72 replies to this topic

[Quiet One]

Basically, that. Let's recap a little:

1 - At the start of season, they had a car that was either the best or second best (RBR was, and is, a very hard car to gauge with all its ups and downs). It still seems very competitive at most venues.

2 - You could say as many negative things about Jenson and Lewis as you want (and if you can't, I'll gladly give you a few of my own ) but Jens is not precisely known for making too many mistakes and Lewis had shown clear signs of having worked hard in that area. In any case, the mistakes from drivers alone even in the most biased against them view is not enough to explain the million of other incidents in which they were clearly not a factor.

3 - I struggle to remember a time in which McLaren performed in such an incompetent way. They have a car that is still very competitive and quite capable to at least fight for the WDC, yet I think Macca is the team that has thrown away the biggest haul of points among the top teams due to pitstop blunders, bad strategic calls and a general cluelessness when it comes to car setup for each venue.

4 - All this trascends mere bad luck, but at the same time the simplistic answers a la "Whitmarsh must go" are not too helpful as those do not explain how MW competence or not is related to a front jack failure, or Button looking more and more like Massa every Sunday.

5 - BTW, and a little OT, I think that more than Lewis, it is Button who will soon find a performance clause in his contract to get out of there fast if they keep lost at sea as they seem now. If they do not clean up their act soon, they will find that will go from having 2 WDCs to having none. Button's cheeky self seems to have vanished and that could not be just because he is not having good results (he has been there before and managed to keep a better spirit). He looks sincerely bitter and disappointed, if I were part of Macca's management I would worry.

6 - So...what do McLaren need? Like I said before "MW must go!" is not good enough. he was there for the past 4 years and they didn't seem to be this low in any of them. Pit crew cannot become incompetent and unable to change a tire just because Sam Michael is in the team, right? I am assuming they are all pretty experienced?

Any ideas?

[Massa]

I wonder if they need Rob Smedley.

Okay, not necessarily Rob Smedley, but someone with a soothing voice and a calm demeanor.

That sounded stupid but I think it is all mental.  I think it's mental with the drivers and I think it's mental with the pit crew.  They were supposed to win the WCC and WDC with ease this year.  They aren't on track for that right now; not eliminated, but not on track.  Part of that's the way the tires have worked out with keeping things very well-matched, and part of that's their fault for screwing up.  What happens when you make a mistake under pressure?

You panic.  You're under pressure, the field is so tight and that makes every mistake even more costly this season.

And so you make more mistakes because you are so focused and in such a mindset of "WE NEED A GOOD RESULT" and "I CAN'T SCREW UP EVER AGAIN."  That's the perfect mindset to be in to get bad results and screw up.

It's the same thing I said in the Button thread...you go into Silverstone and you say "we're going to do just fine at Silverstone because we're a great team with great drivers and we can" and you go about your business.  When you go into Silverstone saying "IT'S OUR HOME RACE AND WE'RE SLIPPING IN THE STANDINGS AND IF I CAN'T GET THIS TIRE ON IN TIME AND IF JENSON CAN'T COME TO TERMS WITH HIS REAR TIRES WE'RE TOASTED."

They need to just relax and I get the purely speculative impression that someone within the environment is either 1) not encouraging them to deal with these things properly and letting them panic or 2) is being very harsh in their treatment of those who are making mistakes such that they feel so bad and lose focus.  Either of those could also come from each individual within.  Mistakes always breed mistakes when you take them too seriously.  I think with all the pressure on McLaren this year, their drivers, their team, everything...they're taking it too seriously.  It's not a joke to blow a race, but blowing one race doesn't have to blow all the others if you don't let it.

And then there are just those bizarre things that happen which cannot be controlled or changed and are just part of it.  At some point, you get a large enough sample of "seasons in which McLaren has competed" and one of them's going to be just a disaster for all sorts of random factors that can't be explained.

[BradSpeedMan]

I knew there were going to be trouble when they made Sam Michael sporting director...


All downhill from there... look t the history of Williams the last few years...








FFS!!!!!

Edited by BradSpeedMan, 25 June 2012 - 03:09 PM.

[dribbler]

Lewis's pit crew+tyres+Button forgetting how to drive=McLaren 2012.

[Caesar]

as an Alonso fan i have no problems with Mclaren pit-stop issues

Edited by Caesar, 25 June 2012 - 03:31 PM.

