Lewis Suffers In Spain.

[pumpdoc 2]

That's just typical of you, Bruce, are we only worth 2 cents you cheapskate ??

This comeing from a scouser to a Ameracanski?

[dribbler 6]

Yes she did. It's also why we are so tough up here and you lot are southern softies, as the advert used to go.

Yeah, but you only drink milk because Ian Rush used to.

[dribbler 6]

I am indeed one of them softies, worse than that I was born in the West Country - cue lots of "ooh arrr!" jokes

West country? Oh dear. So you say stuff like "I would like you to meet my sister, my auntie and my wife........her name is Clare."

[Kay 0]

I am indeed one of them softies, worse than that I was born in the West Country - cue lots of "ooh arrr!" jokes

Best place to be born.

[Karta 0]

I think most people are too touchy on this subject, i wonder if any of you have read what one participant was said to answer (did not seem to be among last posts at least, did not scroll more):

http://f1-racing.com/fullstory/view/244247...o_fan_protests/

[pabloh20 1]

It's interesting to hear more about you Fed Up. You're quite an elusive figure. Sorry to hear about the violent incidents you mention.

I think if I haven't been articulate it's because I didn't realise quite how deeply ingrained the attitudes to racism are. In a way I just think the problem is worse than I imagined.

Sure! But it's not that it just gets my back up. I think homophobia is a really serious problem by any objective standards. And I don't think many other posters appreciate the gravity of it, so I dug up some statistics.

According to the Guardian there were at least 58 racially motivated murders in the last 10 years, whereas according to the Independent there were at least 181 homophobic killings in a 10 year period. Both figures are no doubt underestimates, but it shows that the level of abuse suffered by each community is probably comparable. A fuller set of research on homophobia is given on this website. There you can see a huge number of different stats: in different surveys between 22% and 50% of gays claim to have been physically attacked for their sexuality - 14% claim to have been attacked with weapons, and about 17% to have been hospitalised. The figures for most kinds of homophobic abuse are comparable to racist abuse. And the prejudice has a pretty hurtful history too - all gay sex was illegal and very often punished by incarceration until 1967 in England (1980 in Scotland). But legal discrimination continued unabated by other means: 20000 convictions were issued for crimes like buggery which almost uniquely affect gay men in the 1980s alone, and as recently as 2003 someone was jailed in Britain for sex acts that if performed with a woman would have been legal.

This is not to say that racism is not a serious problem. But there are other forms of discrimination that are arguably just as serious, but that don't receive the same level of attention or concern from society.

That's interesting and very different to my experience. Tbh I'd be surprised if LGBT people in your university said homophobia hadn't affected them there, but obviously most people in most universities won't be homophobic, just like most won't be racist as Cav points out.

Ok, I'll keep it short because I think this has been flogged to death

Yes, they are all valid problems, Muzza, and there are many more - child abuse, etc, etc. Hell, I can't even stand cruelty to animals either! However, people of ethnic minorities could potentially suffer one or all those problems you mention and racism as well.

[pabloh20 1]

This comeing from a scouser to a Ameracanski?

The difference is, Bruce, I'd have robbed the 2 cents worth to give it back

Yeah, but you only drink milk because Ian Rush used to.

I can't think of any other good reason to drink milk, though

At least we drink it in glasses (oh ok paper cups, but that's not relevant) rather than straight from the source under some false pretence of 'it tastes better, honest!'

West country? Oh dear. So you say stuff like "I would like you to meet my sister, my auntie and my wife........her name is Clare."

[Max Mosley 2]

Ok, I'll keep it short because I think this has been flogged to death

Yes, they are all valid problems, Muzza, and there are many more - child abuse, etc, etc. Hell, I can't even stand cruelty to animals either! However, people of ethnic minorities could potentially suffer one or all those problems you mention and racism as well.

OK, I'll give up too now. But everyone's attitudes make me a little sad and frustrated. PC-ness stops people looking objectively at the issues - it's just indoctrination imho. I think homophobia and racism are quite comparable problems, and it's very wrong that society understands and respects one problem so much more than the other.

