I'm Not Perfect

[cavallino 2]

If nothing is done, then you have a choice to make 1) stay and participate, trying to abide by the unwritten rules that govern this place or 2) leave.

Not really, that's a false dichotomy. For one, we have no consistent rules, written or unwritten. And we have no accountability either. That is a recipe for disaster when we have the sheer incompetence taht our current moderators manage to exhibit. Which is why we need either new site policy, new moderators, or no moderators. Even if we have clear site policy, I have little faith in the ability of the current lot to follow it, they have shown no desire to follow the few rules that exist, e.g. giving a reason for locking threads. So that leaves just two. Which leaves a third option. Continue to take part and keep pushing for changes. I've stopped mincing words though and stopped caring about whatever 'action' the current mods will take.

I will not do what you are doing, however, and seek to draw the forum into an issue that is yours, and yours alone, to deal with.

No it isn't. If any member is being treated unfairly and if we don't have the same rules for everyone, it is an issue that affects everyone. You may not care, but that is entirely your choice.

Ctrl300's anti-semitic innuendos against me raised less controversy than his attacks against muslims or Indians just because there aren't many jewish descendants around.

I don't remember if he went that far with that, I doubt it.

1). Gray areas could be easily be discussed amongst members (we are just a bunch of guys, not millions).

They aren't. The moderators have category refused to justify their decisions, to state the principles by which they operate, to consider an open debate on the topic of moderation, or to make any effort to be fair and open. When I asked the question I was told that things happen in the secret moderator forum that I know nothing about, and that somehow justifies their unfair conduct on the forum, that I can see.

I would say you demonstrated my position nicely. Instead of making a public fuss about it, you deflected Ctrl300 in your own clever (and humorous) way

I tried to deflect a similar poster earlier, not sure if it was too clever or humorous. But I was banned, the original poster wasn't. So that isn't an option for me.

Jay, your posts on free speech are classics and should be posted everywhere there is room for it. Bajo recently re-posted your thoughts from an older, longer thread and they are worth reviewing every so often; much like an ancient mariner reviews his trusty astrolabe to make sure he's sailing the right path.

The question is how far are you prepared to go to defend free speech. It is all right to do so in an open and fair society where the crazy voices are a minority. On a forum for example if there are one or two such posters, things go on and noone would really care. However what if there were 5 such posters, would you still be inclined to visit the forum? What if there were 10? Are you prepared to let the forum be destroyed in the effort to stand up for free speech? Unfortunately, the way people are, the way society is, such opinios do not get drowned out automatically. In an ideal world the crazy ideas would simply die an ignomious death. It doesn't happen. Do you wait till the speech turns to action, which might possibly be too late?

[funkejay 0]

If I had such a selfish and myopic attitude, the forum would not have been liberated from the clutches of one of the (if not the most) crudest of moderators.

I have been away for quite some time and on coming back find a number of threads titled

[Autumnpuma 0]

I hear what you are saying, Cav, but the course you are on now will result in more rules or, at the very least, the current rules being implemented with more regularity. In both those cases free speech will not be served. Fairness would not be served either because you will have increased the input of the moderators who are capable of making mistakes. Increase their involvment and you have increased the chances of mistakes happening.

Far better, as I see it, to govern yourself in all matters and rely less on rules or the enforcement of rules. Consider: if you had deflected Ctrl300's comments like Quiet One did (with dignity and humor) you would not have been banned. YOUR reaction caused the ban and you are overlooking that by pointing to an 'unfair' moderator.

[goferrarigo 0]

I hear what you are saying, Cav, but the course you are on now will result in more rules or, at the very least, the current rules being implemented with more regularity. In both those cases free speech will not be served. Fairness would not be served either because you will have increased the input of the moderators who are capable of making mistakes. Increase their involvment and you have increased the chances of mistakes happening.