[Rainmaster]

I'm pretty sure they've had a new pit crew, so it's a learning curve that those new guys are on*.

Ferrari seem to have the best pit stops this year but have arguably lost a lot of points through strategy. Mclaren have lost a similar amount of points through strategy and pit stops, and Red Bull seem to have maintained their status as the best overall operation.

*Not sure if it's the whole crew or just a few positions, or which came first, the mistakes which resulted in a change or just new people making mistakes.

[Quiet One]

Massa, on 25 June 2012 - 02:52 PM, said:

I wonder if they need Rob Smedley.

Okay, not necessarily Rob Smedley, but someone with a soothing voice and a calm demeanor.

That sounded stupid but I think it is all mental.  I think it's mental with the drivers and I think it's mental with the pit crew.  They were supposed to win the WCC and WDC with ease this year.  They aren't on track for that right now; not eliminated, but not on track.  Part of that's the way the tires have worked out with keeping things very well-matched, and part of that's their fault for screwing up.  What happens when you make a mistake under pressure?

You panic.  You're under pressure, the field is so tight and that makes every mistake even more costly this season.

And so you make more mistakes because you are so focused and in such a mindset of "WE NEED A GOOD RESULT" and "I CAN'T SCREW UP EVER AGAIN."  That's the perfect mindset to be in to get bad results and screw up.

It's the same thing I said in the Button thread...you go into Silverstone and you say "we're going to do just fine at Silverstone because we're a great team with great drivers and we can" and you go about your business.  When you go into Silverstone saying "IT'S OUR HOME RACE AND WE'RE SLIPPING IN THE STANDINGS AND IF I CAN'T GET THIS TIRE ON IN TIME AND IF JENSON CAN'T COME TO TERMS WITH HIS REAR TIRES WE'RE TOASTED."

They need to just relax and I get the purely speculative impression that someone within the environment is either 1) not encouraging them to deal with these things properly and letting them panic or 2) is being very harsh in their treatment of those who are making mistakes such that they feel so bad and lose focus.  Either of those could also come from each individual within.  Mistakes always breed mistakes when you take them too seriously.  I think with all the pressure on McLaren this year, their drivers, their team, everything...they're taking it too seriously.  It's not a joke to blow a race, but blowing one race doesn't have to blow all the others if you don't let it.

And then there are just those bizarre things that happen which cannot be controlled or changed and are just part of it.  At some point, you get a large enough sample of "seasons in which McLaren has competed" and one of them's going to be just a disaster for all sorts of random factors that can't be explained.

Yes, that sounded stupid. Amazingly, it was the exact same thing I thought this Sunday while watching their race go down in shambles with no external help whatsoever (ok, Pastor might have given them a little "nudge" but my thoughts came before the incident). I thought out of nowhere "they need a Rob Smedley!"

I agree with you, they need to calm down as a team.

[Rainmaster]

They need a Rob Smedley? Based on Massa's performance I'm not sure how much that would help..

They need experienced guys who aren't afraid to get it wrong, they practice enough so it's almost certainly a psychological problem.

[Quiet One]

Rainmaster, on 25 June 2012 - 05:31 PM, said:

They need a Rob Smedley? Based on Massa's performance I'm not sure how much that would help..

They need experienced guys who aren't afraid to get it wrong, they practice enough so it's almost certainly a psychological problem.

What I meant (and I think Eric as well) is that they need a "stay cool" approach more than any material changes. I do not think Button has suddenly forgotten how to drive (as Steve jokingly put it), I don't think there's a secret conspiracy within Macca to harm Lewis chances, I don't think Whitmarsh suddenly decided that his lack of personality could be offset by being a total d#ckhead ruining every step of the operation.

I think it is just the way panic works. If Alonso had not had the season he is having now (and there could have been a million things that could have gone wrong with Alonso's season even if he is the genius I think he is) you would be witnessing Ferrari doing the same thing (remember a short while ago when they kept firing random people in the hopes that somehow that would make the team run smoother?). Panic tends to self reproduce, causing more and more chaos.

They are low on morals, not in technical or human resources.