EDIT: At least I've learned a few things about society in this discussion, even if they do make me a little sad.

[dribbler 6]

At least we drink it in glasses (oh ok paper cups, but that's not relevant) rather than straight from the source under some false pretence of 'it tastes better, honest!'

I wouldn't drink it any udder way. Reminds me of a girl i once knew; lactating Laura we called her, kept tissue in her bra. I think she was form the west country.

[Fed up 0]

I think homophobia is a really serious problem by any objective standards. And I don't think many other posters appreciate the gravity of it, so I dug up some statistics.

According to the Guardian there were at least 58 racially motivated murders in the last 10 years, whereas according to the Independent there were at least 181 homophobic killings in a 10 year period. Both figures are no doubt underestimates, but it shows that the level of abuse suffered by each community is probably comparable. A fuller set of research on homophobia is given on this website. There you can see a huge number of different stats: in different surveys between 22% and 50% of gays claim to have been physically attacked for their sexuality - 14% claim to have been attacked with weapons, and about 17% to have been hospitalised. The figures for most kinds of homophobic abuse are comparable to racist abuse. And the prejudice has a pretty hurtful history too - all gay sex was illegal and very often punished by incarceration until 1967 in England (1980 in Scotland). But legal discrimination continued unabated by other means: 20000 convictions were issued for crimes like buggery which almost uniquely affect gay men in the 1980s alone, and as recently as 2003 someone was jailed in Britain for sex acts that if performed with a woman would have been legal.

This is not to say that racism is not a serious problem. But there are other forms of discrimination that are arguably just as serious, but that don't receive the same level of attention or concern from society.

I couldn't resist a quick return after reading this post.

Forgive me Murray if I am way off the mark here, but I get the impression that you are either gay or have issues surrounding homophobia - My assumption is based on my subjective belief that most heterosexual men wouldn't concern themselves with issues relating to homosexuals unless one is of that persuasion or has a loved one (sibling/friend etc) that is gay.

This is of course besides the point and is neither here nor there in relation to this debate.

However, if you flip the argument on its side and imagine that Lewis was a white gay male. How would you react if a sizeable section of a crowd jeered at him and called him all manner of gay names publicly - what would your opinion be if overt homophobia was directed his way - It is fair to assume from your post above that you would be appalled if this were to happen - Swap the gay male with a black male and racist chants with homophobic rhetoric and you may see my point. They are both discrimination of some form and equally abhorrent.

Discrimination takes all forms. This discussion has only started because of what happened in Spain. If it had been somewhere else and the target had been a gay man, a jewish man, a fat woman etc etc. The reaction would have been similar if the target had a sympathetic following. Lewis has, hence the uproar.

I'm ducking out again and please forgive me, Murray, if the above has offended you. I just found the passion with which you argue the case against homophobia as an emotional reaction. I have previously argued that the truth can only be accurately told form personal experience. Perhaps this is your truth

[Max Mosley 2]

Don't worry Fed Up, I'm not offended at all! But I'm honestly not gay. Sometimes I wonder if it would be possible for me to be attracted to men but it's never really happened.

Fwiw I don't think homophobic or sexist etc abuse would generate the same level of condemnation, but I don't want to flog a dead horse here.

(EDIT: I do actually have a lesbian cousin, but that was so far from my mind it took me several minutes to think of her. I don't think that has anything to do with my reaction. Part of my ardency here is just to argue a point, and part of it comes from listening to rappers abusing everyone so much that eventually I start to become hypersensitive to somethings myself perhaps.)

[goferrarigo 0]

How this topic turned from lewis, to racism worldwide and finally Graham defending himself from being called gay...

btw to go back to topic, the guy in the center apologised...:

I' am not a racist, says Spanish F1 fan who 'blacked-up' for Hamilton

One of the Spanish Formula One fans who caused a diplomatic storm by "blacking up" to hurl insults at the British driver Lewis Hamilton has insisted: "I am not a racist."

