Does Kimi Break His Toys?

[Jean Todt 4]

Michael was in his worst start to a season position, he made crucial mistakes during the start to the season. The only way Kimi could benefit was by being consistent in a car that was not on par to Ferrari or Williams, THE WHOLE YEAR. Michael was able to close the gap by accumulating race wins, because he could in a very good and capable car. Do i need to exaggerate on these points even further so you might understand how good Kimi performed Cav, or is it a liitle bit clearer to you now?

[BradSpeedMan 6]

I can say it quite easily.

Kimi is the eternal nearly-man of F1...

People here have actually said he IS champion, and this is obviously wrong. He is good, and a race winner, but to call him a champion is massively overrating him, however close he has got in the past.

He's champion material, every team trying to acquire his services knows that, thats why he is in high demand....

[Jem of the Shire 0]

I can say it quite easily.

Kimi is the eternal nearly-man of F1...

People here have actually said he IS champion, and this is obviously wrong. He is good, and a race winner, but to call him a champion is massively overrating him, however close he has got in the past.

[/quote

Its obviously not massively overrating him if he came within 2 points of winning it. If MS had scored 3 less points in 2003, kimi would have been the champion that year, so what are you on about? I honestly don't think anyone at all will agree with you on this

[demonhorse 0]

If... IF... thats the key word. IF isn't the same as IS or WAS is it now? Unless the english language has changed drastically since I was at school.

Oh yes wasn't that the year Schumacher only need ONE point in the last race where Kimi needed the win? very unlikely.

"I honestly don't think anyone at all will agree with you on this"

err check the stats of this poll, that disproves that particular statement... any more untruths to share?

[Autumnpuma 0]

err check the stats of this poll, that disproves that particular statement... any more untruths to share?

Indeed. I was expecting exactly one vote in favor..mine

Although it is possible that the industrious Kimi legions have poured out of the woodwork and stood to defend thier god....or at least created alternate accounts for the poll...(hey, maybe I should do that... )

[Jem of the Shire 0]

If... IF... thats the key word. IF isn't the same as IS or WAS is it now? Unless the english language has changed drastically since I was at school.

Oh yes wasn't that the year Schumacher only need ONE point in the last race where Kimi needed the win? very unlikely.

"I honestly don't think anyone at all will agree with you on this"

err check the stats of this poll, that disproves that particular statement... any more untruths to share?

You are weird. Kimi came within 2 pts of being wdc in 2003, and you say its a massive exaggeration to say he's a potential title-winner? Doesnt that seem stupid to you???

As for the poll, thats titled 'does kimi break his toys' u prat we're not arguing about that are we

[BradSpeedMan 6]

Indeed. I was expecting exactly one vote in favor..mine

Although it is possible that the industrious Kimi legions have poured out of the woodwork and stood to defend thier god....

just a thought, my dear old friend, why did'nt you think of this when you decided to create the thread

[Autumnpuma 0]

just a thought, my dear old friend, why did'nt you think of this when you decided to create the thread

Wait a minute...you mean you have to think before creating a thread?!!?

It all turned out well. I'm not alone in my views.

[BradSpeedMan 6]

Wait a minute...you mean you have to think before creating a thread?!!?

It all turned out well. I'm not alone in my views.

you're right, i did'nt expect the poll too be this close... well done Apuma

Where is MonzaGorilla, is another old wisdom leaving us cause of the Sh#t we debate about?

[Autumnpuma 0]

Where is MonzaGorilla, is another old wisdom leaving us cause of the Sh#t we debate about?

I think monza is out having fun at an Isle of Wight thing...I have no clue what that is; never having been to England...

[ykickamoocow 0]

I think monza is out having fun at an Isle of Wight thing...I have no clue what that is; never having been to England...

England is a small country so he shouldnt be that far away from his home.

[Jem of the Shire 0]

you're right, i did'nt expect the poll too be this close... well done Apuma

Where is MonzaGorilla, is another old wisdom leaving us cause of the Sh#t we debate about?

