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cavallino

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Part 1) "if the race ends whilst the safety car is deployed it will enter the pitlane at the end of the last lap". This part seems to define a safety car (SC) finish, the quoted line defines what constitutes a SC finish. A SC finish is clearly defined as "if the race ends whilst the safety car is deployed it will enter the pitlane at the end of the last lap" (emphasis added by me). Therefore the defining characteristic of a safety car finish is the safety car "entering the pitlane at the end of the last lap".

The safety car did not enter the pit at the end of the last lap. It entered the pit before the end of the last lap. The last lap had not ended, it was still going. Everyone got clarification that the area was clear and there were green lights. How much clearer does it have to be?

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I suspect what the FIA meant by "as normal" was that the driver shall take the chequered flag as they usually do at the end of a race, which means that despite the Safety Car finish you still have to cross the start/finish line if you want to be a classified finisher.

'As normal' and 'without overtaking' make the rule clear for my 2 years old nephew. It doesn't matter what other parts of the book of rules says about flags and colours because this rule is for a very specific case where the SC is on in the last lap of the race

If only it were that easy laugh.gif

I agree the wording of the rule could have been clearer but there's no other interpretation possible of such rule because it's specific for just 1 and only 1 case: last lap under the SC, if you could overtake or not depending on the flags after the SC enters the pit-lane in the last lap then the rule would not be there because there wouldn't be any difference about the SC in the last lap or any other lap.

Think about it! I'm not a lawyer but I have some knowledge. If you have a rule for a specific case then you override whatever the rest of the rules say in other circumstances.

40.13 If the race ends whilst the safety car is deployed it will enter the pit lane at the end of the last lap and the cars will take the chequered flag as normal without overtaking.

Probably my English is not good enough to explain myself clearly.

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sorry if it has been posted before,

And Mercedes reserve driver Nick Heidfeld told Sky television: "The move was very clean.

"The rules are different this year. In the past you could only overtake from the start/finish line, now it is from the safety car line. Alonso was a little bit asleep," added the German.

http://www.f1complete.com/2010-news/17049-merc-teammates-side-with-schu-over-alonso-move

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'As normal' and 'without overtaking' make the rule clear for my 2 years old nephew. It doesn't matter what other parts of the book of rules says about flags and colours because this rule is for a very specific case where the SC is on in the last lap of the race

I agree the wording of the rule could have been clearer but there's no other interpretation possible of such rule because it's specific for just 1 and only 1 case: last lap under the SC, if you could overtake or not depending on the flags after the SC enters the pit-lane in the last lap then the rule would not be there because there wouldn't be any difference about the SC in the last lap or any other lap.

Think about it! I'm not a lawyer but I have some knowledge. If you have a rule for a specific case then you override whatever the rest of the rules say in other circumstances.

40.13 If the race ends whilst the safety car is deployed it will enter the pit lane at the end of the last lap and the cars will take the chequered flag as normal without overtaking.

Probably my English is not good enough to explain myself clearly.

It would be good if you explain to the public why the green lights/flags were displayed after the safety car entered the pits? as you could see in the F1 regulation states that GREEN LIGHTS mean the driver are FREE TO RACE AGAIN and there were green lights so they were free to race again to penalty in unfear.

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sorry if it has been posted before,

And Mercedes reserve driver Nick Heidfeld told Sky television: "The move was very clean.

"The rules are different this year. In the past you could only overtake from the start/finish line, now it is from the safety car line. Alonso was a little bit asleep," added the German.

http://www.f1complete.com/2010-news/17049-merc-teammates-side-with-schu-over-alonso-move

I posted before but it is good that you did it again because it looks like they didn't see it when I did. B):P

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It would be good if you explain to the public why the green lights/flags were displayed after the safety car entered the pits? as you could see in the F1 regulation states that GREEN LIGHTS mean the driver are FREE TO RACE AGAIN and there were green lights so they were free to race again to penalty in unfear.

As I said before if you have a general rule saying A and a specific rule saying B you have to stick to whatever B says for that specific case.

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As I said before if you have a general rule saying A and a specific rule saying B you have to stick to whatever B says for that specific case.