Far better, as I see it, to govern yourself in all matters and rely less on rules or the enforcement of rules. Consider: if you had deflected Ctrl300's comments like Quiet One did (with dignity and humor) you would not have been banned. YOUR reaction caused the ban and you are overlooking that by pointing to an 'unfair' moderator.

i'm not commmenting about the mod issue. (coz i haven't been here when all this happened)

but ctrl 300(our norwegian friend) was going way off the line with his comments. when i first registered in Jan i stayed for a while (abt 15 dyas) and saw ctrl 300 comments about NK and how rascist, distastful his posts were and left the forum, then in august(i think) i thought i will give it anohter chance and have stayed,(noticing ctrl 300 posting very less and now none(thaknfully)) so thus have continued to stay on and have found this place very nice

[pumpdoc 2]

i'm not commmenting about the mod issue. (coz i haven't been here when all this happened)

but ctrl 300(our norwegian friend) was going way off the line with his comments. when i first registered in Jan i stayed for a while (abt 15 dyas) and saw ctrl 300 comments about NK and how rascist, distastful his posts were and left the forum, then in august(i think) i thought i will give it anohter chance and have stayed,(noticing ctrl 300 posting very less and now none(thaknfully)) so thus have continued to stay on and have found this place very nice

Well the way I'm reading this matter is that we should all be alowed to flame away at each other decorum be dammed, well that would be freedom of speach now wouldn't it?

[goferrarigo 0]

Well the way I'm reading this matter is that we should all be alowed to flame away at each other decorum be dammed, well that would be freedom of speach now wouldn't it?

I have never argued for saying the forum should have complete freedom of speech,(sso why quote me?) I believe some control has to be kept to make this forum a nice place and a place which will keep people coming back... and rasicism or personal remarks should get a ban

[pumpdoc 2]

I have never argued for saying the forum should have complete freedom of speech,(sso why quote me?) I believe some control has to be kept to make this forum a nice place and a place which will keep people coming back... and rasicism or personal remarks should get a ban

Sorry AJ that post wasn't a response to your post

[goferrarigo 0]

Sorry AJ that post wasn't a response to your post

oh ok. no problem.

[Autumnpuma 0]

Well the way I'm reading this matter is that we should all be alowed to flame away at each other decorum be dammed, well that would be freedom of speach now wouldn't it?

Well, should and is are two different things. You're a mod and do the best you can to regulate the forum based on your judgement and Wes' instructions. Most have no problem with this and we all accept that sometimes the forum won't be moderated the way someone would like it to be. That being said, I like the current level of rule-enforcement and would hate to see greater rules implemented here for the sake of Cav's Crusade.

Personally, I'd like a completely open forum. There will be d!ckheads, but the better quality of person will be highlighted when looked at beside the d!ckhead. Of course, we have the niggling little detail of reality to deal with. In reality, this forum is the best I've seen for expressing the notion of 'free speech'.

[Quiet One 15]

Well, should and is are two different things. You're a mod and do the best you can to regulate the forum based on your judgement and Wes' instructions. Most have no problem with this and we all accept that sometimes the forum won't be moderated the way someone would like it to be. That being said, I like the current level of rule-enforcement and would hate to see greater rules implemented here for the sake of Cav's Crusade.

Personally, I'd like a completely open forum. There will be d!ckheads, but the better quality of person will be highlighted when looked at beside the d!ckhead. Of course, we have the niggling little detail of reality to deal with. In reality, this forum is the best I've seen for expressing the notion of 'free speech'.

I am 98% behind you on this one. The remaining 2% I keep because, as much as I enjoy freedom of speech, I think there are some boundaries that can be easily kept without restraining any of the fun and deep debates we are having here (see my previous examples, plus blatant racism a la Ctrl300 and similar, well-over-the-edge cases).

On the other side, I also think that at the present time there are no need for written rules. In fact, with the exception of Ctrl300 (I am even tired of typing his name) we have the space to discuss almost everything and then some, and we do. That's an amazing feat and for that, I can't but congratulate the mods. Just read the many controversial issues we are debating lately, which inspire high passions, yet we all act within reasonable patterns (with isolate exceptions) I want no rules that might jeopardize that. Common sense is more than enough. Yes, there might be acts perceived as unfair. Mods are human, thanks god. Still, on the average I think that the cost/benefit ratio is more than acceptable. I know I wasn't banned yet so I can't put myself on Cav's place, but I also think that we all showed our support and understanding for Cav's opinions. Trying to push this issue further until surrender with no conditions like Cav seems to be doing now is more a trait of his personality than a real issue.

