many and that those who believe in God are somehow better than those that don't. I find it somehow ironic that you can say that, yet Jesus has been portrayed as a white man in the west. No group is above any other.

As for emotional intelligence, I have almost none, but I have a high IQ yet I see neither as vitally important and having one more than the other will not make you superior to those that don't. Your post is full of hypocrisy.

[LabradoRacer 2]

I'm racist. The reason being the sops doled out to "backward castes" in India. I started hating them in 1995, when I discovered what quota policy means. However, my hate is not the "abuse 'em, kill 'em" type. It's a sort of "keep at arm's length" thing. To those in western countries, an easy analogy is coloured people benefiting from quotas at the expense of merit. No, I don't have a secret desire to be a white man. The reason I used this analogy is the "upper castes" did to "lower castes" what the white people did to blacks/coloreds. Racism is permanent, at least in India.

I once remember having read what Bruno Metsu, ex-coach of the Senegal football team, said. He said, "I'm a black man in white skin." There was no adverse reaction to it. But I guarantee you that if a coloured man had said "I'm a white man in black/brown skin" he'd be pilloried for "placing whites on a pedestal & having an inferiority complex". Same is the case if a coloured guy says he wants to bed a Caucasian woman. Were it to be bedding a non-Caucasian , not a mickey out of anyone. By the way, in India skin-whitening creams do roaring business. I didn't have the heart to tell my dark-skinned pal not to use that s##t.

Also, I find that women of different races turn me on at different levels. I think it's normal, just biological. This isn't racist. What's between the legs knows no racism.

Since we're on this topic, 2 movies worth watching :

American History X

To Kill A Mocking Bird

[Quiet One 15]

Well, I recognize my defeat.

Have fun, guys.

[pumpdoc 2]

Just an observation people, why muck up the works by talking about race etc. No one wins, and hard feelings abound. This is an international forum with many diverse people and thoughts and perspectives. Just my .02 worth..............

[pabloh20 1]

Well, I recognize my defeat.

Have fun, guys.

In your face LOSER !!!!!!!!!!

No................wait a minute.................

Let me just re-read the thread..................

[pabloh20 1]

Just an observation people, why muck up the works by talking about race etc. No one wins, and hard feelings abound. This is an international forum with many diverse people and thoughts and perspectives. Just my .02 worth..............

That's just typical of you, Bruce, are we only worth 2 cents you cheapskate ??

You are quite correct, except I hope no hard feelings are abounded. We should know each other well enough not to take it to heart, I think.

[Max Mosley 2]

Murray, you're ahead of your time.

Talk about a back-handed compliment.

Your views are perhaps skewed by the environment you're in - academic environments are different, due to dare I say a combination of a greater than average intelligence and equally importantly, because people are more educated and informed. You can't be racist in a university in the western university, it would take a monumental level of stupidity to ignore the evidence all around, seeing highly intelligent people of every colour around you. And monumentally stupid people don't hang around in universities. I spend most of my time in a similar environment. If someone made a racist remark i nthe university, I'd laugh it off. It would just about always be a joke. I've had a lecturer make racist jokes about me in class, that was funny, everyone found it funny. I couldn't imagine finding it anything but funny, because I can't imagine someone like that acting in a racist manner.

Yeah. I'm impressed you can laugh about it. Like anyone, my background will affect my perspective. In my experience at uni the most prevalent prejudice now is homophobia (though I appreciate the outside world might well be different). Not in a hang 'em and flog 'em way, but people are uncomfortable even being around gays. I've had close friends seriously say "greek mythology is great, apart from all that homosexuality". Gay people showing affection in public is really out of the question. I once made a joke about homosexuality to my brother and he didn't speak to me for 2 weeks, and even then I had to apologise profusely. My own family (all extremely well-educated and clever) change the channel as soon as gay love rears its head on TV, which only ever happens in a way that isn't sexually charged. As you know perfectly well, you only have to ask to find out how hard coming out can be even in a university.

The outside world's different. You can't laugh it off. Which is why, outside the comfort of your cosy surroundings, racism isn't that funny yet, because it's too real.

You're bringing up unrelated but possibly equally important issues with what you say about eating disorders etc. As an example, women are, especially by men always exclusively judged by their looks, and treated on that basis. You'll notice that on the forum, people's obsession with commenting on the looks of female members - at least one member has picked up on the fact and mentioned it - that if you're female and you don't get comments on your looks, you're not 'pretty', and your post get treated differently. And that's stupid text remarks by a person who you see as a silly little picture, imagine the magnitude of the problem in real life.