I understand that but what you don't seem to understand is that this race didn't finished under a Safety Car as treh track went back to green and even the people from the Live Timing said the move was legal and the Live Timing window shows the track as green during the pass, this is same info that the teams get too, so the race didn't finished under SC.

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As I said before if you have a general rule saying A and a specific rule saying B you have to stick to whatever B says for that specific case.

But how do you know that the race was ending under SC? Maybe the SC was coming off on that lap even if it wasn't the last lap? Then, obviously, the race wasn't ending under SC, few corners were left in the race, and this specific rule doesn't apply. The fact that green flags were waved indicates that this indeed is the case. If the race was ending under the SC, then yellow flags should've been shown all the way to the end, and the safety car is pulled to the pits just so that the photos of the finish line don't show the SC.

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I understand that but what you don't seem to understand is that this race didn't finished under a Safety Car as treh track went back to green and even the people from the Live Timing said the move was legal and the Live Timing window shows the track as green during the pass, this is same info that the teams get too, so the race didn't finished under SC.

Ok, I will be very specific just for you.

We have a general rule: green track = racing allowed.

And a specific one: 40.13 If the race ends whilst the safety car is deployed it will enter the pit lane at the end of the last lap and the cars will take the chequered flag as normal without overtaking.

The specific one prevails.

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Ok, I will be very specific just for you.

We have a general rule: green track = racing allowed.

And a specific one: 40.13 If the race ends whilst the safety car is deployed it will enter the pit lane at the end of the last lap and the cars will take the chequered flag as normal without overtaking.

The specific one prevails.

The specific rule prevails only if the conditions are such that it can be applied. Was the race ending while the safety car was deployed? Do you know that the safety car had not come in if it wasn't the last lap?

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But how do you know that the race was ending under SC? Maybe the SC was coming off on that lap even if it wasn't the last lap? Then, obviously, the race wasn't ending under SC, few corners were left in the race, and this specific rule doesn't apply. The fact that green flags were waved indicates that this indeed is the case. If the race was ending under the SC, then yellow flags should've been shown all the way to the end, and the safety car is pulled to the pits just so that the photos of the finish line don't show the SC.

Problem is it was the last lap.

I agree the wording of the rule could have been clearer but there's no other interpretation possible of such rule because it's specific for just 1 and only 1 case: last lap under the SC, if you could overtake or not depending on the flags after the SC enters the pit-lane in the last lap then the rule would not be there because there wouldn't be any difference about the SC in the last lap or any other lap.

I haven't changed my mind.

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I hear whispers that the stewards might reverse the decision. First time ever the FIA will actually hold their hands up and say "K, we were wrong here guys."

I think that deep down the drivers knew that the race WASN'T over. Surely they could have all tootled to the line if it was waving to the crowd if it was, because hey, they aren't at risk of being overtaken.

It'll be interesting to see if Ferrari WERE telling the truth by saying they told their drivers the race was over, because by the way Alonso re-started it seemed like anything but.

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I think Ikyrotz, Paul, Tommy etc have it right. George, Andres and Alex have it wrong (which I only point out to wind them up, obviously, and to make George pay for siding with the Alonso fans :P ).

I'm no lawyer but rule 40.13 seems very unclear to any normal English speaker without a legal training and frankly so do most of the other rules now that I've had a skim through them. It's not at all clear to me that 40.13 makes X into a sufficient condition for Y, where X is the safety car "enter[ing] the pit lane at the end of the last lap" and Y is "the race end[ing] whilst the safety car is deployed". I think the rule is closer to saying Y is a sufficient condition for X. In other words, the safety car coming into the pits on the last lap doesn't automatically mean that it's coming in because of rule 40.13 - it might just be coming in because "the track is clear", we're under "green flag conditions" and racing is resuming.

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Problem is it was the last lap.

That is not a problem. The question is, did the SC come off the track because the track was clear for racing (= race did -not- end while SC was deployed) or because of this specific rule, which says that SC comes to pit lane even though SC period is still in progress (= race -did- end while SC was deployed). The -fact- that green flags were shown indicates that the former is the case, and thus Schumis passing was legitimate. Note that in the past, when SC enters the pits on the last lap, -yellow- flags have been waved as the sign that SC period is still on even though the SC itself went to the pits, meaning that track is not clear for racing and SC would not have entered the pits had it not been the last lap.