[Rainmaster]

Yep yup, I know what you meant, I was just using it literally as a way of taking a shot at Massa

I think they do need to have a calm and considered approach. That's what will get them out of this problem (Jenson's issues and the pit stops), but that in itself is not the cause imo, but it will help them identify it faster and work on it smarter. In the same way Jenson didn't suddenly forget how to drive, Mclaren didn't suddenly become a team with a losing mindset, so they definitely have material and real problems to solve. Basically, we agree.

[AleHop]

TBH I don't have a clue about what's going on within McLaren, I don't know what's the problem (if there's any) but I imagine it's getting to Hamilton's nerves.

Would have Vettel or Alonso taken that so calmly? In a such tight season!!! I don't know. As a fan I would be asking for blood.

I know it may be the worst thing to do but that mistake in Valencia was the last straw that broke the camels' back.

I'm trying to remember a driver having so many problems with his pit-stops during a season and it's hard to find any. If possible at all.

[Quiet One]

I am more worried about Jenson than about Hamilton. Curiously, Lewis frustration handling issues as bad as they seem under normal conditions work much better in this scenario than Jenson's usually upbeat attitude. LH seem to be coping much better. Button seems not only very downbeat but also completely lost. Quite a contrast.

I am no fan of Button, but I concede that his performance is way below his capabilities right now and I am saying this even aware that most of his problems come from the car, but at the same time I feel that he is more depressed than fired up because of the difficulties.

Macca must rise their game soon or they will have a destroyed guy in Jenson, or a vacant spot while JB moves to another team (and I would not blame him for doing so).

LH still has hopes. If they can improve a little bit he can be back in the hunt and enter bloodhound mode a la Alonso.

[HandyNZL]

I'm with Brad.  Sam Michaels needs shuffling along.  He's the head of the crews being sporting director and all, and the buck stops with him.  Replacing the guys doing the pits won't work as (1) they are the guys that work on the cars in the first place, so you don't just change the suspension setup dude adhoc, and (2) anyone new would take time to get up to speed, a luxury McLaren do not have.

RBR spent hours in the design room working out a bespoke thread pitch so that the wheel nuts would do up tighter in less time than conventional nuts - all that for a second in the pits (if that).  McLaren needs to take a leaf out of RBR's books, and spend some time looking at in depth ways to improve their stops - be it systems, components, or men.  Then practice, practice, practice.  (Oh and check that the air is hooked up to the front jack wouldn't hurt)

[Insider]

dribbler, on 25 June 2012 - 03:21 PM, said:

Lewis's pit crew+tyres+Button forgetting how to drive=McLaren 2012.

Hmm, interesting analysis. The pit crew performance has been way below par.  Tyres? Yes, well nobody will overcome that nemesis completely. I don't think Jens has forgotten how to drive - he went well on Sat morning. He was reasonably pleased with his race pace which kind of proves just how far behind McLaren have fallen in developing the car. By comparison, Lewis had a lot more free air to run in and to be fair, if he had survived he would have probably finished alongside Button or thereabouts.  This car isn't right and the team is way below par. So much so, that I believe Lewis will leave. They've lost a lot of good people in the past two years and both sides of the garage have their heads down. Time for changes methinks.

[AleHop]

Quiet One, on 25 June 2012 - 06:45 PM, said:

I am more worried about Jenson than about Hamilton.

I think Button will get back to speed sooner than later and he'll enjoy racing again. The WDC may be over for him and he might just have to help Hamilton and grab as many points as possible for the WCC but 2013 will be a new season and he'll be there in McLaren.

Hamilton, on the other hand, has been there since 2007. He won the title in 2008 but he wants more and he might get to think his career at McLaren is over. If he feels the team isn't up to the task he might say good bye. Problem is RB and Ferrari have no vacancies.

[Delta]

Rainmaster, on 25 June 2012 - 03:59 PM, said:

I'm pretty sure they've had a new pit crew, so it's a learning curve that those new guys are on*.

Ferrari seem to have the best pit stops this year but have arguably lost a lot of points through strategy. Mclaren have lost a similar amount of points through strategy and pit stops, and Red Bull seem to have maintained their status as the best overall operation.

*Not sure if it's the whole crew or just a few positions, or which came first, the mistakes which resulted in a change or just new people making mistakes.

