Mclaren Stealing Ferrari Secrets?

[Jez 0]

Wow thats a fair bit revealed in that article. I wonder how reliable some of it is. Very interesting though, there's many layers to this scandal. I can't wait to see how it all unfolds! I have to admit, I'm a big McLaren fan. It's upsetting to see this happen to them. I want to think the best of Ron and the team but when this occurs I'm not sure what to think.

[Autumnpuma 0]

My sarcasm was not an attempt to belittle you, Mike, so apologies if it caused offence.

Ah, I missed the sarcasm. Perhaps it was this post below that put a different spin on your comments:

It's because of a higher level of wooden spoons and piles of sh!t in the world, apparently.

Sh!t-stirring? Me? Sometimes, but not now. I'm curious, though, if your sh!t-stirring comment can be extended to Russ as well or was meant soley for me? Hmm....

[dribbler 6]

Ah, I missed the sarcasm. Perhaps it was this post below that put a different spin on your comments:

Sh!t-stirring? Me? Sometimes, but not now. I'm curious, though, if your sh!t-stirring comment can be extended to Russ as well or was meant soley for me? Hmm....

In the grand scheme of things, my belief is that this whole so called scandal is nothing more than a mild brew ha ha. There must be exchanges of information, knowledge, little nudges, lots of "don't tell anyone i told you, but...." It's such a tigh knit community, everyone knows everyone else.

I may be wrong but i bet that this whole tale blows over and nothing comes of it. All this talk of the championship crumbling into disrepute is just wishful thinking by spin doctors who like a bit of fuss about nothing.

It was not my intention to imply that you are a sh!t stirrer. It was not aimed at you, not aimed at Russ, not aimed at anyone in particular,but at the same time aimed at everyone who fails to see this for what it is.

I may eat my words and if i do, please grill me, i'll deserve it.

[Autumnpuma 0]

If you are saying that 'nothing' will come of this, then I'll grill those words for you with a bit of onion, garlic, a sprig of rosemary and a splash of Stella. I think Stepney and Coughlan, very valuable employees for a team to have in their payroll, will be out of F1. That has ramifications that in the end benefit Ferrari and, perhaps, McLaren. Why? Because these two guys would have joined Honda and made that team stronger.

[Quiet One 15]

If you are saying that 'nothing' will come of this, then I'll grill those words for you with a bit of onion, garlic, a sprig of rosemary and a splash of Stella. I think Stepney and Coughlan, very valuable employees for a team to have in their payroll, will be out of F1. That has ramifications that in the end benefit Ferrari and, perhaps, McLaren. Why? Because these two guys would have joined Honda and made that team stronger.

Ok, I will follow your line of thought, please let me know if I stray from the path:

1) McLaren and Ferrari know that two VIP employees are engaged in negotiations with Honda.

2) One (or both) of the teams think that it would give Honda an advantage they are not willing to give to the japanese team.

3) So, they plot this scandal to take both players out of the picture.

Am I right so far?

If yes, I have this objection: why didn't they wait until these guys moved to Honda and only then crush them without involving McLaren orf Ferrari into this scandal?

If it is because they were afraid these guys might be leaking info to Honda already. Why not plot some scheme to discredit them and Honda intstead of their own teams?

Again, the official version makes no sense to me, so maybe your version is the correct one. However, your version has holes, too.

I believe Roswell has some connection with all this. Edgar Hoover, too. I wouldn't rule out the possibility of the annoying biker frog being the mastermind...oh, well!

[aussief1 4]

If you are saying that 'nothing' will come of this, then I'll grill those words for you with a bit of onion, garlic, a sprig of rosemary and a splash of Stella. I think Stepney and Coughlan, very valuable employees for a team to have in their payroll, will be out of F1. That has ramifications that in the end benefit Ferrari and, perhaps, McLaren. Why? Because these two guys would have joined Honda and made that team stronger.

Honda are the big losers yep.

I wonder if Nick Fry actually knew anything or nothing about this whole saga?