All in all, I think it's fairly clear from the flags that the race did not end while SC was deployed and thus this particular rule does not apply.

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'As normal' and 'without overtaking' make the rule clear for my 2 years old nephew. It doesn't matter what other parts of the book of rules says about flags and colours because this rule is for a very specific case where the SC is on in the last lap of the race

I agree the wording of the rule could have been clearer but there's no other interpretation possible of such rule because it's specific for just 1 and only 1 case: last lap under the SC, if you could overtake or not depending on the flags after the SC enters the pit-lane in the last lap then the rule would not be there because there wouldn't be any difference about the SC in the last lap or any other lap.

Think about it! I'm not a lawyer but I have some knowledge. If you have a rule for a specific case then you override whatever the rest of the rules say in other circumstances.

40.13 If the race ends whilst the safety car is deployed it will enter the pit lane at the end of the last lap and the cars will take the chequered flag as normal without overtaking.

Probably my English is not good enough to explain myself clearly.

Hmmmmmm. I know what you are saying, but I am not sure that is the correct assumption. The rules exists to explain that even if it's SC finish, the SC will never cross the finish line on the last lap. I think that bit is pretty clear. However, just because the SC enters the pits at the end of the last lap, I am not sure it can automatically follow that it's a SC finish. It could be that the SC was going to come in then, regardless that the race was finishing on that lap. In that case, it's not a SC finish, but a short race to the finish line. It seems highly improbable that you would want such a scenario, but not beyond the realms of possibility, especially in FIA land.

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I think Ikyrotz, Paul, Tommy etc have it right. George, Andres and Alex have it wrong (which I only point out to wind them up, obviously, and to make George pay for siding with the Alonso fans :P ).

I'm no lawyer but rule 40.13 seems very unclear to any normal English speaker without a legal training and frankly so do most of the other rules now that I've had a skim through them. It's not at all clear to me that 40.13 makes X into a sufficient condition for Y, where X is the safety car "enter[ing] the pit lane at the end of the last lap" and Y is "the race end[ing] whilst the safety car is deployed". I think the rule is closer to saying Y is a sufficient condition for X. In other words, the safety car coming into the pits on the last lap doesn't automatically mean that it's coming in because of rule 40.13 - it might just be coming in because "the track is clear", we're under "green flag conditions" and racing is resuming.

I'm worried on 2 accounts. 1 that you agree with me and 2 that I think the rule is clear :lol:

I'm with you, though, I don't know what constitutes a SC finish. How is it indicated to teams/drivers would probably be the pertinent question.

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Ok, I will be very specific just for you.

We have a general rule: green track = racing allowed.

And a specific one: 40.13 If the race ends whilst the safety car is deployed it will enter the pit lane at the end of the last lap and the cars will take the chequered flag as normal without overtaking.

The specific one prevails.

Please notice the the second has a variable, If the race ends whilst the safety car is deploy but this was not the case, when they announced "Safety car in this lap" it means the SC period is over, had the second rule being in place there would have been no need to announced that the SC in coming in because the rules says it will have to get in anyway and besides that the track was declared Green meaning racing is allowed after the SC line.

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I'm worried on 2 accounts. 1 that you agree with me and 2 that I think the rule is clear :lol:

:lol:

OK so just to be clear, exactly what 2 accounts are you worried on? I know one of them is Pabloh20...

I'm with you, though, I don't know what constitutes a SC finish. How is it indicated to teams/drivers would probably be the pertinent question.

Yeah I think you're right. And as far as I can see (it gets tedious faster than Michael up the inside of Rascasse) there are no rules that explain this! But maybe I'm wrong about that...