I can understand racist jokes not being funny in the real world, and I would be the first to object if I felt someone was being genuinely prejudiced, whether in university or the real world. As you probably know, I do tend to be in favour of totally free speech amongst adults no matter how offensive it is. But really in this thread I've been trying to avoid that. Instead I wanted to point out the sorts of things you said above. There are many hurtful prejudices in the world, and I don't think society (or this forum) has a fair approach to them. The slightest hint of a racist joke is enough for you to lose your job, but you can make sexist or homophobic comments with relative impunity. Likewise there are many hurtful comments the (mostly) men make on here, and even after it's explained to them, they can't seem to grasp that they might be being insensitive and hurtful.

There's an unrelated fact about racism, but a possibly relevant one - it is time to look at racism beyond the myopic white vs rest view - it exists in every community, and it should be tackled the same way for all.

Agreed.

Something else to throw into the hat;

White people are at the top of the food chain so the speak. The world is a reflection of a white man's view on what is right, wrong etc - 99.99% of the way we live is according to laws/rules laid down by the white man.

Now if you accept that different races think differently and are at different stages of evolution how can we all be expected to react in a uniform manner in all circumstances.

I dont have the time to continue this, but I will return to expand on this view.

I hope you do because I'm slightly shocked at what you're saying. Not about the white man bit, but the "different stages of evolution" bit. Imho different races do, on average, sometimes have different views. But that is mainly because (imho) they have different experiences on average, not because races have evolved differently.

Therefore inter-race discussions about black people's situation will benefit everyone, since we can all learn from each other, and change the way we all think.

Hmmmmm. The fact that you mentioned it, suggests you do mind, Muzza

I think it was possibly the perceived indignance or perceived tone in your replies, rightly or wrongly.

It was more an observation than a complaint. And I am a little indignant about this debate, and I'll tell you why.

You and Andres are very kind men, and I think you think I'm being insensitive or cruel, given that your kind natures incline you to be sympathetic to ethnic minorities, who do definitely deserve sympathy for the way they are treated sometimes. But kindness alone will get us nowhere. It's not good enough to just be kind - you have to do your best to be right too, and that involves facing up to unpleasant facts. A loving mother who smothers her kids and doesn't let them grow up properly, can't say it's all OK because she only "cared too much". Men in Iran saying women can't drive cars because it's dangerous might genuinely care about their women, but it doesn't mean their views are OK by me. And this is how I see the issue at hand.

There are many people who are discriminated against, not just black people. Yet society (eg this forum) doesn't afford the same consideration to gays, women, disabled people, people with many medical conditions, ugly/fat people etc. Insults or otherwise insensitive comments about those issues are tolerated by the vast majority here and in society in general. So that does make me a bit indignant. Just to give you yet another example, Radio 2 freely played (before the watershed) the famous Progues' song Fairytale uncut this Christmas, despite it containing the word fa**ot used as an insult. How many rap songs are played by the BBC containing the word ni**er, even when used as a term of endearment between rappers?

We so often label ourselves stupid and ignorant

Yup.

To Kill A Mocking Bird

Yeah I never studied it in school alas, but I've seen a theatre show of it. Very good indeed.

[BradSpeedMan 6]

Your post discriminates itself against many and that those who believe in God are somehow better than those that don't. I find it somehow ironic that you can say that, yet Jesus has been portrayed as a white man in the west. No group is above any other.

As for emotional intelligence, I have almost none, but I have a high IQ yet I see neither as vitally important and having one more than the other will not make you superior to those that don't. Your post is full of hypocrisy.

Dearest Kay, when I read his post I don't think thats what he intended. He was just stating a basic fact, it does'nt mean we(believers) perceive ourselves better... Racism has it roots from evolution as so in the same way Organised Christian Religion has it roots from evil men twisting the bible to suit their needs... you take some and give some...

[Max Mosley 2]

Brad, they might say that in creationist books but it's totally untrue. Prejudice against Jews and Black people is recorded in Shakespeare's plays (though the great man almost certainly did not hold those views himself). Shakespeare died in 1616. Charles Darwin wasn't born until 1809! Even the slave trade was in full swing before Darwin was born. You don't need evolution to think that you're better than someone else, nor does evolution imply that we can't all be God's children.

