Lewis Hamilton : Petulant Child

[BradSpeedMan 6]

Were they? 8 of the first 10 were, except that all of them were set after lap 41, well after moRon had given his orders. If Alonso was so fast, why did he have to go on the radio and ask moRon to tell Lewis to slow down? Also Alonso's best laps were put in on a near empty car. Lewis never had a near empty car in the entire race. I am prepared to admit that Alonso was probably faster on race pace overall, not nearly as much as some Lewis haters and Alonso worshippers would like to bleive. However you don't need to be fastest to winm, you have to set the fastest qualifying lap, which Lewis did if you look at fuel adjusted times, make a good start, which he couldn't since moRon told him to hold up Massa at the start.

And Alonso was 2.9 and 2.6 seconds behind at the first and second stops, there is a good chance he would have made a fight out of it if he had been allowed to.

amen

[BradSpeedMan 6]

No, that's not the point. Noone is alleging that Mclaren should be punished, that's ridiculous. It would be great irony, and well deserved, but still ridiculous. What people do question is why Mcalren who claim to treat their drivers equally ( err where was I?), forced the driver who has been fastest for the past two races and was ahead in Australia before team orders intervened and was leading the championship on merit, forced him to run as a designated number 2 in qualifying and the race.

amen again

[Quiet One 15]

No, that's not the point. Noone is alleging that Mclaren should be punished, that's ridiculous. It would be great irony, and well deserved, but still ridiculous. What people do question is why Mcalren who claim to treat their drivers equally ( err where was I?), forced the driver who has been fastest for the past two races and was ahead in Australia before team orders intervened and was leading the championship on merit, forced him to run as a designated number 2 in qualifying and the race.

Excuse me, but...huh?

[Autumnpuma 0]

Kubica commented on new safety car rules at the beginning of the season, when he stated that the new rules force teams to load ONE of their cars with extra fuel in case the "lighter" car runs out under caution. That means that one of the drivers will ALWAYS be heavier for a couple of laps - just in the event of safety. No conspiracy, just team TACTICS. Duh!

This TACTIC hinges on the likelyhood of a Safety Car being deployed. It was not likely in Monaco, nor is it ever very likely. This is Formula 1, not ChampCar or NASCAR (where they throw a full-course caution and roll the SC when a driver farts). Local yellows happen alot, SC deployments less so. Think on that before you pop off with a 'Duh' or an eyerolling smiley.

Were they? 8 of the first 10 were, except that all of them were set after lap 41, well after moRon had given his orders. If Alonso was so fast, why did he have to go on the radio and ask moRon to tell Lewis to slow down? Also Alonso's best laps were put in on a near empty car. Lewis never had a near empty car in the entire race. I am prepared to admit that Alonso was probably faster on race pace overall, not nearly as much as some Lewis haters and Alonso worshippers would like to bleive. However you don't need to be fastest to winm, you have to set the fastest qualifying lap, which Lewis did if you look at fuel adjusted times, make a good start, which he couldn't since moRon told him to hold up Massa at the start.

And Alonso was 2.9 and 2.6 seconds behind at the first and second stops, there is a good chance he would have made a fight out of it if he had been allowed to.

Yup.

[aussief1 4]

I hope you don't really think that. 18 of the 20 fastest laps are Alonso's.. and he got a lead of 13 seconds before really cruising.

And after his first stop, he was 1 tenth of Lewis' pace... Like he was going to make up the gap going 1 tenth a lap faster.

And was told to cool it, which might of explained Lewis not setting fast laps let alone the fact that he was for the entire first stint carrying 5-6 laps more fuel than Fernando.

Fernando still won the race and drove well no question, heck I even gave Fernando "Driver of the day" So I'm not here bashing Fernando all i'm saying is that Lewis had his measure.

Lewis had his measure, nothing more nothing less.

Were they? 8 of the first 10 were, except that all of them were set after lap 41, well after moRon had given his orders. If Alonso was so fast, why did he have to go on the radio and ask moRon to tell Lewis to slow down? Also Alonso's best laps were put in on a near empty car. Lewis never had a near empty car in the entire race. I am prepared to admit that Alonso was probably faster on race pace overall, not nearly as much as some Lewis haters and Alonso worshippers would like to bleive. However you don't need to be fastest to winm, you have to set the fastest qualifying lap, which Lewis did if you look at fuel adjusted times, make a good start, which he couldn't since moRon told him to hold up Massa at the start.

And Alonso was 2.9 and 2.6 seconds behind at the first and second stops, there is a good chance he would have made a fight out of it if he had been allowed to.

Spot on.