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Hmmmmmm. I know what you are saying, but I am not sure that is the correct assumption. The rules exists to explain that even if it's SC finish, the SC will never cross the finish line on the last lap. I think that bit is pretty clear. However, just because the SC enters the pits at the end of the last lap, I am not sure it can automatically follow that it's a SC finish. It could be that the SC was going to come in then, regardless that the race was finishing on that lap. In that case, it's not a SC finish, but a short race to the finish line. It seems highly improbable that you would want such a scenario, but not beyond the realms of possibility, especially in FIA land.

If the FIA say what they want they mean with that rule is that the SC will never cross the finish line...

40.11 When the clerk of the course decides it is safe to call in the safety car the message "SAFETY CAR IN THIS LAP" will be displayed on the timing monitors and the car's orange lights will be extinguished This will be the signal to the teams and drivers that it will be entering the pit lane at the end of that lap.

At this point the first car in line behind the safety car may dictate the pace and, if necessary, fall more than ten car lengths behind it.

In order to avoid the likelihood of accidents before the safety car returns to the pits, from the point at which the lights on the car are turned out drivers must proceed at a pace which involves no erratic acceleration or braking nor any other manoeuvre which is likely to endanger other drivers or impede the restart.

As the safety car is approaching the pit entry the yellow flags and SC boards will be withdrawn and replaced by waved green flags with green lights at the Line. These will be displayed until the last car crosses the Line.

If all those conditions were met properly before the SC entered the pit-lane on the last lap then things could be different.

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I'm no lawyer but rule 40.13 seems very unclear to any normal English speaker without a legal training and frankly so do most of the other rules now that I've had a skim through them. It's not at all clear to me that 40.13 makes X into a sufficient condition for Y, where X is the safety car "enter[ing] the pit lane at the end of the last lap" and Y is "the race end[ing] whilst the safety car is deployed". I think the rule is closer to saying Y is a sufficient condition for X. In other words, the safety car coming into the pits on the last lap doesn't automatically mean that it's coming in because of rule 40.13 - it might just be coming in because "the track is clear", we're under "green flag conditions" and racing is resuming.

Fcking hell, your English is worse than mine. WTF you mean?

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HAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAHAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAHAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAHAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAHAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA

:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

I thought you wrote this when you knew Shumacher was penalized!

Anyway...youre right

HAHAAAAAAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA 20 seconds HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA 6 place? HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

:)

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Okay, I'll try to explain again, I agree with Ale though but I will explain some things in a more long-winded fashion!

Firsly, yes, there are different rules surrounding the Safety car deployment. I think the relevant one here is 40.13 and it seems that this rule would supersede any other safety car rule because it applies to the SC finish specifically (i.e. when a race comes to an end under a safety car). As Alehop says, if you have a bunch of rules regarding something, but a specific rule for a specific situation then that particular rule is what needs to be looked at and interpreted. That is the first thing that people must accept, in this case the rule states no overtaking in a particular situation despite the fact you can usually do so after the first safety car line. That situation which is different is when a race finishes under a safety car.

So the question becomes, did the race end under the safety car so that this is the right rule to look at and apply?

Obviously, there is a reason that a SC finish rule exists, because in some situations races will "end" under a SC and, for whatever reason, the powers that be don't want racing on the last blast to the finish line.

The rule states "if the race ends whilst the safety car is deployed it will enter the pitlane at the end of the last lap and the cars will take the chequered flag as normal without overtaking".

From my interpretation, this rule is clear enough and indicates the definition of a safety car finish to a Grand Prix. It is determined by the SC being out on the last lap, and that it will always enter the pits on the last lap. If there is another set of rules which discusses a safety car finish, then they would be useful but I don't know of any other rules about that. So considering that, this rule seems to be our only source of information on what a SC finish is.

From that, we can take two positions. 1) This rule only talks about overtaking being forbidden under a safety car finish but doesn't actually explain what constitutes a SC finish, or 2) This rule defines a Safety car finish as the SC pitting at the "end" of the last lap (more on that later).

It seems the most reasonable approach is to accept that the FIA aren't going to make a rule (no overtaking) but not actually say when it applies by not defining a SC finish. Furthermore it doesn't seem a strange definition of a SC finish to me, i.e. a SC finish is when the SC is out on the last lap, basically. Makes sense, right?