Toni Calderon was one of four fans who wore dark curly wigs, black make-up and T-shirts with the words "Hamilton's family" at the Montmelo circuit near Barcelona during testing last weekend. As Hamilton walked from the McClaren team paddock to the circuit last Saturday, he faced more insults and racist abuse.

Gerry Sutcliffe, Britain's Sports minister, condemned the incidents as "sickening" and said he would make an official protest to his Spanish counterpart.

Formula One's governing body, the FIA, has launched an investigation and could ban Spain from holding two Grands Prix in Barcelona and Valencia later this year.

Mr Calderon told the Spanish daily Publico: "We went last Sunday and we dressed up to celebrate Carnival. We wanted to give a touch of humour to Montmelo and have a laugh at the father of [Lewis] Hamilton. We didn't have the slightest intention to laugh at anyone, nor to laugh at the British driver for the colour of his skin.

"I am not a racist and it has made me ashamed to appear like that in the British press. Also, as I am in the middle of the photo [of four blacked up fans], I seem like the protagonist. This has angered me."

Mr Calderon said no one on security said a word when the group arrived at the circuit dressed as "Hamilton's family". "On the contrary, the people on security at the gate started laughing and let us pass," he said. "In fact half the people who saw us thought we were fans of Hamilton. Lots of people took pictures of us.

"If I had known that this was going to happen, I would never have dressed up, but I want to be very clear that we never intended to offend.

"We haven't done anything wrong. I would not have any problem to explain it personally to McClaren and Lewis who is a star."

Hamilton finished second in the drivers' championship last year in his rookie season and was widely blamed in Spain for the failure of his team-mate Fernando Alonso to win a third consecutive Formula One title. Hamilton said: "The truth is that I feel somewhat sad, I am in love with this country, and especially the city of Barcelona and this circuit, which is one of my three favourites."

The Spanish Motor Sports Federation expressed its "absolute repulsion" after the incident.

At Montmelo, circuit staff erected barriers around the McClaren paddock while banners making references to Hamilton and the team boss, Ron Dennis, were removed. The stands above McLaren's garage were cleared to ensure no missiles could be thrown.

Racism has dogged Spanish sport for many years and it is common at football matches for abuse to be directed at black players.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/europe/i...ton-779816.html

[dribbler 6]

EDIT: I do actually have a lesbian cousin, but that was so far from my mind it took me several minutes to think of her.

I guess it's wrong that she's very much in my mind now?

[Max Mosley 2]

You should see her girlfriend! (You don't want to hear her quite so much, given her strong Glaswegian accent, but then when do we ever want to hear women talk?)

[Eric 0]

Racism is stupid and racists are stupider.

[Rainmaster 7]

Racism is stupid and racists are stupider.

After days of debate and discussion you come in with that! Anything else you could clear up for us?

[Eric 0]

After days of debate and discussion you come in with that! Anything else you could clear up for us?

War kills.

We live, then we die.

Points racing isn't real racing. It's called strategically being as bland as possible, aka the Toyota method.

Drugs make you high.

Chess is stupid.

Crocs are the stupidest things ever.

Fanny packs are stupider.

People who wear Crocs and fanny packs should be shot, except for Graham, because we need some evidence to the future generations that these things existed.

Chumbawamba is a good word.

Moist is a stupid word.

Moist is the quality of your pants.

Communism is for communists, but democracy is for democrats.

Everyone urinates besides those who do not urinate.

Old men wear baby blue sweatsuits with bright white velcro shoes on good days.

On bad days, they wear beige.

You wouldn't care, you're only 7.

My uncle has the same name as everyone named Jim, Jimmy, and James.

[Rainmaster 7]

Moist indeed.

[Rainmaster 7]

Mosley adds fuel to the fire.

Mosley: racist abuse also seen in China

By Alan BaldwinSunday, February 10th 2008, 13:00 GMT

McLaren's Lewis Hamilton suffered racist abuse from Spanish Formula One supporters in China last year as well as at the recent Barcelona test, the head of the sport's governing body revealed on Sunday.