[Autumnpuma 0]

Were they? 8 of the first 10 were, except that all of them were set after lap 41, well after moRon had given his orders. If Alonso was so fast, why did he have to go on the radio and ask moRon to tell Lewis to slow down? Also Alonso's best laps were put in on a near empty car. Lewis never had a near empty car in the entire race. I am prepared to admit that Alonso was probably faster on race pace overall, not nearly as much as some Lewis haters and Alonso worshippers would like to bleive. However you don't need to be fastest to winm, you have to set the fastest qualifying lap, which Lewis did if you look at fuel adjusted times, make a good start, which he couldn't since moRon told him to hold up Massa at the start.

And Alonso was 2.9 and 2.6 seconds behind at the first and second stops, there is a good chance he would have made a fight out of it if he had been allowed to.

That may have been the strategy* (I haven't seen any transcripts of the radio communications) but McLaren were so fast that they hardly needed to use this, and I would hesitstate to blame Ferrari's poor form throughout the race on it (I know you weren't, but I'm heading any attempts off at the pass); it became apparent that Ferrari had nothing for McLaren very quickly.

*I'm fine with this strategy, btw, no matter which team uses it.

[cavallino 2]

Sorry, I didn't make that clear, I meant block Massa at the start rather than try to get past Alonso.

[Autumnpuma 0]

Sorry, I didn't make that clear, I meant block Massa at the start rather than try to get past Alonso.

Ah...I see. Yeah, I agree that was probably the plan. A bit stupid though, but I suppose McLaren didn't know how dominant their flexible car was going to be around Monaco. The plan was probably to load Hamilton up heavier and tell him to block Massa and be a good #2 to Alonso until the first pit stop, then Lewis would have his chance to fight on light fuel. That probably sounded good to Lewis as he would have been confident in his ability to make up the time lost at the start...at least until McLaren screwed him. Without lube. Poor guy.

Now I wonder just what Hamilton's attitude is at the moment. He's matched Fernando in pace and points so far this season and is getting paid $500,000 for it (compared to Fernando's tens of millions). Lewis has just had it drilled into him that he's expected to support Fernando, much like DC was expected to support Mika. The team seems intent on siding with management in this.

Lewis now has a choice to make before Canada.

Does he bide his time this year, playing DC's role, hoping that McLaren history doesn't repeat itself in Fernando's favor, or does he conspire against McRon (much as JV conspired against Patrick Head so many years ago)? If he flies in the face of McRon, he may sacrifice his career, but he'll show his talent. The only things Ron could do with a defiant Hamilton would be 1) demote him to tester, 2) sell him (because we all know a team doesn't want a driver who doesn't want to be there) or 3) give in.

McRon won't give in, he's too stubborn to do that. Hamilton may be McRon's shining boy, but that will change quickly if Hamilton refuses to be #2. Everyone knows how good Hamilton is now, so offers are probably being drafted as we speak. Money is far more valuable than a contract in Formula 1 and it's very possible that Lewis is feeling underappreciated at McLaren right now...and the other teams know this.

I think Lewis makes decisions like he drives; gut feeling and go for it, no second thoughts. I don't think he'll stew about this for very long...Canada will be interesting and will show us what he has chosen to do.

[Piotr 0]

No cars may enter the pit lane until all cars have formed behind the safety car and "PIT LANE OPEN" is shown on the timing monitors.

Yeah, that's it! so you may have to travel more than one extra lap, so there is a possibility of running out of fuel, so at least one of the team's cars has to carry extra fuel, just in case.

[Piotr 0]

This TACTIC hinges on the likelyhood of a Safety Car being deployed. It was not likely in Monaco, nor is it ever very likely. This is Formula 1, not ChampCar or NASCAR (where they throw a full-course caution and roll the SC when a driver farts). Local yellows happen alot, SC deployments less so. Think on that before you pop off with a 'Duh' or an eyerolling smiley.

Ok, you are right EXCEPT that everyone on a one-stop tactic counted on a safety car, so actually it seems that this was very likely. (no smileys, see??)

[Schumikonen 2]

[quote name='cavallino' post='197597' date='Jun 1 2007, 08:53 AM']Were they? 8 of the first 10 were, except that all of them were set after lap 41, well after moRon had given his orders. If Alonso was so fast, why did he have to go on the radio and ask moRon to tell Lewis to slow down? Also Alonso's best laps were put in on a near empty car. [i]Lewis never had a near empty car in the entire race.[/i] I am prepared to admit that Alonso was probably faster on race pace overall, not nearly as much as some Lewis haters and Alonso worshippers would like to bleive. However you don't need to be fastest to winm, you have to set the fastest qualifying lap, which Lewis did if you look at fuel adjusted times, make a good start, which he couldn't since moRon told him to hold up Massa at the start.

And Alonso was 2.9 and 2.6 seconds behind at the first and second stops, there is a good chance he would have made a fight out of it if he had been allowed to.[/quote]

Excellent post.