I think that it has been reported that he claims he knew nothing but I would like to bet that is a lie. Why would a Mclaren employee and a Ferrari employee take the risk if there was a chance the grand plan might not work, and Nick Fry and Honda reject NS & MC on one moral grounds and two the risk of Honda being dragged through the mud if this where to ever get out.

Ok, I will follow your line of thought, please let me know if I stray from the path:

1) McLaren and Ferrari know that two VIP employees are engaged in negotiations with Honda.

2) One (or both) of the teams think that it would give Honda an advantage they are not willing to give to the japanese team.

3) So, they plot this scandal to take both players out of the picture.

Am I right so far?

If yes, I have this objection: why didn't they wait until these guys moved to Honda and only then crush them without involving McLaren orf Ferrari into this scandal?

If it is because they were afraid these guys might be leaking info to Honda already. Why not plot some scheme to discredit them and Honda intstead of their own teams?

Again, the official version makes no sense to me, so maybe your version is the correct one. However, your version has holes, too.

I believe Roswell has some connection with all this. Edgar Hoover, too. I wouldn't rule out the possibility of the annoying biker frog being the mastermind...oh, well!

You raise some good points.

[Autumnpuma 0]

First off, Andres, your sequence of events counts McLaren as a co-conspiritor. I don't believe they were...I was just throwing a slim possibility out there that they might have now found it in their best interests to side with Ferrari in this.

I suppose any theory will have it's holes but like most things in life, it's a matter of size. How big are the holes in question? All events are not equal and some have a higher likelihood of being true than others. I could certainly be wrong here because it could be just what it looks like: Stepney gives Coughlan a package of drawings in preparation to their defection to Honda.

But,

Why would Stepney need the drawings in the first place? No team could use any of the parts in those drawings for their cars. The value is in the theories that led to Ferrari's designs...what aero/weight distribution/ect, problems the drawings solved. That knowledge would be in Stepney's head so why would he need the potentially incriminating drawings floating about? Also, with Ferrari's legendary security, how do sensitive designs leave the factory in the hands of a man Ferrari have begun to isolate? Now throw in the fact that Stepney "knows where the bodies are buried" at Ferrari. So.....it seems likely to me that Ferrari would set Stepney up.

Why drop the documents with Coughlan? Would it be such a stretch to imagine that Ferrari knew both men had worked together in the past? Would Ferrari have been able to see them chatting and possibly meeting with Nick Fry? In such a small, inbred paddock, I don't imagine these things to be too far-fetched.

I'm a cynic. I believe that to figure out the motivation of people, you need only follow the money. Formula 1 teams make their money from TV revenues, which are determined by where they place in the championship. Bigger advertisers will sign for the successful teams that place higher in the championship, so you can lump this in with the other as well. If we follow the money, then it's in every F1 team's best interests to knock down the competition by any means that is allowed by the team owner's concience. I find it easy to believe that Ferrari could set Stepney up for prosecution that effectively gets him out of F1. In order to implicate Stepney, the documents would have to be left with someone, so who better than the man Stepney had worked with before and that he met with recently...and that happened to be a key McLaren designer. Kill two birds with one stone, so to speak.

How does McLaren F1 fit into this? I'm sure they acted on Coughlan's info about the Ferrari floor, as any team would, without caring really where the info came from. That sort of thing is considered a 'tip-off'. I think that after this blew up in the press they became aware of Coughlan's desire to leave McLaren. McLaren, like Ferrari, would not want their competition to gain from Coughlan and Stepney's expertise, so they could now be assisting Ferrari in implicating both men. I find this a stretch, however, because I don't think Ron Dennis would do this kind of stuff 'off-track'. To be honest, I would believe that from Ferrari. Bias? Maybe, so take it all with a grain of salt.

That was a bit long-ish, but I hope my ideas came across better the second time!

[Max Mosley 2]

Well I have no idea what really happened. Does anyone think we will find out the truth? Personally I don't really trust anything we are told in F1. Probably the people involved will stitch up some sort of compromise that protects their own interests, and we will be none the wiser.

[Autumnpuma 0]

I'd be willing to bet that Ferrari do their best to send Stepney to prison...or at least force him to settle to avoid prison, with one part of the settlement agreement stipulating that he cannot talk about anything during his years at Ferrari and cannot be employed by a rival team.