Lewis's first stop was in 2.6 seconds so it's clearly not speed that's the issue, it has to be something procedural. And whatever it is they need to fix it otherwise Lewis will almost certainly leave the team. As a silver supporter their record of late has been disappointing, it's just one mistake after another. It also strikes me that they seem to have came up with little really innovative in performance terms for a couple of seasons either. Red Bull are doing almost all the running in that department.

Edited by Delta, 26 June 2012 - 12:04 AM.

[The Shadow]

The pit stop problem in Valencia was due to a faulty jack that failed to lift the front of the car. As others have pointed out, Lewis' previous stop had a stationary time of 2.6 seconds, so I don't think the pit crew can be faulted on that day. It was simply an equipment failure.

Cause for that could be an extremely compromised front jack design (due to McLaren running a lower nose than the other teams), the jack mechanism was probably stuck in the release position throughout the operation, thus it was unable to raise the car.

As for the way the season's been going, Mclaren seem to be the team that contrasts Ferrari the most. They had, probably, the best car at the start of season (not by much) while Ferrari had a car that was worse than their Sauber customer team. Difference is Ferrari worked on optimising the so-called crap package on the race weekend (doesn't matter if it was focused on one driver, they still got it done) while Mclaren seem to lose it with each passing session during the weekend. In the early part of the season it seemed that the trackside portion was letting down the drivers and team back at the factory, who have in respect, driven impeccably and created a masterpiece package.

I have been a McLaren fan since the days of Senna, Hakkinen, Kimi, Alonso and now Lewis. The reason being McLaren may not be the team with the most flashy of innovations (d-diffuser, blown diffuser, active suspension) but they seemed to be one of the most methodical and best organised racing team out there. They may be on the verge of squandering their first WCC in 14 years, but intrigue lies in how the team rises from this mess (for reference, look at Ferrari this year).

At the end of this season, Lewis and Jenson will definitely become better drivers, with more and more tools in their arsenal (by tools I dont mean the pit crew ). I hope to say the same for McLaren too.

[DPR]

I think Mclaren are really missing the presence of one Mr Ron Dennis. I honestly believe that the Mclaren is the out and out fastest car right now, but they are unable to translate the potential to reality. Teams really need to be watched over by a disapproving headmaster type, not a substitute history teacher. As it stands right now, they still have no confirmed driver line-up for next year, they still have no engine supplier for the future, and nobody wants to buy their failed supercar (British Ferrari - my arse!). Please come back Ron, and give your boys a damn good caning !

[HandyNZL]

But Ron didn't really call strategy.  They've been doing that as a team effort for many years.  McLaren is a team, and lives and dies by that.

If the above has no relevance to the above post, my bad...just landed at Kuala Lumpur after 12 hour flight and my body clock is on 2am and my cell phone on 10pm and my brain....well....there was this rather pretty young lass on the plane and maybe my minds off on other things...hurry up my next plane to continue my journey...

[Argento Reloaded]

Quiet One, on 25 June 2012 - 02:34 PM, said:

Any ideas?

Sam Michaels?

[AleHop]

Poll: Sam Michael or something else?

All of the above?

[Quiet One]

Argento Reloaded, on 26 June 2012 - 02:08 PM, said:

Sam Michaels?

Yes, he seems to be the culprit according to the latest websites gossip. I still think Sam Michaels alone cannot explain the dip in performance in obvious things they are having.

Anyways I am not sure if I should feel robbed because they are ruining two of the top drivers just when they seem to be rising to their peaks or feel relieved because it seemed at the start of season that they would be this year's RBR.

In the end, I feel (slightly) more aggravated than relieved. Besides, these things feed the feeling that the field is more levelled out than it actually is. Not everything goes down to the tires. Had Macca delivered at least at average levels, we would have had a much clearer dominance from them.

[Jean Todt]

Mclaren had c#cked up championships even when Ron Dennis was in charge, but in different ways, I wouldn't join the other forum cowboys to trash poor old Sam. Last week, the machine was jammed, it was a manufacturing defect. But they just set a new record for pitstops in motor racing history!!! 2.6 seconds! while on their way to achieve such speeds, for sure they will screw up in the beginning, because they are not on the limit, but simply pushing it....

Edited by Jean Todt, 26 June 2012 - 02:46 PM.

[Rainmaster]

I agree with JT above. Why is it being hung on Sam Michael's neck?