Cav, I am sorry because despite the differences you are one of the persons I respect the most in this forum and I particularly enjoy your posts, but you already got many of the things you were requesting for. The issue about who and why closed your thread is irrelevant at this point (Ecap made it quite clear, it turned into a thread of personal attacks more than anything else and so it seemed to most of us). PD recognized his errors and backed up on them (which is a generous example that would not hurt you to follow) Yes, you will not get written rules, and yes, there will probably be more controversial situations to come, but not as many because we are all rather smart persons (I know counting myself amongst them is an overstatement ) Your latest posts seem to try to get you banned just to make some point, and that does not help neither the forum nor your basic principles on which most of us agree. Please, we want the old good-natured, stubborn but brilliant Cavallino back. Sometimes swallowing some pride and accepting to live with other persons POV (like PD, not Ctrl300) is a sign of greatness, not weakness. You are only as great as the things that annoy you. Don't get yourself too involved in this issue as if it was a life or death situation.

If any of this convinces you, what if I start insulting MS in any possible way so as to divert your attention? Would that help?

[goferrarigo 0]

If any of this convinces you, what if I start insulting MS in any possible way so as to divert your attention? Would that help?

If you insult NK the forum will explode.... try that for diversions, remeber are good ole 20 page thread??

[pumpdoc 2]

If you insult NK the forum will explode.... try that for diversions, remeber are good ole 20 page thread??

NK is not worth even a page anymore*ducks*

[Max Mosley 2]

Ooooh I'm teetering on the brink here guys......

[pumpdoc 2]

Ooooh I'm teetering on the brink here guys......

[goferrarigo 0]

NK is not worth even a page anymore*ducks*

*chucks something to hit PD while he ducked(in a not very nice place, the tent maker )*

after that violence i think and i agree he is not worth a page but another 20 or even the whole forum. it should be changed for his holiness

[Autumnpuma 0]

I am 98% behind you on this one. The remaining 2% I keep because, as much as I enjoy freedom of speech, I think there are some boundaries that can be easily kept without restraining any of the fun and deep debates we are having here (see my previous examples, plus blatant racism a la Ctrl300 and similar, well-over-the-edge cases).

On the other side, I also think that at the present time there are no need for written rules. In fact, with the exception of Ctrl300 (I am even tired of typing his name) we have the space to discuss almost everything and then some, and we do. That's an amazing feat and for that, I can't but congratulate the mods. Just read the many controversial issues we are debating lately, which inspire high passions, yet we all act within reasonable patterns (with isolate exceptions) I want no rules that might jeopardize that. Common sense is more than enough. Yes, there might be acts perceived as unfair. Mods are human, thanks god. Still, on the average I think that the cost/benefit ratio is more than acceptable. I know I wasn't banned yet so I can't put myself on Cav's place, but I also think that we all showed our support and understanding for Cav's opinions. Trying to push this issue further until surrender with no conditions like Cav seems to be doing now is more a trait of his personality than a real issue.

Cav, I am sorry because despite the differences you are one of the persons I respect the most in this forum and I particularly enjoy your posts, but you already got many of the things you were requesting for. The issue about who and why closed your thread is irrelevant at this point (Ecap made it quite clear, it turned into a thread of personal attacks more than anything else and so it seemed to most of us). PD recognized his errors and backed up on them (which is a generous example that would not hurt you to follow) Yes, you will not get written rules, and yes, there will probably be more controversial situations to come, but not as many because we are all rather smart persons (I know counting myself amongst them is an overstatement ) Your latest posts seem to try to get you banned just to make some point, and that does not help neither the forum nor your basic principles on which most of us agree. Please, we want the old good-natured, stubborn but brilliant Cavallino back. Sometimes swallowing some pride and accepting to live with other persons POV (like PD, not Ctrl300) is a sign of greatness, not weakness. You are only as great as the things that annoy you. Don't get yourself too involved in this issue as if it was a life or death situation.

If any of this convinces you, what if I start insulting MS in any possible way so as to divert your attention? Would that help?

A very fine post. I cannot improve upon it so I will exit this debate, and thread.