I think MG is probably just surprised at how many dumbasses actually believe that kimi's engine failures are his own fault and that he should slow down

[Jean Todt 4]

I think MG is probably just surprised at how many dumbasses actually believe that kimi's engine failures are his own fault and that he should slow down

I think MG is probably just surprised at how many dumbasses actually believe that kimi's engine failures are his own fault and that he should slow down

you could be right jem.....

if kimi was hard on the engine his team would have publicly cried over it.....mercedes have publicly admitted that they would like to retain kimis service....otherwise they would have just been waiting for him to get out.....

what about montoya? guys where saying he is always hard on the engine but he never blew as many engine as kimi did. the reason is becasue he took his time to get used to mclarens (in between he had a stupid tennis injury) thus he never got the chance to push the car to limits as kimi did, and whenever he did, he ended up in the wall or out of the race....besides every racer pushes the engines only to a certain amout, beyond that the simply over rev and waste time...some of you may not be able to understand me but if the reader(of this particular post) has regularly driven a sports car around a track would uderstand what i exaclty meant by quoting that time would be wasted by over reving the engine.

yet if you guys still argue that kimi still over revs the engine, you should have the brains to compare the amount of fuel he uses for the race, if he over revs the engine he uses more fuel...but he always has used the same amount of fuel his team mate has(over a race distance)..stil not convinced? do the math during the next race!

simple as that!

[Jem of the Shire 0]

yes why would mclaren be desperate to retain him, and other teams desperate to sign him, if he causes engine failures?

[Jean Todt 4]

He benefited from reliability and a screwed up points system, really that season was williams' to win.

if only ms or ferrari were to benifit from such point systems i doubt ferrari and their fans would have ever cried...

no one bitched when mclaren and williams were dominating, (as someone already said)f1 was at its best those days. now when a particular rule doesnt suit ferrari(such as single tyre rule and if you want me to dig it up, they were the ones who protested mercedes using exotic materials in their engines after 1999 season) they start moaning and get it changed....

williams would have won it if only montoya driving a faster car had been half as consistent as kimi, and if he stayed away from incidents such as involving in an unwanted overtaking try with barichello during U.S. GP., may be he would have been in a better chance....

[sliderule 0]

puma agree or not it doesn't matter, I must say great topic you've started!

[Jem of the Shire 0]

williams would have won it if only montoya driving a faster car had been half as consistent as kimi, and if he stayed away from incidents such as involving in an unwanted overtaking try with barichello during U.S. GP., may be he would have been in a better chance....

What a load of rubbish. In 2003 JPM was almost the most consistent driver out there. Look at his results, (first number is grid position, second is finishing position). I notice you neglect to mention ralf schumacher, I suppose you think he was outstanding that year?

Australian 3 2

Malaysian 8 12

Brazilian 9 Ret

San Marino 4 7 0

Spanish 9 4

Austrian 3 Ret

Monaco 3 1

Canadian 2 3

European 4 2

French 2 2

British 7 2

German 1 1

Hungarian 4 3

Italian 2 2

United States 4 6

Japanese 2 Ret

[sliderule 0]

It is commonly known fact, that Alonso's driving style is 'awkward'. He has a good pace, when car is perfect to his driving style. But when not, he is is real trouble. Renault has been capable of delivering him almost perfect car. Do you think Mclaren can do it next year?

would you mind sharing how did you come up with this assesment of matador's style cause of what I've read it seems he is quite good at adapting to the car's characteristics, moreover it seems that with todays aero rules cars tend to understeer quite a bit and it seems that suits Alonso a bit more than it would for example Montoya how we all know prefers a tad of oversteer

[pumpdoc 2]

It's the McLaren team and car that are not up to snuff, end of, full stop!!!

[BradSpeedMan 6]

It's the McLaren team and car that are not up to snuff, end of, full stop!!!

Halleluah

where were you the last 2 days pumpdoc lol

[raikkonen_dominates 0]

would you mind sharing how did you come up with this assesment of matador's style cause of what I've read it seems he is quite good at adapting to the car's characteristics, moreover it seems that with todays aero rules cars tend to understeer quite a bit and it seems that suits Alonso a bit more than it would for example Montoya how we all know prefers a tad of oversteer

What do you mean? Everybody in F1 knows, that Alonso's car setup is so difficult, that nobody else can drive a car even near of that. Fisichella has been suffering from this fact now for years.

And Alonso certainly is in trouble with understeering car, just remember last year's Monaco, when the tyres were worn Alonso was in real trouble. Alonso really needs a bit oversteering car to be in pace.

Also with Minardi, the car most certainly was understeering, and Alonso didn't really impress when compared to his team-mate. Ok, that was his first year in F1, but somebody has been here comparing also Kimi's performance to his team-mate in sauber, his first year.

And next year in Mclaren we will see the result, that obviously will surprise many people here.

Alonso will be in Montoya-Coulthard axis in performance, when compared to Kimi (those guys were also conserned as top drivers before being Kimi's team-mates)

[pumpdoc 2]

Halleluah

where were you the last 2 days pumpdoc lol

Been super busy at work, not much time for the old pc when i get home, eat shower and fall asleep. Old age gets to ya sometimes.

I had to put in my .02 worth on this non subject, when Kimi goes to Ferrari next year and Fernando's in the 'glass car next year the masses will realise that it's the car more than the driver.