I think the cars are all really close which means underachieving is much easier than ever, and many of the teams underachieved to one extent or another, probably Lotus being the obvious example but Mclaren too and even Ferrari in a few races. I think even if all teams went racing perfectly this year you would not have a team dominating yet. Only Red Bull look in a position to dominate now with a (in the context of the season) huge advantage over everyone in Valencia. Obviously that advantage might disappear due to the.. curiosities.. of this season, but it does look ominous.

[HandyNZL]

Because he's Australian....born of convicts....so well used to a noose around his neck

More his record of past years, George - name one year in the past five where Williams did anything with him in charge.  He is now sporting director at Macca, and these things are under his governance.

However in saying that, I am confident that McL has the holistic governance and systems in place for the team to improve.

Button's performance is more Button than anything else at the moment (Lewis, like Nando, is proving that the cars are capable).  Button will bounce back.

[Insider]

AleHop, on 25 June 2012 - 11:40 PM, said:

I think Button will get back to speed sooner than later and he'll enjoy racing again. The WDC may be over for him and he might just have to help Hamilton and grab as many points as possible for the WCC but 2013 will be a new season and he'll be there in McLaren.

Hamilton, on the other hand, has been there since 2007. He won the title in 2008 but he wants more and he might get to think his career at McLaren is over. If he feels the team isn't up to the task he might say good bye. Problem is RB and Ferrari have no vacancies.

To be honest, I feel Lewis may head off to Mercedes. Schumi lucked in to a podium on Sunday and it was a joy to see but it doesn't tell the real story.  Equally, I believe Ross would not be adverse to giving Jenson a seat either.  I don't think he is driving badly but he's is struggling with an uncompetitive car and it's hard to keep your foot in and get your brake points right in that situation. Lewis is a karter in an F1 tub. He's picked up some finesse now but his basic style is an advantage in the current situation. Either way, I believe one of them will go and one will stay. Seriously, both of them would be better off in the second Williams at the moment! I have never seen McLaren so lacklustre and that can't continue. I just wish they'd stop talking themselves up and get on with sorting the car.

[Rainmaster]

Plenty of teams haven't been "successful" for years, it doesn't automatically mean it's one person's fault. It seems too simplistic. I was looking for a better reason than "he's the new guy" and some actual evidence this is down to him I'm going to trust that perhaps Mclaren are smarter than hiring someone who is that terribly incompetent in such a high position (it's possible though), if he was so awful I would assume he would have that reputation in the paddock?

[Quiet One]

Rainmaster, on 27 June 2012 - 12:35 PM, said:

Plenty of teams haven't been "successful" for years, it doesn't automatically mean it's one person's fault. It seems too simplistic. I was looking for a better reason than "he's the new guy" and some actual evidence this is down to him I'm going to trust that perhaps Mclaren are smarter than hiring someone who is that terribly incompetent in such a high position (it's possible though), if he was so awful I would assume he would have that reputation in the paddock?

Indeed.

[pabloh20]

Rainmaster, on 26 June 2012 - 07:30 PM, said:

I agree with JT above. Why is it being hung on Sam Michael's neck?

I think the cars are all really close which means underachieving is much easier than ever, and many of the teams underachieved to one extent or another, probably Lotus being the obvious example but Mclaren too and even Ferrari in a few races. I think even if all teams went racing perfectly this year you would not have a team dominating yet. Only Red Bull look in a position to dominate now with a (in the context of the season) huge advantage over everyone in Valencia. Obviously that advantage might disappear due to the.. curiosities.. of this season, but it does look ominous.

That, probably more than anything else, is the problem.  In other seasons, the mistakes they have made would not have cost them anywhere near as dearly as it has this season.

[Quiet One]

pabloh20, on 27 June 2012 - 01:03 PM, said:

That, probably more than anything else, is the problem.  In other seasons, the mistakes they have made would not have cost them anywhere near as dearly as it has this season.

Looking back I am not so sure. Most races saw either McLaren or RBR having impressive pace above the others. I think the levelled field owes more to the differences in tire degradation which still seem difficult to predict and "unforced errors" or bad luck/mechanical gremlins more than cars actually performing at a similar level. The only car which seems consistently delivering as some sort of second best car is the Lotus. But at most races the car on top seemed to  have a much faster pace than the rest, and the rest being bunched tightly together