Ooooh I'm teetering on the brink here guys......

Dammit, isn't it bad enough that Ben relates his sexual exploits here? Do you really have to give us up-to-the-minute bulletins on your masterbation sessions????

[narain fan 0]

Hello Ashwin. Where've you been?

hope u are having a great time

[BradSpeedMan 6]

I am 98% behind you on this one. The remaining 2% I keep because, as much as I enjoy freedom of speech, I think there are some boundaries that can be easily kept without restraining any of the fun and deep debates we are having here (see my previous examples, plus blatant racism a la Ctrl300 and similar, well-over-the-edge cases).

On the other side, I also think that at the present time there are no need for written rules. In fact, with the exception of Ctrl300 (I am even tired of typing his name) we have the space to discuss almost everything and then some, and we do. That's an amazing feat and for that, I can't but congratulate the mods. Just read the many controversial issues we are debating lately, which inspire high passions, yet we all act within reasonable patterns (with isolate exceptions) I want no rules that might jeopardize that. Common sense is more than enough. Yes, there might be acts perceived as unfair. Mods are human, thanks god. Still, on the average I think that the cost/benefit ratio is more than acceptable. I know I wasn't banned yet so I can't put myself on Cav's place, but I also think that we all showed our support and understanding for Cav's opinions. Trying to push this issue further until surrender with no conditions like Cav seems to be doing now is more a trait of his personality than a real issue.

Cav, I am sorry because despite the differences you are one of the persons I respect the most in this forum and I particularly enjoy your posts, but you already got many of the things you were requesting for. The issue about who and why closed your thread is irrelevant at this point (Ecap made it quite clear, it turned into a thread of personal attacks more than anything else and so it seemed to most of us). PD recognized his errors and backed up on them (which is a generous example that would not hurt you to follow) Yes, you will not get written rules, and yes, there will probably be more controversial situations to come, but not as many because we are all rather smart persons (I know counting myself amongst them is an overstatement ) Your latest posts seem to try to get you banned just to make some point, and that does not help neither the forum nor your basic principles on which most of us agree. Please, we want the old good-natured, stubborn but brilliant Cavallino back. Sometimes swallowing some pride and accepting to live with other persons POV (like PD, not Ctrl300) is a sign of greatness, not weakness. You are only as great as the things that annoy you. Don't get yourself too involved in this issue as if it was a life or death situation.

If any of this convinces you, what if I start insulting MS in any possible way so as to divert your attention? Would that help?

good post the Quiet One...

come on Cav, you're one helluva intelligent guy and I do really enjoy your insightful post's.... as the Quiet One says...COME BACK the real and true Cav!

[dribbler 6]

What's needed here is a kind of group masturbation, hugging, beer drinking, smashing of heads together.

[Jean Todt 4]

hope u are having a great time

did u watch NK Storm in A1?

[funkejay 0]

Well the way I'm reading this matter is that we should all be alowed to flame away at each other decorum be dammed, well that would be freedom of speach now wouldn't it?

That's exactly what I'd like - but then, I realize that mine is an extreme view.......

[monza gorilla 1]

Canadian extremists are the worst kind.

[Max Mosley 2]

Dammit, isn't it bad enough that Ben relates his sexual exploits here? Do you really have to give us up-to-the-minute bulletins on your masterbation sessions????

Sorry Mike - I just get so excited sometimes....

What's needed here is a kind of group masturbation, hugging, beer drinking, smashing of heads together.

Yeah, everyone cum and join me!

[Quiet One 15]

Sorry Mike - I just get so excited sometimes....

Yeah, everyone cum and join me!

Maybe it's just my perception, but I think since Ben started with his sexual fantasies thread that all this began!

Ben, you sodomite! Look what you have done!

Sorry, my friend, no offense meant but i find the use of that word nowadays as highly hilarious! Not to mention the fire & brimstone preaching from HotRod! If that is being "normal" and people like Ben or Kay Zee are the ones with "disorders" then consider me part of the people with disorders! I reject your normality!!!

[dribbler 6]

Am i the only one seeing Murray Walker banging his bishop screaming "LOOK AT THAT!!"?