Whatever happens, I don't expect Stepney to be back in F1.

In the end, nobody really knows, but why should that stop us from speculating?

[Max Mosley 2]

Well I didn't say it should stop you from speculating. If you enjoy it, that's fine. But personally I don't find it that interesting to speculate about something that isn't that important and that we're not going to find out about for several years. Even then we may not get the truth. But I agree with you to the extent that the teams certainly use all sorts of underhand tricks, like eavesdropping on radio communications, hiring photographers to look at the other cars etc.

I personally prefer to speculate about political (or intellectual) issues, like whether we should raise taxes say or invade Iran, because then you can often find out the answer in a few years, there is more hard evidence and the issues are more interesting and important.

[Autumnpuma 0]

But personally I don't find it that interesting to speculate about something that isn't that important and that we're not going to find out about for several years.

Isn't that important? In the narrow focus of this forum, it's of huge importance to F1 and will affect the very sport you watch and post about! Two top teams have just lost two highly skilled, team-shaping employees. The ramifications of this will be felt almost immediately.

Forgive my lack of humor lately, Murray, but I seem to have lost it. I tried to get by without it, but in the end I decided to buy another one on ebay. I don't have enough money to afford an English sense of humour, or even a ribald Scottish one, but I did secure a Slovakian sense of humor for a really good price. It's very new and has hardly been used! I suppose I could have gotten a German sense of humor for cheaper, but even I have standards.

[Max Mosley 2]

Isn't that important? In the narrow focus of this forum, it's of huge importance to F1 and will affect the very sport you watch and post about! Two top teams have just lost two highly skilled, team-shaping employees. The ramifications of this will be felt almost immediately.

Yeah true but I meant in the grand scheme of things, not in the "narrow focus" of this forum. If people like to speculate there are better things to do it on than F1. As you know I mainly like the driver side of the sport and I don't think scandals and intrigue like this add much to the sport. Just my preference though I suppose.

Forgive my lack of humor lately, Murray, but I seem to have lost it. I tried to get by without it, but in the end I decided to buy another one on ebay. I don't have enough money to afford an English sense of humour, or even a ribald Scottish one, but I did secure a Slovakian sense of humor for a really good price. It's very new and has hardly been used! I suppose I could have gotten a German sense of humor for cheaper, but even I have standards.

You're doing OK there Mike! (I have noticed a change of humour recently though I must admit. Not that that's a bad thing, just different. Sometimes I get fed up with some people too!)

[Silas Talbot 0]

I'm sure everyone saw the article today entitled "McLaren rocked by new allegations"... cute, for the first two paragraphs, then just tiring.

The F1 news sites really seem to go all-out with their headlines to try to get those click-throughs... You can't trust a single one of them!

"Alonso wants to eat Hamilton's Family"

[dribbler 6]

If you are saying that 'nothing' will come of this, then I'll grill those words for you with a bit of onion, garlic, a sprig of rosemary and a splash of Stella. I think Stepney and Coughlan, very valuable employees for a team to have in their payroll, will be out of F1. That has ramifications that in the end benefit Ferrari and, perhaps, McLaren. Why? Because these two guys would have joined Honda and made that team stronger.

The implications for Stepney and Coughlan will be significant, for sure, but i meant in terms of the bigger picture; this years championship. The longer term affect on Mclaren could of course be significant too.

"Alonso wants to eat Hamilton's Family"

[NeoData 0]

Found this on some website.

[Silas Talbot 0]

I'm sure everyone saw the article today entitled "McLaren rocked by new allegations"... cute, for the first two paragraphs, then just tiring.

Found this on some website.

<attachment=1276:McLaren_spy_saga_1.jpg><attachment=1277:McLaren_spy_saga_2.jpg>

Yep NeoData, that would be the article which tried my patience.

[freaky2 1]

Yep NeoData, that would be the article which tried my patience.

Yeah, actully it can be found in here

[NeoData 0]

Yeah, actully it can be found in here

Now she tells us

[Quiet One 15]

@Mike: your theory really started looking like a real conspiracy theory! I like it!