The idea that it "might have been coming in that lap anyway" is something I struggle with. I think it's irrelevant, if the safety car is out on the last lap then surely it's clear that the race is ending under a safety car? How else would we know? It would be extremely odd if on some occasions the safety car pitted on the last lap but it wasn't a SC finish and on other occasions it did the same and was. Basically, I believe what defines a SC finish is the SC being out on the last lap. Why? It seems logical to me. Yes, the FIA may have it in an illogical way, though.

Okay, if you can accept my logic there is more likely than not, and can see why interpretation 2 seems more reasonable, read on.

@Dribbler, you think the whole rule is invalid because the SC doesn't pit at the "end" of the last lap, right? Well, you're right, it doesn't, then again, how could it? How would that be possible? The only way to achieve that would be to have a pitlane entrance which coincided with the start/finish line. How many circuits have that? None. So clearly the wording is poor and makes the whole thing invalid? Well, no. Not if we think about the rule in a practical fashion and don't take the meaning of the word "end" so literally. We have to modify the meaning of the word "end" so it doesn't mean "at the exact last part of the last lap" to "towards the end of the last lap" otherwise the rule would never work. I know, you are thinking this is really terrible, badly written wording by the FIA, but language is an imperfect tool but it’s all we have to write with! Non-FIA example: http://www.e-lawreso...5&t=120&start=0

Again, there is another problem with the wording of the rule. It says: “if the race ends whilst the safety car is deployed”. Well, hold on a minute, the race didn’t end when the safety car was deployed, did it? I mean, we all saw the safety car enter the pitlane, and the race was still going, right? Not all of the cars had passed the start/finish line, not even the leader, so the race hadn’t ended? Surely the race "ends" after the Safety car pulls into the pitlane (no longer deployed) and all of the cars have crossed the finish line, so again the rule makes no sense whatsoever.

Again, we have to consider which meaning of the word “ends” to use. We could take it literally, as in “all of the cars must have passed the start/finish line” or “the leader must have crossed the start/finish line”, then the race has “ended”. Or, we might think actually, a race can’t ever end whilst the safety car is deployed because it always pulls in on the last lap (if we accept that this is the rule which governs safety car finishes). That is unless we change the meaning of the word again. We could say instead of the race "ends" relating to the start/finish line, it actually relates to “racing for position” ending, i.e. because drivers can no longer race for position there is no longer a race, the race has, in effect, ended.

Another problem is “as normal”. Surely taking the chequered flag “as normal” implies that drivers are allowed to race, and completely contradicts the following statement “without overtaking”? Again, you have to apply common sense to the wording and consider the meaning of “normal”. Does it mean “Being usual, typical or standard”, i.e. drivers would typically, usually race for position across the start/finish line or when taking the flag on the last lap? Or could it mean “Being usual, typical or standard” as in it is standard, usual, and typical for a driver to take the chequered flag at the end of a race? The latter, again, makes more sense and fits with the “without overtaking”.

So, if you take the rule literally, what do you get: “if the race stops and is no longer taking place when the safety car is deployed, then the safety car will pit at the exact end of the last lap, and the cars will take the chequered flag, racing for position as usual, without overtaking”.

However, if you look at each word in context, and don’t take such a literal view, then what do you get: “if a safety car is still deployed on the last lap then the race has ended because drivers can no longer race for position, in this situation the safety car will enter the pitlane towards the end of the last lap and drivers will continue to take the chequered flag as they usually do on the last lap, but without overtaking”.

Yes, I could have written the FIA rules better :lol:

Anyway, that is those issues of interpretation dealt with. The other issue, and the far more important one where Schumi and Brawn have a stronger case, is the green flags on the track. Again, I don't know whether in this situation the written rules supersede the traditional use of flags. As Alehop says, usually in a specific situation the specific rule applies, though.

Annoyingly, I could be right about all this and the FIA could over-turn the decision and you smarmy buggers would think you're awesome!

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I've been watching at the last lap again and all those conditions were met. The FIA sucks but Schumacher at least deserves the 7th place. It can only happen in FIA's planet, I expect Ferrari trying to convince the FIA about how stupid and confusing that rule was but for sure they knew it before hand.

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