[Schumikonen 2]

Don't be hard on McLaren - Coulthard

In his ITV-column, David Coulthard, the Red Bull Racing driver, said he thinks it's wrong of the British media to criticise McLaren over the 'team orders' controversy during the Monaco Grand Prix. The former McLaren driver believes that the team didn't do wrong by Hamilton as they have given him the opportunity to race in F1 and in a competitive car.

In his ITV-column, David Coulthard said: "A major talking point after the Monaco Grand Prix was the issue of team orders. Personally I think they are inevitable. You can pretend they don't exist, but in reality they are part and parcel of operating a grand prix team.

From the moment you get involved in a motorised sport with two competing drivers in the same team, you have to accept that at certain points there will be instructions or decisions that benefit one over the other.

Was it fair on Lewis to ask him to back off in Monaco? My answer is, what's fair? He has been given an opportunity to drive for one of the most successful teams in F1 which typically hasn't taken guys without experience before.

They could have farmed Lewis out to another team, where he would be doing a good job because he is a good driver, but where he wouldn't be making anywhere like the same impact he is now. McLaren is helping Lewis create the foundations of his future success, fame and fortune. So I don't think you can say they're not being fair.

The point is that Fernando was on pole and he led the race. People were surmising that, had the instruction to back off not come, then maybe Lewis could have reversed his position. But that is very tall order around Monaco.

The British media clearly felt Lewis had been hard done by. But I would say to them, don't be hard on McLaren because they have given Lewis the opportunity. They have given the media a potential British world champion this year. So don't turn around and make McLaren out to be the big bad racing team screwing the nice British driver. If the media wants to give Lewis the time to grow as a grand prix driver

[Quiet One 15]

This a very interesting point of view, looks like the only one how is wrong is FIA for banning team orders, DC's opinion is right but he forgot to mention that LH was leading the WDC and the most logical thing to do is to give the best strategy to the leader, nobody knows what can happen to FA in the future he can get some DNF and everything is lost for him then LH loose the WDC by just one point and nobody will forget Monaco 2007.

Nobody will forget it, anyways. That is why it was worse than a crime, it was a blunder. Not every little help for Schumacher was as outrageous as Austria 2002. Sometimes Barrichello suffered the same "bad pitstop disease" that Lewis had this time, and not always while he was leading. When those happened, they casted a shadow of doubt over Schumi's win, even if Barrichello was in no position to fight against MS for the lead. Team orders might be a natural thing and all that jazz, but they always give you the impression of manipulation and general unfairness. I am against team order's banning because you can't effectively apply such regulation, but I also think that, the more freedom the drivers have, the better.

[shampion 0]

Were they? 8 of the first 10 were, except that all of them were set after lap 41, well after moRon had given his orders. If Alonso was so fast, why did he have to go on the radio and ask moRon to tell Lewis to slow down? Also Alonso's best laps were put in on a near empty car. Lewis never had a near empty car in the entire race. I am prepared to admit that Alonso was probably faster on race pace overall, not nearly as much as some Lewis haters and Alonso worshippers would like to bleive. However you don't need to be fastest to winm, you have to set the fastest qualifying lap, which Lewis did if you look at fuel adjusted times, make a good start, which he couldn't since moRon told him to hold up Massa at the start.

And Alonso was 2.9 and 2.6 seconds behind at the first and second stops, there is a good chance he would have made a fight out of it if he had been allowed to.

I am not an Alonso fan but I still agree with what pumpdoc said in another thread:

!st no matter what once FA led into the first turn the race was decided.

2nd, Hammy was not about to get around FA on the track.

3rd, when Hammster pushed it he tagged the armmco.

4th and final Ron was right to tell the rook to cool it as they had 18 WCC points in hand.

NUFF SAID!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Spot on!

[shampion 0]

.....This a very interesting point of view, looks like the only one how is wrong is FIA for banning team orders, DC's opinion is right but he forgot to mention that LH was leading the WDC and the most logical thing to do is to give the best strategy to the leader, nobody knows what can happen to FA in the future he can get some DNF and everything is lost for him then LH loose the WDC by just one point and nobody will forget Monaco 2007.

The thing is... I believe the "supposed" team orders that happened in Monaco, will not happen on any other circuit that has High speed straights and allow for passing.

Atleast, I don't believe it would happen again until only one driver is shooting for the WDC with the rest of the circuits to come.

I truly believe McLaren doesn't care which driver wins the WDC ... ideally they just would love to have their drivers finish one and two in the WDC and the team win the constructors.

In Canada, I think McLaren will let them both go for the WDC as long as it doesn't compromise the teams' lead in the constructors championship. I hope this is how it will go down.

[Schumikonen 2]

The thing is... I believe the "supposed" team orders that happened in Monaco, will not happen on any other circuit that has High speed straights and allow for passing.