International Automobile Federation (FIA) president Max Mosley told Britain's Sunday Times newspaper that he had been told by Hamilton's father of incidents at the Chinese Grand Prix in Shanghai last October.

"Anthony Hamilton told me that there were some people in China who were also appallingly abusive; not Chinese fans, but people who had travelled from Spain," he said.

The FIA warned Spanish circuits and the Spanish authorities after Hamilton was insulted by the crowd at the Circuit de Catalunya this month that the country risked being stripped of its races if such behaviour continued.

Mosley reminded Spanish fans that they too could be punished.

"If they went to Australia and did something like that, they could get arrested and we would know their names and passport numbers and they wouldn't get into another country," he said.

"We will do everything we can to stamp this out, we will do whatever it takes.

"If, as appears to be the case, a very small number of people are involved, it ought to be possible to stop it immediately," he added.

"If it isn't, then we have sanctions and we could pull the Grand Prix."

A spokesman for the FIA said the governing body was developing an anti-racism campaign which it planned to roll out early in the season, which starts in Australia on March 16.

A likely launch date would be the Spanish Grand Prix in Barcelona in April.

Hamilton, the sport's first black driver, has become a hate figure in Spain because of his rivalry with former McLaren teammate and double world champion Spaniard Fernando Alonso, who now drives for Renault.

Alonso complained last season that McLaren were favouring the 22-year-old rookie, who finished overall runner-up to Ferrari's Kimi Raikkonen in a sensational debut season.

Mosley was shocked that racism should hit Formula One, saying it went against the whole ethos of the sport.

"One of the things that most attracted me to motorsport was that nobody cared about your background, race, gender or religion; the only thing that mattered was how quick you were," said the Briton, whose father Oswald was leader of the pre-war British Union of Fascists.

"In that respect, it has always brought competitors and supporters from different countries together without a hint of trouble."

[maure 1]

Mosley adds fuel to the fire.

It is not the first time that Hamilton's daddy travels this path... or the last. Hamilton is again being shoved in the wrong direction.

[Grabthaw the Hammerslayer 4]

West country? Oh dear. So you say stuff like "I would like you to meet my sister, my auntie and my wife........her name is Clare."

...and Clare is your mum

Well at least we have real cows in the west country, rather than the concrete variety in your neck of the woods

[Grabthaw the Hammerslayer 4]

I wouldn't drink it any udder way. Reminds me of a girl i once knew; lactating Laura we called her, kept tissue in her bra. I think she was form the west country.

Whilst I am proud of my heritage (someone has to be ) it has its drawbacks:

Back in the 80s the local TV news station did a piece on a new building that had been built in Bristol City Centre - called Spectrum. At the time it was very unusual in having a mirrored-glass front - very "Dallas" but unique in UK at the time - to the extent that even Prince Charles had gone on record about it being a carbuncle or such.

Anyway, the news reporters went onto the street and one man interviewed sticks in my mind:

"So, sir", the reporter asked; "what do you think of the new Spectrum building?"

The member of the public replied (spelled phonetically to give the West Country accent): "Oy think its terrybull!"

"Why do you think that?" The reporter asked.

"Well, just think if a noo-clee-yerr bom went orf - all that glaaassss......"

[elgo 1]

Amusing thread.

[Rainmaster 7]

Life is so much funnier than any sitcom...

[ecapdeville 0]

Hi!

Well...I got really late in the topic...and took me so long to read all the posts...

I understand the position of all the people sectors that in the history of humanity had suffered racism or other type of abuse from other "superior" type of people... tell me...even in my own country, the people who lives in their original and ancient towns, people who have all the race characteristics for centuries are treated bad in cities and poblations with "more civilized" way of living...we called them "indians" (word that is used since Cristobal Columbus and company arrived to America thinking they found other way to arrive to India to descrive natives, nothing against our fellow Indian friends ahhh).

I feel deeply bad for black people and their war against racism...I wish all the jew killing at WW would never happen...I wish all the Latino racism in America were over...

But at the same time, I understand Murray! any kind of insult to a people sector can be called racism...even if the damage to that sector is smaller than the other type of racism...you can really destroy someone