[dribbler 6]

I find it genuinely pleasurable to be an impartial observer, knowing that the friendship that exists between the participants allows this sort of sensible and informed debate to flourish and bloom like the scent of spring time that is fast descending upon British soil. We are approaching a delicious balance of hilarity, humility, intelligence and ignorance on this website that could be destroyed by the addition or loss of any component part, at any time. Reminds me of one of Mrs dribs' perfect chilli's that she never wrote down the recipe for. Or a bit like Hendrix, Monterey '67. Queen, Live Aid '85. Cherish the moment when you know you are in the prescence of perfection.

Stuff like that. Sorry, do continue.

edited in pursuit of perfection.

[Quiet One 15]

Menudo '89

[pabloh20 1]

Talk about a back-handed compliment.

Yeah. I'm impressed you can laugh about it. Like anyone, my background will affect my perspective. In my experience at uni the most prevalent prejudice now is homophobia (though I appreciate the outside world might well be different). Not in a hang 'em and flog 'em way, but people are uncomfortable even being around gays. I've had close friends seriously say "greek mythology is great, apart from all that homosexuality". Gay people showing affection in public is really out of the question. I once made a joke about homosexuality to my brother and he didn't speak to me for 2 weeks, and even then I had to apologise profusely. My own family (all extremely well-educated and clever) change the channel as soon as gay love rears its head on TV, which only ever happens in a way that isn't sexually charged. As you know perfectly well, you only have to ask to find out how hard coming out can be even in a university.

I can understand racist jokes not being funny in the real world, and I would be the first to object if I felt someone was being genuinely prejudiced, whether in university or the real world. As you probably know, I do tend to be in favour of totally free speech amongst adults no matter how offensive it is. But really in this thread I've been trying to avoid that. Instead I wanted to point out the sorts of things you said above. There are many hurtful prejudices in the world, and I don't think society (or this forum) has a fair approach to them. The slightest hint of a racist joke is enough for you to lose your job, but you can make sexist or homophobic comments with relative impunity. Likewise there are many hurtful comments the (mostly) men make on here, and even after it's explained to them, they can't seem to grasp that they might be being insensitive and hurtful.

Agreed.

I hope you do because I'm slightly shocked at what you're saying. Not about the white man bit, but the "different stages of evolution" bit. Imho different races do, on average, sometimes have different views. But that is mainly because (imho) they have different experiences on average, not because races have evolved differently.

Therefore inter-race discussions about black people's situation will benefit everyone, since we can all learn from each other, and change the way we all think.

It was more an observation than a complaint. And I am a little indignant about this debate, and I'll tell you why.

You and Andres are very kind men, and I think you think I'm being insensitive or cruel, given that your kind natures incline you to be sympathetic to ethnic minorities, who do definitely deserve sympathy for the way they are treated sometimes. But kindness alone will get us nowhere. It's not good enough to just be kind - you have to do your best to be right too, and that involves facing up to unpleasant facts. A loving mother who smothers her kids and doesn't let them grow up properly, can't say it's all OK because she only "cared too much". Men in Iran saying women can't drive cars because it's dangerous might genuinely care about their women, but it doesn't mean their views are OK by me. And this is how I see the issue at hand.

There are many people who are discriminated against, not just black people. Yet society (eg this forum) doesn't afford the same consideration to gays, women, disabled people, people with many medical conditions, ugly/fat people etc. Insults or otherwise insensitive comments about those issues are tolerated by the vast majority here and in society in general. So that does make me a bit indignant. Just to give you yet another example, Radio 2 freely played (before the watershed) the famous Progues' song Fairytale uncut this Christmas, despite it containing the word fa**ot used as an insult. How many rap songs are played by the BBC containing the word ni**er, even when used as a term of endearment between rappers?

Yup.

Yeah I never studied it in school alas, but I've seen a theatre show of it. Very good indeed.

Well, I am quite surprised about the prevalent prejudice in your uni, Muzza, but I suppose there was some inkling of it in your previous posts. Also very surprised about your family too, just goes to show you.