Atleast, I don't believe it would happen again until only one driver is shooting for the WDC with the rest of the cicuits to come.

I truly believe McLaren doesn't care which driver wins the WDC ... ideally they just would love to have their drivers finish one and two in the WDC and the team win the constructors.

In Canada, I think McLaren will let them both go for the WDC as long as it doesn't comprimise the teams' lead in the constructors championship. I hope this is how it will go down.

I guess the use of the word "supposed" means that you still don't believe there was team order in this race even when RD said that he HAD to decided in advance, anyway RD said "there will be circuits where they are aloud to race each other" but he never said that Monaco will be the only track where they are not aloud to do it, so I am not so sure that this will not happen again, DC said about team order "they are inevitable" so probably you will have a little more of the same this year, I only wish to have team order as legal again, so we don't complain about this again but right now teams are breaking the rules if they use them as DC and RD said.

[AleHop 0]

All that is easy to clarify at Canada GP.

But Hamilton wouldn't have passed Alonso no matter what. Alonso controlled the whole race from lap one to the end while Hamilton was on the edge of crashing.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j4633yau3uc

[Jean Todt 4]

This a very interesting point of view, looks like the only one how is wrong is FIA for banning team orders, DC's opinion is right but he forgot to mention that LH was leading the WDC and the most logical thing to do is to give the best strategy to the leader, nobody knows what can happen to FA in the future he can get some DNF and everything is lost for him then LH loose the WDC by just one point and nobody will forget Monaco 2007.

Yeah! We can expect a lot of guns pointing Ron if that happens.

[pabloh20 1]

All that is easy to clarify at Canada GP.

But Hamilton wouldn't have passed Alonso no matter what. Alonso controlled the whole race from lap one to the end while Hamilton was on the edge of crashing.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j4633yau3uc

Is that supposed to show Hamilton nearly crashing or something?

[reds88 0]

Good post by schumikonen on DC's point of view. I gotta say I agree with DC. I love hamilton, he is a superb talent, but if I'm going to put my money on someone to driver's championship from mclaren, it will more likely be Alonso. Mclaren has shown a lot of faith in hamilton by giving him that seat in the team, so he should show a bit more patience in return. (I think he does have patience, I disagree with claims that hamilton is whining.)

I also dont think Mclaren is the only team who is applying these sort of team orders, indirect ones. I reckon other teams could and might already have used team orders, only thing is we dont know about it. There is a big fuss about mclaren because we know about it.

I also agree with shampion, I dont think mclaren had any preference for any of their driver. They just want the constructors title. The last time they won was in 1997 or 1998 if I'm not mistaken, correct me if I'm wrong.

[Piotr 0]

how would've it been his fault????? If mclaren were found guilty, then its mclarens fault!!!

He opened his whiny mouth about it. If he didn't like it, he should have talk to Ron in private. He is obviously not a team player, because he worries more about his own reputation than about the team's performance. That's pretty juvenile.

[Piotr 0]

Good post by schumikonen on DC's point of view. I gotta say I agree with DC. I love hamilton, he is a superb talent, but if I'm going to put my money on someone to driver's championship from mclaren, it will more likely be Alonso. Mclaren has shown a lot of faith in hamilton by giving him that seat in the team, so he should show a bit more patience in return. (I think he does have patience, I disagree with claims that hamilton is whining.)

I also dont think Mclaren is the only team who is applying these sort of team orders, indirect ones. I reckon other teams could and might already have used team orders, only thing is we dont know about it. There is a big fuss about mclaren because we know about it.

I also agree with shampion, I dont think mclaren had any preference for any of their driver. They just want the constructors title. The last time they won was in 1997 or 1998 if I'm not mistaken, correct me if I'm wrong.

Well, we know that in BMW, Theissen let's drivers race (his comment to Kubica in 2006 : "Pass the Heidfeld, Robert"), but only when it suits his purposes (widely accepted opinion he used Kubica to push Heidfeld to actually reach his potential). But in general I agree with your opinion.

[Piotr 0]

All that is easy to clarify at Canada GP.

But Hamilton wouldn't have passed Alonso no matter what. Alonso controlled the whole race from lap one to the end while Hamilton was on the edge of crashing.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j4633yau3uc

I read about it as well. Hamilton was all out and probably could not go any faster.

[Chris Strange 0]

Don't be hard on McLaren - Coulthard

The British media clearly felt Lewis had been hard done by. But I would say to them, don't be hard on McLaren because they have given Lewis the opportunity. They have given the media a potential British world champion this year. So don't turn around and make McLaren out to be the big bad racing team screwing the nice British driver. If the media wants to give Lewis the time to grow as a grand prix driver

[AleHop 0]

Good idea. Put him in a Spyker and he'll complain he's number 22.

Yes, he is number 2 just because Alonso is number 1 by wining las year.