Now it actually makes more sense than the official version.

Btw, I feel like you too, Mike. My sense of humour is not what it used to be. All I could afford, though, was the sense of humour from an ex KGB agent.

I am not laughing.

[monza gorilla 1]

I, on the other hand, am in a constant state of hysterical laughter*. This is due to my superior, original equipment, English sense of humour**. And reading threads on the forum.

*may be a lie.

**free on the National Health Service, and activated by large quantities of alcohol

[monza gorilla 1]

Are Ferrari capable of setting Stepney up? Of course. Stereotypical Italian behaviour. Have they set him up? Haven't a clue. Am I intersted? Yes. My curiosity knows no bounds. I'm especially curious as to how such supposedly bright people are supposed to have made such amateurish blunders. I thought that only happened at Brackley.

[Autumnpuma 0]

Are Ferrari capable of setting Stepney up? Of course. Stereotypical Italian behaviour. Have they set him up? Haven't a clue. Am I intersted? Yes. My curiosity knows no bounds. I'm especially curious as to how such supposedly bright people are supposed to have made such amateurish blunders. I thought that only happened at Brackley.

That was even funny to my newly-bought Slovakian sense of humor!

[Halfie 0]

Will the motorsport council just look at the issue of whether any Ferrari intellectual property is on the car?, or will they also look at if Mclaren hold any information such as testing data, performance data etc.? I fear if its the latter Mclaren will actually end up being found guilty as the mere posessions of the materials means that they may have held a distinct advantage over their rivals. Admittedly I dont even feel that Mclaren are guilty and I am a huge Mclaren supporter, it just seems that they may be found guilty by the very nature of them posessing the documents.

However I expect if they were found guilty and faced a harsh sanction they may just race under appeal or similar and this will be an F1 championship decided in the courtroom come the end of the season...

[BradSpeedMan 6]

If you are saying that 'nothing' will come of this, then I'll grill those words for you with a bit of onion, garlic, a sprig of rosemary and a splash of Stella. I think Stepney and Coughlan, very valuable employees for a team to have in their payroll, will be out of F1. That has ramifications that in the end benefit Ferrari and, perhaps, McLaren. Why? Because these two guys would have joined Honda and made that team stronger.

How??? How would they have sold that info to Honda? Showed them Mclaren and Ferrari confidential blueprints with stamps? Or suggested info, if so, how would Honda believe them?

So many questions....

[kuskor 0]

I am not getting how Ron can be 100% certain that no parts were used on his car. Maybe all the parts Mclaren introduced were planned updates and in development during the offseason? A more obvious explanation would be that he was aware of the whole thing and gave specific instructions for no parts to be used. More biased speculation would be that had a chance to compare the blueprints with the current Mclaren, or had someone else do it? Or maybe he has had assurances from someone else in the team? One can only speculate. Most stuff that has been written about this has been speculation anyway.

The only fact so far is that the blueprints were found in the possession of Mclaren Chief designer, who obviously has something to say about which way the development of the Mclaren goes. If this information was used and Mclaren didn't extract an advantage of it then I can't imagine any sort of information about Ferrari that would give them an advantage. Or maybe one can believe that he didn't look at the blueprints, or maybe he did but didn't find anything interesting? Or would only going as far as copying a whole part and putting it on the Mclaren constitute gaining an advantage?

A scenario where Ferrari would send their blueprints to Mclaren chief designer just to start an investigation and incriminate him or Mclaren would probably be way down the list of possible explanations. After they knew about itof course, they were definately going to do whatever they could to use the whole thing to their advantage, wouldn't any team?

As far as objectivity goes, turn the whole thing around and speculate that the Mclaren blueprints were found in possession of the Ferrari Chief designer and the Ferrari would say he was acting on his own and that no parts were used and then convince the FIA... Nowadays there is way too much money into F1 to judge events based on individuals' characters only, or maybe I should say their image as presented through the media.

That's my (maybe slightly Ferrari-based) opinion.

I don't think Mclaren will be punished. I would like this thing to be over as fast as possible, it only diverts attention from the track.