I have not responded to any of your previous posts (I don't think) as I really wanted to see where you ended up, to be honest. So, no I don't think your cruel at all. I think I know you better than that, but let's just say that your posts in this thread have not been as articulate as I am used to from you - don't take that as an insult, more of a backhanded compliment as to the standard of your normal posts

You are crediting Andres and I with a naivete I am fairly certain we don't have. Sensitivity, yes I would probably agree with that, certainly from my perspective, anyway. The phrase 'teaching your granny how to suck eggs' springs to mind, though as, I am well aware that kindness isn't the solution to the problem, I am life-experienced enough to realise that. Even as a man of my tender years I remember a time before political correctness and then I have seen the pendulum swing way too far to the other side, but I am confident it will find it's balance in the end.

We all judge things from our own life experiences, it's pretty much all we can do. You mention obesity, ugliness, etc and not once have you mentioned the fact that scousers get discriminated against on here. Robbing scousers, count your hub caps, etc, etc. Now, me being the kind forgiving soul that I am, don't let things like that bother me, though sometimes I cry when I leave this forum. However, if you said something like that to my Mum she'd give you a severe beating and trust me, anything goes - table legs have been known to be used! Ok, ok, I know I am being silly, but my point is that we all have something that gets our back up - the prevalent homophobia in your uni gets yours up and seriously my Mum hates the robbing scousers moniker and thinks scousers are portrayed like that in every tv program.

And now I have completely lost my train of thought as I am laughing to myself remembering my brother and I getting a whacking with a table leg. Long story!

I'll come back to this later...............

[dribbler 6]

My mother hobbled as she hit me with her hard heeled slipper; she was unbalanced. I have an image of spilled dinner in a thieving scouser household as a mother beats her children and forgets the necessity of four legged balance to preserve the integrity of the meal she cooked for her kids. Either that or she bought the leg as a child beating device at the local 'scouser child disciplinary shop' (prevalent in 1970's Liverpool) The children look back on those years fondly and appreciate the dilemma their mother faced as she tried to hand out discipline and love in equal measure. They decide, i suspect, that she did a great job.

As i think of my harassed hobbling mother and look at her now and the way she treats me with patience, love and respect, i reach the same conclusion.

Bartender............

[pabloh20 1]

My mother hobbled as she hit me with her hard heeled slipper; she was unbalanced. I have an image of spilled dinner in a thieving scouser household as a mother beats her children and forgets the necessity of four legged balance to preserve the integrity of the meal she cooked for her kids. Either that or she bought the leg as a child beating device at the local 'scouser child disciplinary shop' (prevalent in 1970's Liverpool) The children look back on those years fondly and appreciate the dilemma their mother faced as she tried to hand out discipline and love in equal measure. They decide, i suspect, that she did a great job.

As i think of my harassed hobbling mother and look at her now and the way she treats me with patience, love and respect, i reach the same conclusion.

Bartender............

Yes she did. It's also why we are so tough up here and you lot are southern softies, as the advert used to go.

[Grabthaw the Hammerslayer 4]

not once have you mentioned the fact that scousers get discriminated against on here

Well there's discrimination and then some things are fair game I mean, you are responsible for Cilla Black

Only Joking Actually I have never been to your fair city - one of the few in this green and pleasant land I have not visited. Must go sometime.

and you lot are southern softies

I am indeed one of them softies, worse than that I was born in the West Country - cue lots of "ooh arrr!" jokes

[Grabthaw the Hammerslayer 4]

In my experience at uni the most prevalent prejudice now is homophobia (though I appreciate the outside world might well be different).

Interesting as I work in a University and homophobia is non-existent - in fact if you did a survey you'd probably find heterosexuals are the minority group.

[pabloh20 1]

Well there's discrimination and then some things are fair game I mean, you are responsible for Cilla Black

Only Joking Actually I have never been to your fair city - one of the few in this green and pleasant land I have not visited. Must go sometime.

I am indeed one of them softies, worse than that I was born in the West Country - cue lots of "ooh arrr!" jokes

A good point, well made, Sir.

Come on, though, surely the Beatles outweigh most evils ?

[Fed up 0]

Lol at robbing scousers being cited as a form of discrimination

Anyway, this is going to be my last post on this issue as like Andres (I presume) I accept that it is nigh on impossible to change people's opinions especially on issues as divisive as race. Some of the arguments used are so trivial that it is obvious that the authors have very little knowledge of the issue at hand.

My experience of racism spanned the mid eighties when as a pupil at a boarding school on the Isle of wight I would often be chased around the town centre by thugs hell bent on beating me up just because I was black. The easiest solution was to stay within the safe confines of the school. As a youngster my reality was to live in constant fear by skin heads, punks and other such weirdos. People would hurl abuse at you for no reason and monkey chants was less threatening than being told to get back to the jungle blah blah. That was life at the time and one learned to live with it.