All you have ever heard from day one is that Kimi is one if not the smoothest drivers going.........

[Autumnpuma 0]

Let me 'splain...no, that would take too long...let me sum up...

McLaren/Ilmor is not building a very reliable car. It doesn't always break, but if you push the machinery too hard, the McLaren will break before, say, the Renault or Ferrari.

We all know how fragile the McLaren is. Kimi knows this as well.

My point is that Kimi pushes his car past that car's mechanical limits and ends up with more DNF's than he would if he took more care of his frail McLaren.

If Kimi's goal is a WDC, he needs to amass points, not fastest laps. He can only amass points if he finishes the race. He can only finish races if he looks after his car better while on-track.

To say that a car is not affected by driving styles is sheer fantasy.

As for 'smooth driver', Bruce, what exactly do you mean? Button and Heidfeld are called smooth because their telemetry shows that they apply throttle smoothly. A gentle slope of acceleration out of a corner.

Alonso and Kimi both coast through the apex and stand hard on the throttle on exit (Alonso moreso than Kimi). All you have to do is look at the world TV feed and see this. Published telemetry on Kimi and Alonso show this as well...they both have steep cliffs of acceleration compared to Button and Heidfeld.

Kimi has a smoother turn-in, but as for using the engine's revs, he is just as hard as Alonso. Where Kimi appears smooth is in his racing line. He has an uncanny ability to straighten out a course.

In the end, McLaren SHOULD build a better car. In the real world we have to deal with what IS, not with what SHOULD BE. McLaren IS frail, so Kimi should bear this in mind and drive within the car's limitations or he will never accumulate enough points for a WDC.

I cannot possibly be more clear than this.

[KoolMonkey 0]

Good points puma. However if a driver does not push their machinery, then they have no place in F1. Asked after Kimi's near amazing win at the Euro GP last year, many top persons in the pitlane said they would have pushed for the win as well. Ron Dennis has said on many occasions that he goes for the wins, and not for the "playing it safe" and coming in 2nd, 3rd, wherever. Has this caused their team to lose WDCs? of course. Has their lack of a defined #1 and #2 (ala Ferrari), hurt them? yes again.

You point out that if Kimi was less agressive on his cars, that maybe they wouldn't break as much. That certainly is a possibility. But Mika also experienced the unreliable McLarens. So did DC. Heck look back at Ferrari before Schumi joined and even a year or 2 after he joined and see how much of a bomb those cars were. It was a given that one of the red turds was going to blowup at a GP. Now look at them. Their car is bulletproof pretty much and has been for years. The difference was they built a better car. Both McLaren and Mercedes are on record many times as saying they need to improve reliability. McLaren and Mercedes see more telemetry and other numbers than we will ever see. The fact they are so desperate to retain Kimi shows they believe in him as well. The sad part of it is, I think Kimi will leave for Ferrari. Wanting to built a fast reliable car, is not the same as actually doing it. Had McLaren not built a rocket last year, this wouldn't be so much of an issue. But the fact remains, McLaren are lacking reliability and since Newey has gone, I think are lacking in general car development as well.

[Jean Todt 4]

What a load of rubbish. In 2003 JPM was almost the most consistent driver out there. Look at his results, (first number is grid position, second is finishing position). I notice you neglect to mention ralf schumacher, I suppose you think he was outstanding that year?

Australian 3 2

Malaysian 8 12

Brazilian 9 Ret

San Marino 4 7 0

Spanish 9 4

Austrian 3 Ret

Monaco 3 1

Canadian 2 3

European 4 2

French 2 2

British 7 2

German 1 1

Hungarian 4 3

Italian 2 2

United States 4 6

Japanese 2 Ret

What a load of rubbish. In 2003 JPM was almost the most consistent driver out there. Look at his results, (first number is grid position, second is finishing position). I notice you neglect to mention ralf schumacher, I suppose you think he was outstanding that year?

Australian 3 2

Malaysian 8 12

Brazilian 9 Ret

San Marino 4 7 0

Spanish 9 4

Austrian 3 Ret

Monaco 3 1

Canadian 2 3

European 4 2

French 2 2

British 7 2

German 1 1

Hungarian 4 3

Italian 2 2

United States 4 6

Japanese 2 Ret

kimi and micheal scored better points more consistently than montoya thats why they were ahead of jpm when they headed to suzuka, if you look carefully jpm had a better car compared to ms and kr..well, i am sure montoya could have been closer to ms and kimi, or infact won the wdc if he had a better finish in us gp..and there were races where he had only himself to blame. i dont know about ralf cos i really dont care for that guy, so forgive me for not even considering that guy....i guess jpm had his best season to date during 2003.