Gradually over the years attitudes have softened somewhat. For what it's worth PC has made life a lot easier for ethnic minorities. The death of Steven Lawrence and other initiatives like kick racism out of football have captured the collective consciousness and further moved 'our' society to one of tolerance. Overt racism is now seen as socially unacceptable where once it was seen as a laugh.

I'd almost forgot about overt racism until I traveled the world. I've been to Auschwitz, Marrakech, Seychelles, Maldives, Australia, New Zealand, South- East Asia, Hong Kong, most of Spain, 95% of Italy, parts of Eastern Europe. Where a posh accent and a nice suit would open doors in London, the same is not true in other parts of the world. A lot of Black Americans are stunned at their treatment when they traverse western Europe.

I was herded and locked up in Thailand just because I was black. They refused to believe that I was a British National and locked me up as an Alien. All my education and money was useless in that situation as my only currency was my skin colour and that was worth nothing to them.

What people fail to realise is that it is not the name calling that offends. Anti Semitic jokes are just that, but it also resonates with the suffering of millions of people. When you joke about it you are showing a lack of respect & compassion for those that died or lost loved ones during that period. It is the same with monkey chants or calling a black person the N word - The images that it conjures is one of suffering and pain over many many years previous - If black people call each other the N word there is no negative connotation, however when a white person uses the same N word in conjures up images that were clearly depicted in that film American History X - Deep wounds take a long time to heal.

My final take on this issue.

[Max Mosley 2]

It's interesting to hear more about you Fed Up. You're quite an elusive figure. Sorry to hear about the violent incidents you mention.

I have not responded to any of your previous posts (I don't think) as I really wanted to see where you ended up, to be honest. So, no I don't think your cruel at all. I think I know you better than that, but let's just say that your posts in this thread have not been as articulate as I am used to from you - don't take that as an insult, more of a backhanded compliment as to the standard of your normal posts

I think if I haven't been articulate it's because I didn't realise quite how deeply ingrained the attitudes to racism are. In a way I just think the problem is worse than I imagined.

We all judge things from our own life experiences, it's pretty much all we can do. You mention obesity, ugliness, etc and not once have you mentioned the fact that scousers get discriminated against on here. Robbing scousers, count your hub caps, etc, etc. Now, me being the kind forgiving soul that I am, don't let things like that bother me, though sometimes I cry when I leave this forum. However, if you said something like that to my Mum she'd give you a severe beating and trust me, anything goes - table legs have been known to be used! Ok, ok, I know I am being silly, but my point is that we all have something that gets our back up - the prevalent homophobia in your uni gets yours up and seriously my Mum hates the robbing scousers moniker and thinks scousers are portrayed like that in every tv program.

Sure! But it's not that it just gets my back up. I think homophobia is a really serious problem by any objective standards. And I don't think many other posters appreciate the gravity of it, so I dug up some statistics.

According to the Guardian there were at least 58 racially motivated murders in the last 10 years, whereas according to the Independent there were at least 181 homophobic killings in a 10 year period. Both figures are no doubt underestimates, but it shows that the level of abuse suffered by each community is probably comparable. A fuller set of research on homophobia is given on this website. There you can see a huge number of different stats: in different surveys between 22% and 50% of gays claim to have been physically attacked for their sexuality - 14% claim to have been attacked with weapons, and about 17% to have been hospitalised. The figures for most kinds of homophobic abuse are comparable to racist abuse. And the prejudice has a pretty hurtful history too - all gay sex was illegal and very often punished by incarceration until 1967 in England (1980 in Scotland). But legal discrimination continued unabated by other means: 20000 convictions were issued for crimes like buggery which almost uniquely affect gay men in the 1980s alone, and as recently as 2003 someone was jailed in Britain for sex acts that if performed with a woman would have been legal.

This is not to say that racism is not a serious problem. But there are other forms of discrimination that are arguably just as serious, but that don't receive the same level of attention or concern from society.

Interesting as I work in a University and homophobia is non-existent - in fact if you did a survey you'd probably find heterosexuals are the minority group.

That's interesting and very different to my experience. Tbh I'd be surprised if LGBT people in your university said homophobia hadn't affected them there, but obviously most people in most universities won't be homophobic, just like most won't be racist as Cav points out.